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RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 6:21:21 PM   
catize


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

repeat, repeat, repeat in pedantic fashion.............think learning the times tables.

LOL,
Horace Mann 


OOOOHHH  like having SEX...

DO it again and again and again and again.... 

and sooner or later one gets it right?  maybe... well I hope not... cause I wanna do it again

If ya get it right, ya gotta keep practicing to KEEP it right! lol

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 7:14:39 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria

If the Dom/me is always in absolute control, then the play is not primal.



so by implication .. are you saying primal is absolute out of control? 

using "Control" as a measure of what is or isn't primal is rather narrow in my opinion.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Lady Alaria)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 7:25:51 PM   
Lady Alaria


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

so by implication .. are you saying primal is absolute out of control?

Nope. Just that primal means a certain loss of control, to me. Not absolutely out of control, but certainly some amount of 'loss of reason', and reversion to basic or 'primal' desires/instincts.

quote:


using "Control" as a measure of what is or isn't primal is rather narrow in my opinion.


Likewise the line going about that all Dom/mes -must- be in absolute control of themselves at all times is rather narrow in my opinion.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 7:30:09 PM   
TPEOwner


Posts: 73
Joined: 9/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuciusAestus

Anyone tried/enjoy this?

Allow me to explain. I don't really like the obedience part of a BDSM situation. I find it stupid with submissives saying "Yes Master/Mistress" all the time. I don't see the thrill in something being done by the command of another if the one commanding has no direct influence over the one being commanded. I find pure obedience only practiced because of the desire for it to be silly (but that is just my opinion, so please don't take offence from it).

Would it not be fun if the submissive, when tied up, instead of screaming "Fuck me hard, Master!", would struggle against the ropes and grit teeth in anger? This is at least what I find myself enjoying the thought of most. There may still be something I like about obedience, but I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

I'm sure there's more I should write, but my head is empty for now.



Very interesting question.  I too get bored quickly with mindless obedience.  Since high intelligence is at the top of my mandatory list for a potential partner, I want her to express herself.  If for no other reason, than if I'm going to be making the decisions, the more input I have, the better.  And yes, I also love resistance play.  I  do not care for bratty behavior to garner attention or to provoke.  I'm seeking a woman, not a little girl.  I also don't see a conflict between submission and open communication.  Encouraging her to express herself freely and enjoying resistance play does not change the fact that I still make the decisions.  Now if after that final decision is made, there is still resistance or refusal, than I have to question the "submissive" label.  If someone reserves the right to veto any or all decisions, then where is the submission?  Submitting to being ordered to do only the things you want to do anyway is role play.  I define that as bottoming.  If someone agrees to submit to me, whether for an hour or a lifetime, then I expect obedience within mutually agreed upon boundaries.  If I don't get it, then the agreement or the relationship needs to be reevaluated.

(in reply to LuciusAestus)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 7:38:45 PM   
akisha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

In my experience, actually getting to know each other, learning a little bit about each other, taking things at a pace that is good for both people creates a more secure environment.  A word does not.

If a dominant chooses to ignore protests from a new bottom, then they may choose to ignore a safeword.  A safeword is not a substitute for knowing who you are playing with.

Then there is also the times that a bottom becomes non-verbal; how are they going to use their safeword then?  It would be very dangerous if a top was relying on a bottom to safeword when things got bad rather than relying on their own judgment and skill.

Knight's kyra


Totally and completely agree 100%

I get to a point i don't even know my own name. Sir had to learn to read my body and not rely on a safeword, but when we first met as started playing, he requested that i use a safeword. I never did but by his requesting I also knew that he would abide by one. This also lead me to trust that he would be listening to me and watching my body language in case i did not or could not use a safeword.

As we got to know each other better, then the need for a safeword pretty much faded into the background. But I always know if need be He'll listen if i say it.

Like i tried to state earlier, it's not the word that is important, it's knowing the person in control gives a damn and is going to be aware of how you are responding. The option to use a safeword is just a safety net.



_____________________________

I'm confused.... No wait!!! Maybe I'm not

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Your pain makes me smile ~ Happy Bunny

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(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 7:41:08 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria


quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

so by implication .. are you saying primal is absolute out of control?

