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RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 3:25:52 PM

cjenny

Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
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All states have to be compliant by 2008 where any state issued ID to include drivers licenses much include several data elements, to include your fingerprint (L/R 5x5 or full 10print). There is a data field within the Real ID dataset that requires the print. You can postpone this until one of two things happen - the federal government mandates that all states must comply with the biometric (fingerprinting) record, or the states decide to enact their own state law mandating the biometric record. DNA and facial prints are in later years but are coming.

This law, the Real ID Act along with FISA Reform and The Patriot Act, are all designed to thwart terrorist acts within the US. The challenge is one of appropriate balance -how do we catch these terrorists before they kill , and do so while preserving privacy rights.
Some of the info gathering is purely for financial reasons. There are a myraid of commercial companies whose single job is collect a complete profile on you. This profile includes your name, address, age, medical history, current credit cards, buying habits, relatives data, friends data, and much more. The vendor of choice here is ChiocePoint, (example, however a genuine vendor of information) others are subsidiaries of LexusNexus, etc..and now untraditional companies such as Yahoo, Google, MSN, Excite, etc..have a history of your website visits, etc..In most cases these companies do your keep specific data on *you*, but rather depersonalize this data to do statistical analysis and then sell that data to, you got it, Choicepoint. So, to put things into perspectives, the federal government has much less infomation on you then do commercial companies, A system that was/is designed and managed by commecial companies and is widely and often used by state and federal governments.
So when the checkout person asks for your zipcode... when you leave inevitable traces everywhere...these bits of personal information are stored and often used.

This are points I have learned & personally I am unwilling to hand over more information. Not because I am ugly or paraniod but because at this point in time I still have a choice.

*edited to say ohgosh i really didnt mean to post in bold! most of this i had already written in notebook & copied here. sorry :)

< Message edited by cjenny -- 12/29/2006 4:24:39 PM >

(in reply to cjenny)

Post #: 41

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 3:26:44 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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Honestly though if you have nothing to hide does it really matter? I would rather have the protection of all this than not. So the government knows where i am - i go nowhere im ashamed of. So they know what ive bought and where - so what im not ashamed of anything i buy.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 42

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 3:29:31 PM

MissyRane

Posts: 1032
Joined: 5/11/2005
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Personally I couldn't care less though a cameraman would walk behind me filming my every single move..okay probably I would get annoyed by it but seriously..what's the gawd damned biggy if you're a civilized citizen?

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 43

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 3:38:25 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Honestly though if you have nothing to hide does it really matter? I would rather have the protection of all this than not. So the government knows where i am - i go nowhere im ashamed of. So they know what ive bought and where - so what im not ashamed of anything i buy.

Hrmmmm, so why don't you send me all that data? I'm probably more trustworthy than the government. I never have stolen(except when I was 5), I've never murdered, etc....
That is your answer..

The government has stolen peoples property under false pretenses, the government has imprisoned people falsely and lied about it, the government has done all kinds of things.

So, who knows what will happen, maybe I'll have views that aren't exactly in line with the government line. They screwed with Martin Luther King and John Lennon to name the most famous. Who is to say the same bull, won't happen again. McCarthyism for example, would be crazy with that kind of control.

It's not the theoritical things the government could do that makes me against giving them more control, it's the things the government has admitted to doing that makes me not trust them.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 44

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 3:43:37 PM

missturbation

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If you want that data on me you can gladly have it. Ill tell you where i am 24/7 and exactly what ive bought and when by all means.
Government conspiracies!! Well without the new id cards and whatever else the government can frame people and have according to your post so again the id cards really dont make a lot of difference.
For me it boils down to less hassle to carry the card than not. For others like yourself maybe you will choose not to carry the card, your decision. I just think you are fighting a losing battle, time and energy wasted on the inevitable.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 45

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 3:44:07 PM

cjenny

Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I just dont see the point in refusing to carry an id card because in the scheme of things its tiny.

I think that is the point, it is not a tiny thing. It is pushing us down a slope that not all are willing ski. I know that I will not have a choice at some point, but dangit it saddens me knowing that a generation from now the concept of privacy will be nothing like the privacy that we still know today. I do not want the time when today becomes tomorrow & the basis of my outside world is permanently altered.

~no, i do not live in a desert trailer with aluminum foil around my head.... only because i haven't a trailer. *s*

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 46

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 3:47:35 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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If the government wanted to keep tabs on you they would do it id card or not. It just probably makes it easier with them. I can understand you wanting to keep your freedom as long as possible and dont blame you but what privacy do you really think you have now anyway?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to cjenny)

Post #: 47

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 3:49:34 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

miss, the chances are if you're white you'll never be asked to produce your ID card. If you're black or asian you probably will. You know how it is, all blacks are drug runners and all asians are terrorists. They've been doing this for decades - stopping and searching non-whites usually without any sort of basis, this will give them an extra string to the bow if an act is passed.
I sincerely hope you are joking here!! Where i live you never see an asian or black being stopped because they cry racism faster than george bush makes a gaff.
Just as worrying is the proposed DNA database to house the DNA of everyone. Imagine how easy it would be to frame someone - just swap the DNA and there's no way back from that. The number of miscarriages of justice and deliberate framing in the '70s makes this proposal a real nightmare scenario. If this is ever passed it'll be the biggest invasion of our civil liberties that comes to my mind.
I've not heard of this but yeah thats a little worrying. These things have always happened though - framing etc. I just dont see the point in refusing to carry an id card because in the scheme of things its tiny.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/race/story/0,11374,835180,00.html

In 2002, a black person was 8 times more likely to be stopped and searched and an asian 3 times more likely than whites.

