RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem

RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

Dtesmoac -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 7:13:58 AM)
As well as living out here and travelling a lot for work I have also ried to read quite a lot of US books on topics that I have a European knowledge of and my work involves dealing with a wide spectrum of society and locations. The "sell your mother for a profit" is quite correct but you missed of the ...then use a small proportion of that money to going into a fund invested in your company to help her raise money to buy her freedom again, claim tax back on that donation and then go to the local church and proclaim that you are a virtue of Christian values by trying to empower your mother to buy back her freedom........... lol. There not all like it but the number of comapnies set up to sell trash, and the amount of efort that goes into people trying to get you to buy trash and the insincerity of the sales technique is breathtaking. I nearly got linched the other day when some bloke was going on about the wonders of the US and on his third rendition of "...in this great nation, the best place on earth to live , that God.....". I simply asked where else he had lived and informed him that such statements were only spoken by Americans that had never lived anywhere else,.....he didn't like the idea of an alternative perspective, "if the world thinks that then the worlds wrong, you shold love it or leave it." I was able to assure him that I was going to be leaving it in the ear future. It's a shame really because there is quite a lot that I like but the overal limited culture and prejudice, are my over riding takes on the place, plus the fantastic space and coutnry side, o yes and petty beurocrats that make the EU commsion seem positively reasonable.

pollux -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 7:52:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac I was able to assure him that I was going to be leaving it in the ear future. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 8:58:00 AM)
LOL.... it won't

FirmhandKY -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 6:04:06 PM)
I decided not to be a smartass tonight.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/22/2006 6:07:36 PM)
Another Emory University Prof comes out against Carter and his book. When the book first came out, Dr. Kenneth Stein the Middle East Fellow of the Carter Center of Emory University resigned over the book. Today, another Emory prof published an opinion piece in the Atlanta Constitution and Journal. This time, it was Emory anthropology professor Melvin Konner. Extracts: A former president whose legacy has rested on bringing about peace between Arabs and Jews has turned his back on that to become a partisan. A man whose Christian values made him see both sides in a tragic conflict has become blind to one side's suffering. A man who walked in paths of peace has now become an obstacle to peace. For me, it means the loss of one of my greatest heroes. I have never allowed a snide remark about Jimmy Carter's "failed" presidency to pass without contradicting it. I have said countless times that he is the greatest former president, setting a new standard for that role. I don't recognize Carter any more. I am afraid of him now, for myself and for my children. He has not just turned his back on the balance and fairness that all peacemaking depends on. He has become a spokesman for the enemies of my people. He has become an apologist for terrorists. *** FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/22/2006 10:39:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Another Emory University Prof comes out against Carter and his book. When the book first came out, Dr. Kenneth Stein the Middle East Fellow of the Carter Center of Emory University resigned over the book. Today, another Emory prof published an opinion piece in the Atlanta Constitution and Journal. This time, it was Emory anthropology professor Melvin Konner. Extracts: A former president whose legacy has rested on bringing about peace between Arabs and Jews has turned his back on that to become a partisan. A man whose Christian values made him see both sides in a tragic conflict has become blind to one side's suffering. A man who walked in paths of peace has now become an obstacle to peace. For me, it means the loss of one of my greatest heroes. I have never allowed a snide remark about Jimmy Carter's "failed" presidency to pass without contradicting it. I have said countless times that he is the greatest former president, setting a new standard for that role. I don't recognize Carter any more. I am afraid of him now, for myself and for my children. He has not just turned his back on the balance and fairness that all peacemaking depends on. He has become a spokesman for the enemies of my people. He has become an apologist for terrorists. *** Don't you think that Stein might have a special interest here because he is Jewish? If Stein believes the US has been fair in the middle east by bank rolling and condoning Israel's war crimes as defined by the UN then his opinion is worthless.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/23/2006 11:28:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Another Emory University Prof comes out against Carter and his book. When the book first came out, Dr. Kenneth Stein the Middle East Fellow of the Carter Center of Emory University resigned over the book. Today, another Emory prof published an opinion piece in the Atlanta Constitution and Journal. This time, it was Emory anthropology professor Melvin Konner. Extracts: A former president whose legacy has rested on bringing about peace between Arabs and Jews has turned his back on that to become a partisan. A man whose Christian values made him see both sides in a tragic conflict has become blind to one side's suffering. A man who walked in paths of peace has now become an obstacle to peace. For me, it means the loss of one of my greatest heroes. I have never allowed a snide remark about Jimmy Carter's "failed" presidency to pass without contradicting it. I have said countless times that he is the greatest former president, setting a new standard for that role. I don't recognize Carter any more. I am afraid of him now, for myself and for my children. He has not just turned his back on the balance and fairness that all peacemaking depends on. He has become a spokesman for the enemies of my people. He has become an apologist for terrorists. *** Don't you think that Stein might have a special interest here because he is Jewish? If Stein believes the US has been fair in the middle east by bank rolling and condoning Israel's war crimes as defined by the UN then his opinion is worthless. meat, You know, that is an amazing conclusion. Stein was the first professor, who worked closely with Carter for years, co-authored and earlier book in the Middle East with Carter, and was Carter's brain trust on the Middle East. He resigned after reading Carter's latest book, and has listed some of the major and minor discrepencies in that book. The second professor - quoted above - also works at Emory, and my post was part of his comments (I gave a link to the entire thing). What I find interesting is that you, in effect, discount anything either professor has to say ... just because they are Jewish. You don't address their specific complaints, you simply dismiss them .. because they are Jewish. "He's a Jew. He's lying." "He's a Jew. Obviously he has an agenda." Making conclusions based on someone's group affiliation, race, or religion, and not on the facts of their words ... what's that called? FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/23/2006 1:44:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY "He's a Jew. He's lying." "He's a Jew. Obviously he has an agenda." Making conclusions based on someone's group affiliation, race, or religion, and not on the facts of their words ... what's that called? Aah. You are one of those! Can't win an argument, brand you opponent a racist or something. With Stein being Jewish I would expect him to have sympathies with the Israeli state, it seems quite rational to me, even if he agreed or disagreed with Israel's policy. With Carter changing his opinions on Israeli policy, I would imagine he has alienated many prominent American Jews, however there are many prominent Jews in Europe that while sympathizing with the Israeli state share similar views to Carter and oppose Israeli policy towards the Palestinians. Jack Straw, the former British Foreign Minister for one amd Gerald Kaufman a former British Minister is another, Edwina Curry a former British minister is another and she has vehememtly criticized Israel. So FUCK YOU ARSEHOLE!