Nope. Just that primal means a certain loss of control, to me. Not absolutely out of control, but certainly some amount of 'loss of reason', and reversion to basic or 'primal' desires/instincts.

quote:


using "Control" as a measure of what is or isn't primal is rather narrow in my opinion.


Likewise the line going about that all Dom/mes -must- be in absolute control of themselves at all times is rather narrow in my opinion.



I agree.. simply because I don't see that anyone is truly in absolute control of themselves.  Which in of it is why saying "Absolute Control" is not primal is pointless... you might as well say being dead is not primal... it's pointlless.

primal is much more than about control. or releasing control.  It's about being uninhibited... and being uninhibited is not meaing that is not in control.  It's find that line in the sand... and just letting the rest go... respond to ones passions and desires rather than thinking about it.  Allow ones emotions and drives to cause one to motivate ones self into passionate expression.

My bottoms have one rule in play... don't reason... don't think... if it comes to you... let it flow out into action... if you feel to cry ... you cry...if you feel to scream you scream... if you desire to punch or attack me... then do it..... Don't THINK .... just let yourself flow with the currents... don't fight them... surrender to them.... I meld my energy and focus into theirs... They are the wave.. and I ride that wave..


editted to add...

but hey I am a soft touch... so maybe I don't know nothing about primal

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/12/2006 7:51:12 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Lady Alaria)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 7:41:47 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

so by implication .. are you saying primal is absolute out of control?

Nope. Just that primal means a certain loss of control, to me. Not absolutely out of control, but certainly some amount of 'loss of reason', and reversion to basic or 'primal' desires/instincts.


Now this I find interesting. Could it be that primal is another word that we all have a different definition for?

In what you describe as "primal" for you...being a loss of some degree of control....I envision a physical altercation where one is simply striking out with no controlled strategy.

When I get involved in "primal" play...it is a scene in which there is no planning as to how the scene will evolve and we operate at gut level dependent upon our ability to use our instincts to size up our opponent and make our strikes controlled, well timed, well placed with the thought of having them land with the most effectiveness. Maybe that comes from all of my years of fighting, but essentially, primal play for me is a knock down, drag out, no holds barred fight where the one who is left standing wins. But it is certainly not an out of control windmilling arms brawl. It doesn't involve one person in bondage...it's two people starting on equal ground....may the best man win.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Lady Alaria)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 7:55:19 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

If ya get it right, ya gotta keep practicing to KEEP it right! lol


ooooooooooooooooohh

well ok then... I am fucking awesome.. and I gonna keep doing it to stay on Top of my game!!!!  lol

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 7:55:20 PM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		i suppose it does mean different things to everyone as surely i cant enjoy the primal you enjoy Erin.  I suppose for us it means more of a "wrestling" type thing.  The only way i could win in your primal is to do something that would incapacitate my Master.  So we more or less wrestle to a degree.  Things like - i know that when we're going at it to NOT kick him in the nuts (and to make sure it doesnt happen on accident).  Since he out wieghs me it usually turns into more or less just a struggle.  With me usually twisting free long enough to hightail it to some higher ground.  It usually end with me trying not to follow my hair where ever he's leading it.  So for us its - me letting loose for the most part.  I'm allowed to resist and do the things i am normally not allowed - but i am still not allowed to cross the lines.  Like slap him in the face, hit him in the nuts, or side kick a knee out from him. 

i think i would enjoy your primal but be more worried about doing it.  Being my size i have learned more so how to drop my opponent.  i'd worry that i'd try and break their knee cap or something.  I should prolly learn to fight people my size or near too. 

As for control.  No human is in control 100% - but i would expect a Dom to be in control of a scene. No matter which scene.  We are laying our life in their hands arent we?  Even in the "primal" you all speak about (which i seem to have no experience in) you wouldnt let go far enough to rip out some ones eye ball to win would ya?  Thats a molecule of control!


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My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

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RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 7:58:37 PM   
freakgoddess


Posts: 48
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline 		another way to look at obedience:  if i want a man who will not obey, i can get that from any man on the street.  why would i need a submissive for that?

(in reply to LuciusAestus)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 8:00:41 PM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

LMAO.... ok now you are just being silly.

