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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 8:15:01 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Americans or maybe western culture wastes a lot of time and emotion trying to get the other sex to become just like them. Men and women are different. A wealthy man will almost always pick the playboy model looking secretary over a lawyer who is older and not as good looking. A woman will almost always pick the lawyer who is balding and overweight over the factory employee who looks like George Clooney.



I agree that we should quit expecting the sexes to behave like each other, but I hardly agree that all men want lasting relationships with the playboy bunny. Men are more like women in this regard than you think, men want someone that is mature, intelligent, shares similar values, and comes from the same generation as they do as they get older very often. There are men that are still wanting to pee in the gene pool and therefore they are directed by their penis and not their intellect, but to think that it is the rule is a huge generalization.

I have looked at many profiles vanilla and otherwise when I was looking, and most men on even the vanilla sites were looking for 1)age height proportion 2) personality traits they find desirable 3) usually not wanting someone over 10 years younger than themselves 4) not wanting someone more than a year or two older.

Of course men are attracted to the young hot thangs, but that does not mean they are thinking about a lifelong relationship with one. Just an observation.

And I have dated a lawyer, only once, his personality sucked so I blew him off. He was not fat though.... give me George Clooney's personality on any man and I would probably find that guy attractive, he is more than a hunky guy.. he is smart, kind, liberal, and talented... and that is one hot combination without being pretty on top of it...smiles.

_____________________________

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 8:17:28 AM   
Morrigel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
However, their ideal partners, men in their age group who earned enough to satisfy them, looked for women a generation younger than who were less demanding and....well, younger! Tastier, more nubile, better looking etc.


And as soon as women learn to do the same, we will not have to hear any more bullshit about it, I'm sure.  There are plenty of younger, more submissive men in the world who would love to live in the home of a successful older woman, do the household chores, and dedicate their lives to pleasing her.  As soon as the stigma of female dominance and male submission is banished from this ridiculously bigoted and sexually repressive society, all these women will figure out that what they are really looking for is the same thing that their male counterparts are looking for--a submissive.  They need an attractive partner who has a positive, pleasant attitude and is sexually appealing, who is attentive and loving, who understands the importance and value of the work the dominant partner does and takes whatever actions are necessary to support it and make life easier/better for all concerned.

What they DON'T need is an intractable jackass who brings nothing to the table but his inferior income, his inability to understand what the phrase "division of labor" means, and his patriarchal society's sense of entitlement.    "Why should I have to take care of the kids?  Why should I have to do the dishes?  Why should I clean the house?"  Well, because you work at home, hon.  Women have worked at home for thousands of years--and it has always been WORK.  Usually much harder work than anyone does at an office.

Regardless, I'm sure all these executive women will be a lot happier as soon as they stop looking for "equals" and start looking to get their needs met.  There are plenty of male submissives--younger, the same age, older--who would have no problem with an arrangement like this, and who would hold up their end of it very well indeed.

--M

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 8:18:26 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Its not just LTRs this affects - friendships too, fall by the wayside when one person earns more than the others.

The lower earners will look to the higher earner to help them out once too often. They become jealous of the higher earner.

The higher earner will resent being expected to come to their friends' aid. They will feel like they are wanted as a friend purely for their money.

The higher earner leaves these friends (or is expelled) and finds new friends who are more on the same earning level.

But the problem is of course, there is always someone who earns more (or less) than you. And as careers develop, friendships are dropped and taken up as one moves up the earnings ladder.

I wonder why we are all, (lower and higher earners alike), so much more obsessed by money and possessions, rather than interested as we should be, in friendships and social networks that can last a lifetime.

I guess the problem is, that whilst money can be reckoned and compared, love cannot. Love is of an indeterminate, subjective value, which varies according to the value we place on it, according in turn to our need for it at any one time, and how much we are prepared to give at any one time.

But ultimately, money counts for nothing, for without love we are always homeless and hungry.

E

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 8:18:51 AM   
LTRsubNW


Posts: 1604
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Status: offline 		Ya know, all these people picking on Meat (interesting that it's all women doing so), the fact is, he's more right than wrong.

The reason why jokes common to everyone are funny is...because...there's more than a grain of truth in them.

It isn't just an old wives conundrum that after the honeymoon, sex drops off precipitously...it happens all too often and more often than any man would ever agree to.