losttreasure -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/23/2006 2:11:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Aah. You are one of those! Can't win an argument, brand you opponent a racist or something. With Stein being Jewish I would expect him to have sympathies with the Israeli state, it seems quite rational to me, even if he agreed or disagreed with Israel's policy. With Carter changing his opinions on Israeli policy, I would imagine he has alienated many prominent American Jews, however there are many prominent Jews in Europe that while sympathizing with the Israeli state share similar views to Carter and oppose Israeli policy towards the Palestinians. Jack Straw, the former British Foreign Minister for one amd Gerald Kaufman a former British Minister is another, Edwina Curry a former British minister is another and she has vehememtly criticized Israel. So FUCK YOU ARSEHOLE! You are rich. shakes head So... you're saying that there can be Jews in Europe that sympathize with the Israeli state and who share similar views to Carter... and that's okay. But... Jews in America that sympathize with the Israeli state but feel Carter's views are wrong... their opinions are worthless. Did I get that right? Why does it matter where the Jews are? What I question is not whether you are anti-semitic, but whether you are anti-American. As far as racist... well, you said that, not FirmHandKY. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Don't you think that Stein might have a special interest here because he is Jewish? What he simply pointed out was that you are sterotyping. Just because someone is Jewish doesn't automatically mean that they are sympathetic to Israel... anymore than someone who is not Jewish is automatically unsympathetic to Israel.