You clearly don't understand that some individuals will go non-verbal and even unable to signal a think in their play.  This has nothing to do with intensity or hard play or some other stupid label.  It just something that happens for some people in play.  Secondly, alot of these people have found out the hard way that they can find themselves in this particular situation.  Which makes safe words nul and void.

The fact is.. that some people CAN"T tell their TOP that something is wrong etc.  Which is why depending safewords alone is reckless if not stupid in my opinion.  But, some never get to a none verbal state... and safewords are rather good for them. 

However, preaching the Mantra that "Safewords" keep you safe... well frankly ... that is reckless and very misleading to people that are trying to learn.  Understand the risks... the probability of them happening is another thing all together.


Just wanted to add on a point this the bolded area.

Not only do some of us go non verbal, but have a tendancy to say wierd and random things that could be taken for a safeword when it wasn't one.

We all respond very differently to stimuli, what is the norm for one will not be the norm for another. People even respond differently to different types of stimulation. For me with heavy thuddy pain i drift and float and can't talk. With stingy pain i yelp and want to run away lol Not hard to communicate very verbally then at all.




_____________________________

I'm confused.... No wait!!! Maybe I'm not

It's not a blonde moment! It's momentary peroxide posioning. ;)

Your pain makes me smile ~ Happy Bunny

532-095-649

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 8:15:15 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister
Even in the "primal" you all speak about (which i seem to have no experience in) you wouldnt let go far enough to rip out some ones eye ball to win would ya?  Thats a molecule of control!


Well of course not. This is not a type of play that I would engage in casually. My ex and I used to very much enjoy this type of play though. We were in a committed relationship so of course we didn't wish to cause each other permanent harm. That said though, we did give each other a fair share of black eyes, split lips, swollen cheek bones and bruised ribs.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 8:22:16 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I am in agreement, I didn't want to go to war over it, but if the Spanish inquisition is coming to town, and I am Bernardo Gui---

If someone is trying to hold on to the secrets--- well, just because they confess or in some other way give in is no reason to stop the torture, is it?

Ron 


NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
 
(sitting Otter in the  comfy-chair and poking him with the soft cusions..CONFESS!)
 
TIE HIM TO THE RACK (ties a dish rack to his chest)
God, I love that skit (Monty Python)

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 9:00:26 PM   
Lady Alaria


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I agree.. simply because I don't see that anyone is truly in absolute control of themselves. Which in of it is why saying "Absolute Control" is not primal is pointless... you might as well say being dead is not primal... it's pointlless.

primal is much more than about control. or releasing control. It's about being uninhibited... and being uninhibited is not meaing that is not in control. It's find that line in the sand... and just letting the rest go... respond to ones passions and desires rather than thinking about it. Allow ones emotions and drives to cause one to motivate ones self into passionate expression.

My bottoms have one rule in play... don't reason... don't think... if it comes to you... let it flow out into action... if you feel to cry ... you cry...if you feel to scream you scream... if you desire to punch or attack me... then do it..... Don't THINK .... just let yourself flow with the currents... don't fight them... surrender to them.... I meld my energy and focus into theirs... They are the wave.. and I ride that wave..


editted to add...

but hey I am a soft touch... so maybe I don't know nothing about primal

hmm
Splitting of hairs about 'absolute' aside...

Huh...so in your primal, your sub let's go, but you don't? Different. To each their own.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 9:12:05 PM   
Lady Alaria


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Now this I find interesting. Could it be that primal is another word that we all have a different definition for?

In what you describe as "primal" for you...being a loss of some degree of control....I envision a physical altercation where one is simply striking out with no controlled strategy.

When I get involved in "primal" play...it is a scene in which there is no planning as to how the scene will evolve and we operate at gut level dependent upon our ability to use our instincts to size up our opponent and make our strikes controlled, well timed, well placed with the thought of having them land with the most effectiveness. Maybe that comes from all of my years of fighting, but essentially, primal play for me is a knock down, drag out, no holds barred fight where the one who is left standing wins. But it is certainly not an out of control windmilling arms brawl. It doesn't involve one person in bondage...it's two people starting on equal ground....may the best man win.