On another note, someone once told me, a woman, as she arrives at the church, the doors open, she's there in all her splendor, the first thing she see's is the aisle.  The next, the altar, lastly, you.

And all the way down towards the front she's thinking "aisle, altar, you....aisle, alter, you....I'll alter you".

And but for a very few exceptions...ladies...that is the way it works.

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 8:31:57 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Ya know, all these people picking on Meat (interesting that it's all women doing so), the fact is, he's more right than wrong.



Well here is the deal, I am not picking on him, I think it is wonderful he knows where his head is and is not promising women things he cannot deliver... kudos to him...

About rightness or wrongness... statistically speaking men that are married live the longest

Men that live with their significant other live longer than bachelors

Men that live alone have the shortest lifespan

compare this to:

Women who are married live less longer to women that live alone...

I wonder who has the best deal when it comes to marriage?

And about the sex thing, I feel it is my duty (a pleasurable one) to please my mate. Even if I am not in the mood to orgasm it is still wonderful to please my mate that way. I realize men have a certain amount of time before they have prostrate problems, and libido problems... and I want to make sure my mate gets to enjoy whatever sexual vigor he possesses. Maybe he will never lose his vigor, God I hope so because my sex drive has always been pretty high. It is a generalization that women won't put out after the honeymoon, I know of several women in my age group that have had the opposite problem, being horny with a husband that has no sexual desire...

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(in reply to LTRsubNW)
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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 8:34:04 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

"Why should I have to take care of the kids?  Why should I have to do the dishes?  Why should I clean the house?"  Well, because you work at home, hon.  Women have worked at home for thousands of years--and it has always been WORK.  Usually much harder work than anyone does at an office.


Actually this is a myth spread by feminists. The economic relationship between men and women like everything else throughout history has been in a state of flux. Unfortunately faiths originating in the middle east wrongly support the view that women have always been subjugated by men, as does marriage used as a business contract by the rich or a diplomacy tool by monarchs but for ordinary people this has rarely been the case.

A typical example was fishing societies on the north east coasts of England where the men would go out to sea to catch the fish and the women traveled around the country and marketed the community's catch and governed the community's economy. Women have often had their own businesses since the black death destroyed the feudal system. There were many female soldiers that fought in the English Civil war. Pre-Victorian times a woman often changed partners and men often looked after other men's children as their own. Many Southern European travellers were shocked at how free north European women were and particularly shocked by the freedom of English women to own and run businesses and travel unchaparoned around the country. The industrial revolution put paid to many of these freedom as it put paid to many male freedoms. It is the current belief in materialism that subjugates most women and not men.

The little that is known about pre-christian north European Germanic tribes appear to support the idea that women where far more free than they were later under christianity. There are plenty of archeology and other evidence supporting the belief that land ownership by women was not uncommon and suing for divorce was not uncommon and keeping their property rights through marriage and holding property after divorce.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/2/2006 8:41:07 AM >

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 8:36:11 AM   
Morrigel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW
The reason why jokes common to everyone are funny is...because...there's more than a grain of truth in them.


Some of us don't find the jokes funny.  Nor do we find the "grain of truth" to be anything more than a commonly disseminated lie.

quote:

It isn't just an old wives conundrum that after the honeymoon, sex drops off precipitously...it happens all too often and more often than any man would ever agree to.


This notion stems from the day and age where most women would not find out how shamefully inadequate their men were in bed until after their wedding night.  If sex with most women rarely involved an orgasm for most men--their desire to engage in the activity would also drop off markedly, and they would probably also spend a lot of time reading porn that involved frequent male orgasm.  (Women call this sort of porn a "romance novel".)

Women who DO achieve orgasm every time with their partners seldom lose their interest in the activity.  If anything, their sexual appetites tend to increase with age, until the point of menopause--which comes long after the "honeymoon", for most women.  ;)

As for the rest of this misogynous horseshit--ugh.  Guess what?  Both parties need to make changes and compromises for ANY long-term relationship to work.  If they cannot do what is necessary to fit together, make one another happy, and get all the work done, the relationship is going to collapse.  There's no one aspect of the partnership that can be permanently neglected--at the end of the day, food needs to be prepared, the home needs to be tolerably sanitary, the kids need to be cared for, the bills need to be paid, and everyone needs to have their sexual needs met.  Anything that DOESN'T get done becomes a debt that will build up over time...and will eventually crush the good things in the relationship.