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/23/2006 2:29:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: losttreasure You are rich. shakes head So... you're saying that there can be Jews in Europe that sympathize with the Israeli state and who share similar views to Carter... and that's okay. But... Jews in America that sympathize with the Israeli state but feel Carter's views are wrong... their opinions are worthless. Did I get that right? Why does it matter where the Jews are? What I question is not whether you are anti-semitic, but whether you are anti-American. As far as racist... well, you said that, not FirmHandKY. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Don't you think that Stein might have a special interest here because he is Jewish? What he simply pointed out was that you are sterotyping. Just because someone is Jewish doesn't automatically mean that they are sympathetic to Israel... anymore than someone who is not Jewish is automatically unsympathetic to Israel. Stein said,... He has not just turned his back on the balance and fairness that all peacemaking depends on. He has become a spokesman for the enemies of my people. He has become an apologist for terrorists. An opinion is an opinion is an opinion. Firmhand brought Stein up as some sort of expert yet what Stein says is pure opinion without any basis in fact and as worthless or valuable as anyone elses opinion. I dismiss it as an opinion and FKY comes back and accuses me of racism. I merely pointed out that there are prominent Jews on this side of the Atlantic while sharing Stien's obvious sympathies with the Israeli State, share Carter's analysis of the negative effect of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians. Why does it matter where Jews are? It doesn't, only is so far that it appears from here that average American Jews like average Americans are more right wing in general than Europeans so it comes as no surprise to me Carter is attacked by American Jews and not attacked by European Jews. To reiterate, Stein's response to Carter's book is no surprise, hell, even Carter knew he would get shit in America for it because as he says, America is totally uncritical of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians even though Israel's policies creates the terrorists they purport to be against. Though Palestinian terrorists play into the hands of the Israeli right, which is probably why they are happy to create them.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/23/2006 2:59:18 PM)
meat, Please go back and read my post about the opinion piece posted in the Atlanta Constitution and Journal closer. You seem to be confusing the two professors. Stein is the professor who resigned, had worked closely with Carter and has given examples of errors, ommissions, confabulations and other errors in Carter's book Konner is the professor who wrote the opinion piece quoted above. I think you are confusing the two. Now, however, I think treasure has a valid point. Why is it, that Jewish people who agree with Carter have "no agenda", yet Jews who disagree with him obviously have an agenda and should be ignored? FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/23/2006 3:08:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Now, however, I think treasure has a valid point. Why is it, that Jewish people who agree with Carter have "no agenda", yet Jews who disagree with him obviously have an agenda and should be ignored? I didn't say Jews who opposed Carter's analysis had an agenda or any more of an agenda than Jewish people who agreed with Carter's analysis. It is just opinion and not a surprising opinion given that there is no criticism of the Israeli state in its oppression of the Palestians in America. I have read the New York Times and Washington Post often enough to know the difference between how the news is reported there and here. The middle east is also our backyard and even more so should Turkey join the EU where it is of strategic interest to the USA so I would expect a big difference in opinion, Jewish or not. It doesn't make one racists by dismissing someones opinion which is merely an opinion.

luckydog1 -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/23/2006 5:23:54 PM)
Actually I think dismissing an opinion, because of race is indeed racism.

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/24/2006 3:45:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Actually I think dismissing an opinion, because of race is indeed racism. Suit yourself luckydog1 Anti-semitism is an often used tool to shut criticism up about Israel's policies towards the Palestinians. Who just happen to be semetic too.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/24/2006 5:42:25 AM)
Why does it matter where the Jews are? What I question is not whether you are anti-semitic, but whether you are anti-American. Losttreasure The idea of anti-American is quite interesting, does having an opinion that differs from the commonly held view of normal within another society make someone anti-that society? Someone that has different values to you and sees either a different or wider perspective on an issue may or may not be anti-you. What I find interesting with the US is that "why does everyone hate us" & "we need to be armed to protect ourselves from our government" are coments I have repeatedily heard here and seen on message boards, but not in other countries. One indicates paranoia that you are out to be got by them foreigners and the other is paranoia that your out to be got by them bad american politicians. The actions of American not Americanism is why even friends of the US now have problems in being actively pro-american. Does Carters book really advocate positive support for the destruction of Israel as implied by some coments or recognition that never critisicing Israel is anti-Islamic and equally racist to being anti-semitic? Storng words anti- ........... More emotinal than factual.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/26/2006 1:21:15 AM)
Dtesmoac, "Anti-American" is - in my opinion - a bit different from "anti-name-your-nationality-anywhere else-in-the-world". In most countries of the world, you are simply born into a culture, that is also a nation-state, and is generally ethnically fairly homogenous. I think one can make a very strong argument that being an "American" is more an act of free-will than in any other nation-state. We have such a wide variety of ethnic groups, religions, cultures and other assorted mixes of humanity that being "American" is more an acceptance of general principles and beliefs. It is more an act of will, than of birth. Since we tend to define as "American" in such a culture context, there is two interesting by-products of this unusual method: 1. We have people from all over the world who have came to this country, and became citizens i.e. Americans. It's my experience, that such immigrants often understand the principles and culture beliefs that they are accepting better than many citizen-by-birth Americans. Generally, these people are accepted as "American" to an extent uncommon in other nations. 2. Some native born citizens reject those "general principles and beliefs" and are therefore labeled "Anti-American". It's a cultural oddity, that many citizens from other countries have difficulty in understanding, and (I'm sure) that some Americans will themselves deny, but it's a fairly well-recognized difference between America, and most other nations in the world. FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/26/2006 2:57:25 AM)
OK. I accept that wikipedia is not the best source of data but according to it, 80.04% of the US population is white. Take out the Hispanics it is 67% white. Blacks 13%, Native Americans a little over 1%. With the acceptance of the 1% Native Americans the make up not too disimilar from the old Imperial European countries, though I admit the whites in that situation would be largely from the same culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States The US isn't unique in people becoming a citizen of an idea in as much as a country. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa (South Americas?) have a similar situation to deal with, all have dealt with it in their own way so how the US deals with it is unique to the US.