On the ID cards point, we're already the most watched people in the world (CCTV). We have a camera for every 15 people. We are the first and only country in the world where the movements of all car journeys are recorded on a database and stored. You can forget any protesting against Government policy because they'll be watching you and will nip it in the bud before you get out of your front door - no canvassing, no leafleting, no picketing, no opposition. This prevention of terrorism argument, the irony is this will make us less secure as we're edging towards a police state where our lives are owned by our government. We're giving up freedoms that people fought tooth and nail to win a hundred years ago (just like we don't vote anymore).

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 48

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 3:54:43 PM

missturbation

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From: another planet
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Ah the wondrous guardian lol. You come stay with me and ill show the sights and sounds of the mighty bradford where the whites are second class citizens.
I dont disagree with you that we are losing certain freedoms but i do argue that there is nothing we can do. There are not enough people who will be willing to stand up and argue against to be effective. Why waste time and energy on the inevitable?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 49

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 3:56:47 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

If you want that data on me you can gladly have it. Ill tell you where i am 24/7 and exactly what ive bought and when by all means.
Government conspiracies!! Well without the new id cards and whatever else the government can frame people and have according to your post so again the id cards really dont make a lot of difference.
For me it boils down to less hassle to carry the card than not. For others like yourself maybe you will choose not to carry the card, your decision. I just think you are fighting a losing battle, time and energy wasted on the inevitable.

History, family heritage, medical records, bank account holdings, and ability to cut them off. debit, credit, freeze , gps level tracking of everything you ever do. Ability to change any of that data at my will and to submit as evidence against you.

It's complete control over you, if it unwraps as it eventually will. Your testimony will worthless, the data said you did it.

I don't know if your comfortable with that, I really have no faith in the government to do right.

Anyway, do you really think fringe groups will be allowed in such an environment? It's highly unlikely, the only reason groups like this are even allowed to exist is because they don't have the resources to eliminate them, it's not like the public in general would rise up against a ban on BDSM. I really think you should think about what near total ability to track you and your money means. It's everything... The very basis of freedom..

True they could do bad things in the past but shutting down a whole organization in such a system as stated would be very, very, easy. Simply forge the RFID location data, input a transaction with a unscrupulous terrorist. Arrest malcontent. Before that would require a shit load of effort to pull off. It's the ease at which power could be abusable that is very wrong.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 50

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 4:02:17 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

Anyway, do you really think fringe groups will be allowed in such an environment? It's highly unlikely, the only reason groups like this are even allowed to exist is because they don't have the resources to eliminate them, it's not like the public in general would rise up against a ban on BDSM.
You sure about that - i guess you have not heard the governments plans to make illegal any photographic images, porn films of bdsm? As we speak there is a petition to stop the law being passed but i have a feeling that it will go ahead anyway. Anyone found with photos showing bondage will be placed on the sex offenders register and anyone practicing bdsm and caught will be prosecuted. The dom will be charged with assault and the sub with aiding and abetting.
It's complete control over you, if it unwraps as it eventually will. Your testimony will worthless, the data said you did it
You really think you have much control now? The data said you did it - sucessful conspiracies happen now it will change nothing.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 51

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 4:04:43 PM

cjenny

Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
I dont disagree with you that we are losing certain freedoms but i do argue that there is nothing we can do. There are not enough people who will be willing to stand up and argue against to be effective. Why waste time and energy on the inevitable?

That totally confuses me. Having or holding an ideal is never a waste of time, for me it is an integral part of being a thinking human being. I don't understand the attitude 's&*t happens'. Of course things are beyond my control but that doesn't mean I am going to smile as it happens.
I don't have to be a criminal to not want my ID chip embedded.
I don't have to be paranoid to not want my shopping choices shared for marketing purposes.
I don't have to be guilty of anything to want to keep my private life just that. Private.
Gods, imagine having a job where you are near children in ANY capacity and being found here on CM?
Go buy a new car and it is calculated how long it will last. Watch as the credit card applications and auto sales brochures fill your mailbox when that date nears.
Sure, small things. Small things add up though.

& last but not least & probably not last:
dang I went allllllll brave and posted real stuff :)
yay me. hehehe.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 52

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 4:05:17 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

I get the distinct impression I am yelling into a Hurricane. Boy am I glad I'm not living in the 'Land of the Free' anymore.

