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RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:18:10 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Safewords are a communication tool that is all they are and all they can ever be, they are not a magic word.
They will not protect you from intentional harm, what they will do is give a way to communicate actual distress physical mental or emotional.

If both parties are flying a little bit then sometimes it might escape notice that your breathing has shifted from deep and processing to deep and distressed. Also it can be fun to scream NO NO NO stop I hate you, yo're killing me, and know that it will not cause them to stop and ask OK you still doing fine????

(in reply to LuciusAestus)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:19:01 PM   
Lady Alaria


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		Yeah, going to have to chime in here and agree that in rape/primal/forced play, safewords are utterly vital. And it's still quite possible for a sub to feel like they have no control, perhaps even be terrified on a deep level, because, as many couples never use the safeword, as they never need to, there is no certainty in the subs mind that things would stop even if they called it. There is also the knowledge that crying wolf is a great way to ruin a good playpartnership, So most folk aren't going to call RED unless they really -have to-.

That said, the whole Yellow style safewords aren't so vital, and can get in the way. they might be nice in the getting to know you stage, but most people seem to ditch em pretty quick. 'Cept in those top from the bottom relationships(which, btw, can work quite well..for some).

(in reply to LuciusAestus)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:21:54 PM   
Aine


Posts: 820
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline 		Gawd...I hate playing this card.

But to the OP:  As you yourself have stated, you don't know a lot.  You're young, you're in the -very- early stages of learning about this lifestyle.  Heed what those here have to say.

Especially about safety/safewords, etc.

If you were to look further into it, I'm sure you'd find many a post about scenes that have gone wrong because of exactly what you're speaking against, as though everyone is or should be psychic.

There's a thing called headspace.  Both for the Dom/me or Sadist and the sub/slave or masochist.  Reality tends to fly right out of the window when people are in the headspace.

I don't care how experienced a person might be, things can happen, and it's always best to err on the side of caution.  Safewords are a useful tool when used properly.


_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:22:33 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
It is good to know upfront which dominants don't use safewords though. It's something to show beginners who to avoid.


quote:

 
akisha
That is an excellent thing for all single submissives to know right up front.   Those that like permanant damage or serious injury know whom to go to. LOL


These are the kinds of statements that practically set me on fire. I know we have been through this about a thousand times on this board. I know I have posted many real life examples of how safewords complicated a scene and actually caused an unsafe situation. But heck, it's a topic I feel strong enough about to revisit.

Just because someone uses safewords does not make them safer than the next. Just because someone doesn't use safewords doesn't make them dangerous. I personally, will not play with anyone who insists upon using a safeword and can't seem to grasp the concept of open communication and it's effectiveness.

If you wish to use, believe and trust your life into the magical power of safewords....by all means, do so. But please don't tout them to newbies as the be all end all, one true way and if anyone disagrees they are a danger.



I never said it was the end all and be all for goodness sake. But really, if a person isn't going to respect a "mayday" or some other agreed upon signal, then how will they know when they've gone to far? To me, it completely breaks the mood of a rape scene to go "Honey, that hurts in a bad way, can you do something else?"

Safewords, also, are open communication. You might like to just say during a scene "Oww, that's bad, stop." Others might like to say "yellow." It's the same thing, only you are saying a phrase and they are saying a word.



_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:24:06 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Also it can be fun to scream NO NO NO stop I hate you, yo're killing me, and know that it will not cause them to stop and ask OK you still doing fine????


Excellent point! During a harsh scene I frequently scream "no" and other various words at my partner. Without an actual safeword, how would he know when I'm playing and when I'm serious?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:30:42 PM   
wilycoyote


Posts: 1
Joined: 12/4/2006
Status: offline 		Safe words are just what they are a way for me to feel safe.. if I am playing with someone, someone knew or not necessarily I play with all the time. I did not use a safe word with my previous owners. For me if I cannot trust you enough not to hurt me, they I should not be playing with you.. or should not be owned by you

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:33:30 PM   
LuciusAestus


Posts: 26
Joined: 12/12/2006
Status: offline 		Meh, this is derailing a bit too far for me. I regret making the safeword comment in the first place. And right now I'm too tired to think of anything to say to defend myself. I would never in any way do something that may hurt someone I bear love for, and if you don't believe that, you need to shut up.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:34:34 PM   
MissUnleaded


Posts: 60
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline 		I've always considered safewords as something that give my significant orderer piece of mind.  He knows it's there and that I can use it if I have to.  Therefore, he's not afraid of misjudging a situation and inadvertantly going too far as a result.  The reality is that I've never played with anyone who was unable to tell when a situation was causing me real distress or harm.  I'm not into casual scening.

As far as the original post, I would love to do some rape simulation scenes which get really rough but have not had a boyfriend/dom that was into that.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:35:45 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Also it can be fun to scream NO NO NO stop I hate you, yo're killing me, and know that it will not cause them to stop and ask OK you still doing fine????