losttreasure -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/26/2006 4:08:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac The idea of anti-American is quite interesting, does having an opinion that differs from the commonly held view of normal within another society make someone anti-that society? ...Storng words anti- ........... More emotinal than factual. I agree that it is more emotional than factual. In fact, that's really the point... it is an attitude based on emotions and not one of fact. In a broader sense, the anti-American sentiment that I refer to isn't the dismissing of a person because you disagree with their opinion. It is dismissing the value of a person or their opinion based solely on the fact that they are American. It is quite simply a prejudice.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/26/2006 5:42:40 AM)
In most countries of the world, you are simply born into a culture, that is also a nation-state, and is generally ethnically fairly homogenous. I think one can make a very strong argument that being an "American" is more an act of free-will than in any other nation-state. We have such a wide variety of ethnic groups, religions, cultures and other assorted mixes of humanity that being "American" is more an acceptance of general principles and beliefs. It is more an act of will, than of birth. Interesting concept it being an act of will. The pledge of allegiance at school may have a big impact here, I have been surpised at the peer pressure placed on non american children to conform with this, even if they are only in the country for a short period with no intention of becoming "americans". Perhaps this is the staring point for the Love it or Leave it stance that is sometimes displayed alongside US flags. Other countries have multi ethnic groups often from past defeated / absorbed communitites and whilst the requirement to be the same as the dominant nation drove certain policies in the past, in many "westernised countries" such pressures have now disapated. e.g. in the UK submerging cultures beneath a "British" nationality or the Basques in France / Spain, whilst in others they have not. If you compare with the American experience, the US also used enforced cultural change on Native Americans. Since we tend to define as "American" in such a culture context, there is two interesting by-products of this unusual method: 1. We have people from all over the world who have came to this country, and became citizens i.e. Americans. It's my experience, that such immigrants often understand the principles and culture beliefs that they are accepting better than many citizen-by-birth Americans. Generally, these people are accepted as "American" to an extent uncommon in other nations. What would you consider as these core principles and cultures? 2. Some native born citizens reject those "general principles and beliefs" and are therefore labeled "Anti-American". I hear the term Libertarian and Liberal used quite derogatively on channels such as Fox, and therefore possibly also implied as being Anti-American. It's a cultural oddity, that many citizens from other countries have difficulty in understanding, and (I'm sure) that some Americans will themselves deny, but it's a fairly well-recognized difference between America, and most other nations in the world. I have formed a view of what I consider to be cultural traits of americans but there are substantial regional differences. I see far bigger differences between other nations than for example between the US and many European nations. FirmKY

Dtesmoac -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/26/2006 6:08:12 AM)
Lost I agree that it is more emotional than factual. In fact, that's really the point... it is an attitude based on emotions and not one of fact. Is it the American or the Foriegner that brings up the term or thinks within the context of being Anti-American? My perception is that within the US there is an ingrained belief that "our" way is the best, it is the only good way and why would others not wish to follow it? A foreigner looks at issues for example, Iraq, Kyoto, Corporate Responsibility, Waste & resource use, the importance placed upon religoen, the verbal skills of the Leader, brow beating of the UN, etc, etc, where the US differs with their own core values or beliefs. When this difference is expressed some americans take it as an attack on their Americanism, rather than it being the result of the actions / inactions of the US government and corporations. In a broader sense, the anti-American sentiment that I refer to isn't the dismissing of a person because you disagree with their opinion. It is dismissing the value of a person or their opinion based solely on the fact that they are American. It is quite simply a prejudice. I think this can be turned the other way round. Within the US individual citizens who actually have a very limited direct experience and exposure to the world make anti-others, decisions based upon little or no experience. For example if you watch Fox because it agrees with your views and have never been outside of for example Nebraska, you may genuinly believe that the US health care system, power system, transport system, employement rights system etc is the only way for an advanced cournty to go. You may also believe that technologically you are far advanced of every other part of the world. You will not realise that your health care costs you personnally more than many other countries, the Car you drive is old technology and contributes to climate change in a larger scale than others with a similar standard of living elsewhere, your mobile phone does not work everywhere because of the competition situation in the US, whilst on another continent all service providers must carry all other providers signals therefore ensureing connection. On of the funniest questions I have had was a 30 minute discussion about whether there was running water in London. There is an ingrained anti-non Americans culture within significant arts of the US which is almost never acknowledged. It is not based on rascism but a superiority complex that many Americans have about their country and themselves. When then questioned it can flip into the reverse, a perception that the world is Anti-American. As individuals many Americans and Non Amricans get along very well, but for the last 6 to 8 years multiple American decisions have created friction with citizens of a a more self confident rest of the world.

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.0625