Seems primal might be a 'different definition' word. Seems control might be too. Losing some degree of my control for me has nothing to do with windmilling arms brawl. It has to do with a certain amount of surrender to the beastial nature. The sadistic side of me doesn't do much thinking, just acting, at having a consensual space to let a bit of this out is nice.

And a note on control: If I were to get into a no-holds-barred fight while in that kind of state, it doesn't matter who was Dom or sub, or how much I loved the other person... there would be a good chance someone would end up in the hospital or deceased. I know how far I can push things on that level...

It's not a real fight, per se, but it isn't a state of the Dom/me necessarily being in 'full control' of the situation. It's just a space where 2 people can both let loose a bit... I don't know, maybe I'm just weird. Seems to work for me, thought this was fairly common... Though I guess Erin's experiences are closest to what I've done...

And about bondage Erin...yeah, I know it might seem odd...but wrestling for submission doesn't work too well when the sub is noticeably bigger/stronger then the Dom/me.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 9:27:20 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Alaria
And about bondage Erin...yeah, I know it might seem odd...but wrestling for submission doesn't work too well when the sub is noticeably bigger/stronger then the Dom/me.


Ah see....but that is the part of the challenge I enjoy most. Being the smaller, supposedly weaker. I'm not much intimidated by size.

quote:

  And a note on control: If I were to get into a no-holds-barred fight while in that kind of state, it doesn't matter who was Dom or sub, or how much I loved the other person... there would be a good chance someone would end up in the hospital or deceased. I know how far I can push things on that level...


I know how far I can push things on that level too. I fought for a good number of years. Maybe it's that training that taught me how to keep myself in control. I'd have to think it at least contributed. I see a huge difference between fighting a no holds barred fight and going into an uncontrollable rage that might leave someone dead. If I thought that my partner wasn't capable of reeling himself back in, I wouldn't be fighting with him....nor would I ever trust him enough to allow him to bind me. I like to play with heavy sadists...and I need to know that they are capable of maintaining necessary amounts of control to stay within the limits agreed upon. I don't have any interest in playing with loose cannons.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 12/12/2006 9:30:04 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Lady Alaria)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 9:43:37 PM   
DanceDreaming


Posts: 28
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline 		error

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 9:47:25 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I think too often when someone like me says Safewords are a tool, some folks might read into it that I beleive they are the only tools, and that is certainly not so. Nor do I believe safewrds are the best tool for every type of scene or every type of play.
They work well in some stiuations and for some purposes. They are not a complete toolbox. But just as a crecent wrench is handy when you have a multiple sized nuts to tighten, but are next to useless for driving railroad spikes, a safeword is only ONE tool that is handy to have in the toolbox.

(in reply to DanceDreaming)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 9:59:55 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I think too often when someone like me says Safewords are a tool, some folks might read into it that I beleive they are the only tools, and that is certainly not so. Nor do I believe safewrds are the best tool for every type of scene or every type of play.
They work well in some stiuations and for some purposes. They are not a complete toolbox. But just as a crecent wrench is handy when you have a multiple sized nuts to tighten, but are next to useless for driving railroad spikes, a safeword is only ONE tool that is handy to have in the toolbox.



Wonderful way to put it.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Non-obedient BDSM - 12/12/2006 11:47:24 PM   
Mikal


Posts: 3673
Status: offline 		I'll go with Archer on safewords. They have their uses, as do all things, depending on what is involved and who is involved. *shrugs* In the scheme of things, does it really matter? If your relationships (casual or otherwise) are working an no one is threatening you with jail, then WHO CARES???? Different strokes for different folks... I would have expected the majority of people on this site to understand and accept this, considering wiitwd.
 
To the OP: obedience in somethings is a must for me. But I don't want an unthinking doormat. While I'm not into primal, if my sub wanted to struggle and whatnot, go for it. *shrugs* If my knots come undone (and sub isn't trying to be like a certain houdini... ) I'll just tie them better next time. If the sub makes too much noise, I'll simply gag them.  I must admit to liking the thought/idea/whatever of doing what I please to my sub regarless of what they want, but I only do so within reason to whatever reason is with that particular sub.
 
I hope I made sense... if not, I'll try to explain it better next time.

_____________________________

You know that I am a sexy penguin.

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Profile   Post #: 120
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