The fact that some men view the thought of changing or compromising to make a marriage work as an "offense" against their manliness is just disgustingly stupid and juvenile.  Ditto with this idiotic notion that women who fight their way up the corporate ladder and work a 60-hour week should be thrilled to come home from their high-pressure jobs and provide submissive service to a lazy jackass, male OR female, who can't be arsed to wash a dish, change a diaper or run a vacuum once in a while.  Their male counterparts don't put up with that crap.  Why should women?

--M


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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 8:43:14 AM   
Morrigel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Actually this is a myth spread by feminists. The economic relationship between men and women like everything else throughout history has been in a state of flux.


It's not entirely a myth, I'm afraid.  Nor is the fact that working the home front is hard work a myth, whether perpetuated by feminists or not.  If it was so easy to take care of all domestic responsibilities, after all, you would have breezed right through it.

The amount of work that people do in any given society often shows in their bones long after death.  I have seen the effects of hard, constant labor in the bones of ancient women that date back thousands of years--from the moment agriculture was invented, in fact.  The industrial revolution is a boon to women generally, in my opinion, because a sizable percentage of the hardest and most constant work in ANY society has always fallen to women--especially if it was also low-status and low-paying.

--M

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 8:54:09 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		There are very few cultural universals in this world, but more often than not women have been the ones to stay around the campfire and take care of the children. It makes sense that a woman that is fertile will not be expected to go away from the home and take care of business. She has little ones to care for, pregnancies, and nursing of the young. While there are exceptions to the rule of women being around the hearth, by and large most cultures have done what makes sense economically.... men hunt the game, travel to the neighboring village for trade, and do the heavy work... women stay at home and work from sun to sun (women's work is never done)

_____________________________

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 8:55:51 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Actually this is a myth spread by feminists. The economic relationship between men and women like everything else throughout history has been in a state of flux.


It's not entirely a myth, I'm afraid.  Nor is the fact that working the home front is hard work a myth, whether perpetuated by feminists or not.  If it was so easy to take care of all domestic responsibilities, after all, you would have breezed right through it.

The industrial revolution is a boon to women generally, in my opinion, because a sizable percentage of the hardest and most constant work in ANY society has always fallen to women--especially if it was also low-status and low-paying.

--M


I suggest you read the testimonies of women in the fight to ban women from working in the coalmines and other heavy industries in the industrial revolution (supported by women of the time). Women were exploited to the maximum in industrial revolution. It was the chartists and other left wing groups that liberated women from the back breaking work of the time, to protect them from worked induced miscarriages or other minor ailments such as balding, collapsed wombs, ruptured breasts. To say that the industrial revolution was good for women is a perversion of what happened to women in the industrial revolution. The fact that people fought for and got reform which later made life better for women by banning employers using them for heavy labour and allowing more women to stay at home was not an act of subjugation, even if it later became to be seen that way.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/2/2006 8:57:33 AM >

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 9:13:26 AM   
LTRsubNW


Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline 		What's hilarious is, looking at all the feminist movement articles of the 70's ("wanting it all...why can't we have it all?"), now we read about how (men, of course) have ruined it for women (who found out that having it all sucked) just want to work less, raise children (blah, blah blah) but of course...they can't because (men) have ruined it all for them, forcing them now to work to support the lifestyle that (of course, men) wanted.

Just one more valid reason why today so many more men are much less likely to be interested in marriage.

I for one would love to get married...but to go through what I (and millions of other men) have gone through...well, let's just say it's not only cheaper, but vastly more peaceful...to rent hahahahahahahahahaha.

Let the (male) bashing BEGIN!!!!!

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 9:13:39 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel
The industrial revolution is a boon to women generally, in my opinion, because a sizable percentage of the hardest and most constant work in ANY society has always fallen to women--especially if it was also low-status and low-paying.

--M


Since the industrial revolution this has been true. Before the industrial revolution the majority of people lived on the land and outside a cash based economy and therefore there is no cash measurement of labour for the average person. In the towns there were many female crafts such as seamstresses, milleners etc. In fact you can cheack the guild records and recrds in the chambers of commerce based in many English towns and find evidence of significant numbers of women making a rather good living.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/2/2006 9:14:53 AM >

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 9:17:12 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Have you had children, Morrigel?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

Women who DO achieve orgasm every time with their partners seldom lose their interest in the activity.  If anything, their sexual appetites tend to increase with age, until the point of menopause--which comes long after the "honeymoon", for most women.  ;)

(in reply to Morrigel)
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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 9:20:18 AM   
ornjkitty


Posts: 27
Joined: 11/5/2006
Status: offline 		I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that what meatcleaver resents about his ex is NOT her higher earning potential, but the fact that she was so greedily and rapaciously consumerist that she spent twice as much as she earned, and expected him to make up the difference, just because he has a penis.