Excellent point! During a harsh scene I frequently scream "no" and other various words at my partner. Without an actual safeword, how would he know when I'm playing and when I'm serious?


Are you kidding me? You don't know how to communicate what actually goes wrong but you could come up with abracadabra or banana? What would you do if something bad had gone wrong and you were panic stricken and couldn't remember that safe word? What would you do if you were in subspace and couldn't verbalize that word? What would you do if the only word you could get out of your mouth was something along the lines of "my hip, my hip, I think I broke my hip!"....but your Dominant was waiting to hear "fuzzy slippers" and wouldn't stop?

I'm not talking about trying to figure out what the word "no" means. I'm talking about communicating. And I disagree that coded words are open and forthright communication...they are coded communication.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:36:09 PM   
PONYSEEKER


Posts: 364
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		I can understand you shyness however once you start taking the baby steps at the begining then ultimatly the sub generaly finds themselves saying things like that. Do whatever it is that makes you happy of course but things evolve into something from nothing ... its hard to explain you have to experience it.  But there is no set way or rule book.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:37:50 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Sigh, hate to see a nice forceplay thread degenerate into a rehash of the safe word debate.

Forceplay is one of the few instances I'd recommend a safeword merely because it can be much harder to denote if she's shrieking "CRAMP!" as a real issue or if it's just a tactic to get you off guard.

As always, as long as everyone is on the same page before the scene and sticks to that page, then the scene works out great.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:44:01 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuciusAestus

Meh, this is derailing a bit too far for me. I regret making the safeword comment in the first place. And right now I'm too tired to think of anything to say to defend myself. I would never in any way do something that may hurt someone I bear love for, and if you don't believe that, you need to shut up.


Well, to be fair a bunch of people responded with "yeah we like force play". Accidents happen and people always hurt people they love. You can't just say it will never happen. Any relationship will show you that. Just because it's not on purpose doesn't mean it won't happen.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LuciusAestus)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:46:50 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Also it can be fun to scream NO NO NO stop I hate you, yo're killing me, and know that it will not cause them to stop and ask OK you still doing fine????


Excellent point! During a harsh scene I frequently scream "no" and other various words at my partner. Without an actual safeword, how would he know when I'm playing and when I'm serious?


Are you kidding me? You don't know how to communicate what actually goes wrong but you could come up with abracadabra or banana? What would you do if something bad had gone wrong and you were panic stricken and couldn't remember that safe word? What would you do if you were in subspace and couldn't verbalize that word? What would you do if the only word you could get out of your mouth was something along the lines of "my hip, my hip, I think I broke my hip!"....but your Dominant was waiting to hear "fuzzy slippers" and wouldn't stop?

I'm not talking about trying to figure out what the word "no" means. I'm talking about communicating. And I disagree that coded words are open and forthright communication...they are coded communication.


It's all in how to do safewords. My opinion is that if a dominant isn't going to listen to a safeword, then they aren't to listen to anything I say. It's not the specific safeword most of the time (for me and those I know anyway) it's the concept. For me it's always mayday. That's my "ask no questions, get me the fuck out now." Minor adjustments are always "My hair!" or, like you said "My hip!"

Why are you so opposed to a simple word that just means "Too much going on to explain, get me out now!"?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:50:33 PM   
Aine


Posts: 820
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline 		While that's a wonderful sentiment, and one that I agree with to an extent.....

It's not hard to accidentally shift and hit a bad spot when in full swing of a s/m scene.  It's happened to me with my boyfriend.  At which point I generally let out a strained yelp, roll over and physically put a stop to the play for a moment to clarify what spot should be avoided during our spank play.

We don't have safewords.  I don't feel the need for one just yet in our relationship.  Our play doesn't get quite as involved as others does, headspace is a hard thing for either of us to reach right now so there's no real fear of getting "lost" in the sensations to the point of not being able to communicate.

Though once our play and relationship progresses more to that point, then the talk of a safeword will happen and a decision will be made.  I have no doubt that in a lot of situations that a safeword (whether or not used) is a good idea though.


_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

(in reply to wilycoyote)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:52:46 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuciusAestus

Anyone tried/enjoy this?

Allow me to explain. I don't really like the obedience part of a BDSM situation. I find it stupid with submissives saying "Yes Master/Mistress" all the time. I don't see the thrill in something being done by the command of another if the one commanding has no direct influence over the one being commanded. I find pure obedience only practiced because of the desire for it to be silly (but that is just my opinion, so please don't take offence from it).

Would it not be fun if the submissive, when tied up, instead of screaming "Fuck me hard, Master!", would struggle against the ropes and grit teeth in anger? This is at least what I find myself enjoying the thought of most. There may still be something I like about obedience, but I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

I'm sure there's more I should write, but my head is empty for now.



Well, I'd say in a purely Ds or Ms relationship, for most people, disobedience gets tiring very quickly.

Struggling can be hot in a specific scene or context but frankly if I want a struggle, I can get that daily out in the vanilla and mundane world.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to LuciusAestus)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 2:57:28 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Why are you so opposed to a simple word that just means "Too much going on to explain, get me out now!"?