Which only goes to show that higher earning potential is not necessarily the same thing as fiscal responsibility!!!!!

And isn't it true of any relationship -- if you aren't getting as much out of the relationship as you are putting into it, the relationship is doomed to fail.  It doesn't have to be the same commodity (money, sex, work, whatever).  Sometimes it can be as simple as "If you spend eight hours cooking a fancy dinner, I'll put the dishes in the dishwasher for you." 

By the same token, anyone who spends more money than they earn is going to end up in the poor house eventually (and probably drag as many other people along for the ride as they can).

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 9:31:03 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

What's hilarious is, looking at all the feminist movement articles of the 70's ("wanting it all...why can't we have it all?"), now we read about how (men, of course) have ruined it for women (who found out that having it all sucked) just want to work less, raise children (blah, blah blah) but of course...they can't because (men) have ruined it all for them, forcing them now to work to support the lifestyle that (of course, men) wanted.

Just one more valid reason why today so many more men are much less likely to be interested in marriage.

I for one would love to get married...but to go through what I (and millions of other men) have gone through...well, let's just say it's not only cheaper, but vastly more peaceful...to rent hahahahahahahahahaha.

Let the (male) bashing BEGIN!!!!!


I have been serially monogamous from the age of 19 on.  I do not mind being married.  I am enjoying living alone, but at times I miss having a person here with me.

The reason I have gotten into relationships in the past had nothing to do with the woman's earning power.  I tend to approach life with a "whats mine is ours" attitude, although I will be the first to say that at this stage of my life it takes quite a bit of work to get me to the point where I will engage in a relationship that close.

If I want a relationship with somebody, how we get there are all just details.  I work hard for what I have, and I do not mind taking care of her since she is taking care of me as well.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 9:33:17 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I've got to agree ornjkitty. As a society we are not subjugated by men or women depending on which sex you are, both sexes are subjugated by materialism. We are happy to see our time which is the most valuable asset we have appropriated by our materialist ambitions and then blame everyone but ourselves for being in the position we are in.

No woman is worth compromising to the tyranny of materialism for and if I was a woman I would say no man is worth it either. As the saying goes, a shroud has no pockets. I have long given up on the idea of being an alpha male if being an alpha male requires my subjugation to a woman's material needs.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/2/2006 9:34:35 AM >

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 9:35:16 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I've got to agree ornjkitty. As a society we are not subjugated by men or women depending on which sex you are, both sexes are subjugated by materialism. We are happy to see our time which is the most valuable asset we have appropriated by our materialist ambitions and then blame everyone but ourselves for being in the position we are in.



I have had this argument with most of the people in my life at one time or another.

Money is just money, stuff is just stuff.

I have things I want to do with the time I have been gifted with here, and I will be damned if I let somebody else waste it...

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 10:34:03 AM   
Morrigel


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Joined: 10/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Women were exploited to the maximum in industrial revolution.


You've missed my point.  Women have been exploited to the max in every era of history.  The fact that remains that a majority of women in industrialized societies nowadays are not suffering from extensive bone damage by the age of 35 because they have to spend many hours a day grinding grain between two stones.  Or scrubbing endless miles of floors and kitchens on their knees.  Or trying to grind the filth off a pile of dirty cloth diapers by scraping them against a washboard for hours.

Industrialization makes many common tasks much easier, regardless of who is assigned to do them.  Heck, being a housewife or a parent is easy enough nowadays that a man can almost do it--! 

--M

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 10:35:06 AM   
Morrigel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Have you had children, Morrigel?


Yes.  Two daughters.

--M 

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RE: Successful Women Begrudge Husbands Who Earn Less, S... - 12/2/2006 10:56:54 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Women were exploited to the maximum in industrial revolution.


You've missed my point.  Women have been exploited to the max in every era of history. 



Delusional fantasy.

One can frame ones reference to prove anything.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/2/2006 10:57:25 AM >

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