I really don't want to completely overtake this thread with this debate. There are tons of threads where we have debated this safeword issue to death. Threads where I have given very clear, real life examples of safeword failures. I am opposed because I believe that they are touted to newbies as a must have. I am opposed because I believe they promote a false sense of security and detract from the message that I believe that new subs should be hearing, which is take your time, get to know the person whose care you are trusting yourself to, and to use common sense and make good, fact based decisions.

As occurred in this thread, those who do not use safewords are referred to as dangerous people who are to be avoided. That is simply not true.

The most recent example I gave of an instance in which a safeword caused harm is that of a private party that I attended where a girl was being scened on a cross. She began screaming her safeword...the common word "Red". Well the scene did stop immediately. Everyone rushed to her aid. She continued to scream "Red". They pulled her from the cross and laid her down. She continued to scream "Red". They twisted her around and turned her one way and another looking for the site of the injury that was distressing her. She continued to scream "Red". It was all she could get out. As it turned out, she had a very serious back injury and the last thing she needed was a bunch of people twisting her every which way.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 3:00:20 PM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuciusAestus

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha
That is an excellent thing for all single submissives to know right up front.   Those that like permanant damage or serious injury know whom to go to. LOL

Unless ofcourse you are psychic and can tell when you are doing harmful damage to the sub.



You don't require special powers to know the difference between causing pain and causing harm, at least that is what I believe. And if the dominant intentionally is doing something to cause permament damage to the submissive, a safeword wouldn't really help.



I don't use a safeword, mostly because i can't remember the dang thing. I know that a safeword will not save your ass if the person you are playing with ignores it.

What i was trying to get across is that the post i was quoting, the person would be more concerned with thier enjoyment then their partners safety.

The Top/Dom/Master whaterever, needs to be able to read their partner, but even then, they have to be willing to listen if you tell them something is wrong. My main point being " No one is psychic and can read the bottom/sub correctly all the time."

_____________________________

I'm confused.... No wait!!! Maybe I'm not

It's not a blonde moment! It's momentary peroxide posioning. ;)

Your pain makes me smile ~ Happy Bunny

532-095-649

(in reply to LuciusAestus)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 3:02:57 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin


It was all she could get out. As it turned out, she had a very serious back injury and the last thing she needed was a bunch of people twisting her every which way.


If that was all she could get out, do you really think she would be managing anything more cohesive without the safeword? Seriously now. At least she could alert people to the fact there was trouble. Without it she might have just started screaming and there is the possibility no one would have known there was a problem. The problem there was her either not revealing that she had a back injury to those around her or those around her not considering she has a back injury.

I have a bad back. Those tying me up always know that. They know if I start screaming "red" then something with that is probably what is going on. Even if that isn't the problem, they know my back is bad so they don't move me. That isn't safeword failure, it's a failure of the people around her or herself to alert them to potential problems.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 3:10:03 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Lucius,   BDSM means many things to many people. 

For some it’s just kinky or fetish sex.  For others it’s Bondage & Discipline, or Sado/Masochism, for others still it’s D/s (Dominance & submission or M/s which is Master/slave) relationships.  For others still…it’s more about Topping and Bottoming with no discipline or submission or dominance or obedience at all.  

The lovely thing about WIITWD (what it is that we do) is…it’s ALL OKAY, as long as it’s consensual.   Hang out a bit…ask lots of questions…engage in these threads as you are and you’ll learn a bunch and discover what it is that YOU wanna do!  

Above all, have fun, Beverly

edited to add paragraphs!    grrrr


< Message edited by Bearlee -- 12/12/2006 3:28:15 PM >

(in reply to LuciusAestus)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 3:11:41 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin


It was all she could get out. As it turned out, she had a very serious back injury and the last thing she needed was a bunch of people twisting her every which way.


If that was all she could get out, do you really think she would be managing anything more cohesive without the safeword? Seriously now. At least she could alert people to the fact there was trouble. Without it she might have just started screaming and there is the possibility no one would have known there was a problem. The problem there was her either not revealing that she had a back injury to those around her or those around her not considering she has a back injury.

I have a bad back. Those tying me up always know that. They know if I start screaming "red" then something with that is probably what is going on. Even if that isn't the problem, they know my back is bad so they don't move me. That isn't safeword failure, it's a failure of the people around her or herself to alert them to potential problems.


She didn't have a bad back prior to the scene. Had she not had to depend upon a code word....just maybe she might have been screaming something a bit more telling....like "my back! my back!" for instance.

I'm sorry, I don't agree with your stance on safewords. I base my opinions on nearly 30 years of real time experience. I have seen them complicate things that should never have been complicated way too many times. I have personally stopped my fair share of scenes over those years...but I have never required a safeword to do so. As I said, if safewords are what does it for you....please, enjoy. But don't send the message that those of us who don't choose to are dangerous people to be avoided at all cost.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 40
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