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 53

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 4:10:36 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

Ive never said you were a criminal or anything of the sort, my apologies if you had got that impression.
There is a quote which goes along the lines of giving me strength to accept the things i cant change etc etc. I just think rather than waste time fighting things you cant change concentrate on those you can.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to cjenny)

Post #: 54

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 4:11:47 PM

cjenny

Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline

Nope, no hurricane. I did read your post and I agree with it. The only reason I didn't post to you on it earlier is because I've no 'real' basis for agreeing. Meaning that I don't have the information to back it all up. I may be new here but one thing I have learned is that if you post without backup chances are you will be flamed. LOL & that is why I haven't posted much!

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 55

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 4:13:52 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Anyway, do you really think fringe groups will be allowed in such an environment? It's highly unlikely, the only reason groups like this are even allowed to exist is because they don't have the resources to eliminate them, it's not like the public in general would rise up against a ban on BDSM.
You sure about that - i guess you have not heard the governments plans to make illegal any photographic images, porn films of bdsm? As we speak there is a petition to stop the law being passed but i have a feeling that it will go ahead anyway. Anyone found with photos showing bondage will be placed on the sex offenders register and anyone practicing bdsm and caught will be prosecuted. The dom will be charged with assault and the sub with aiding and abetting.
It's complete control over you, if it unwraps as it eventually will. Your testimony will worthless, the data said you did it
You really think you have much control now? The data said you did it - sucessful conspiracies happen now it will change nothing.

Yes, it already happens, but it will be way easier.

Let's take the BDSM example. Now they have no real way of tracking who I meet or see. So, if I don't say who I met or saw, it wouldn't go further than me.

If you have all this tracking going on.
Well, they catch me, they would begin almost instantly monitoring everyone I've come in contact with that they thought might be also involved. If they did that now it'd take 100's of agents, but with the system they are proposing, it wouldn't take much more than data mining.

It's the ease at which the power will be used. Nearly instant and with very little resource consumption of the governments end.

So, in the current form of government one has a pretty good chance of still being involved in those activities, and never suffer a consequence, even if they made them illegal. Under a huge tracking system, it's done, you might as well stop as soon as they say the word.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 56

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 4:15:02 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Honestly though if you have nothing to hide does it really matter? I would rather have the protection of all this than not. So the government knows where i am - i go nowhere im ashamed of. So they know what ive bought and where - so what im not ashamed of anything i buy.

you miss the point entirely, it has nothing to do with hiding. it has ever thing to do with the democracy and my right to privacy that was afforded to me by the consttitution that you can now use to wipe your ass with.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 57

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 4:18:09 PM

cjenny

Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline

Apologies accepted :) & accepted happily.
I suppose I fight because I always have. I was the kid at the playground who protected the picked on kids. If I see something broken, I try to fix it.
Even if it is indeed hopeless I will try. I would be gravely disappointed in myself if I just let 'bad things' float on by without doing something about it.
One of my first posts on this thread mentioned how I personally think part of this is because of my American culture & upbringing. We are taught that it is our right to fight against inequity & injustice.
This fast eroding of our privacy and our rights is to me both an injustice & inequity.

It is something I believe in with every fiber of my being.
Jeez this thread really needs international patriotic music!
:)

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 58

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 4:21:20 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Anyway, do you really think fringe groups will be allowed in such an environment? It's highly unlikely, the only reason groups like this are even allowed to exist is because they don't have the resources to eliminate them, it's not like the public in general would rise up against a ban on BDSM.
You sure about that - i guess you have not heard the governments plans to make illegal any photographic images, porn films of bdsm? As we speak there is a petition to stop the law being passed but i have a feeling that it will go ahead anyway. Anyone found with photos showing bondage will be placed on the sex offenders register and anyone practicing bdsm and caught will be prosecuted. The dom will be charged with assault and the sub with aiding and abetting.
It's complete control over you, if it unwraps as it eventually will. Your testimony will worthless, the data said you did it
You really think you have much control now? The data said you did it - sucessful conspiracies happen now it will change nothing.

Yes, it already happens, but it will be way easier.

Let's take the BDSM example. Now they have no real way of tracking who I meet or see. So, if I don't say who I met or saw, it wouldn't go further than me.

If you have all this tracking going on.
Well, they catch me, they would begin almost instantly monitoring everyone I've come in contact with that they thought might be also involved. If they did that now it'd take 100's of agents, but with the system they are proposing, it wouldn't take much more than data mining.

It's the ease at which the power will be used. Nearly instant and with very little resource consumption of the governments end.

So, in the current form of government one has a pretty good chance of still being involved in those activities, and never suffer a consequence, even if they made them illegal. Under a huge tracking system, it's done, you might as well stop as soon as they say the word.

I see your point but it would not take hundreds of agents to track what you do now. One click on collar me would find you and tracing your ip addy would then give them relevant info to find you. I have signed a government petition to keep the right to have my ass kicked consensually of course but i doubt it will do much good. I would contrary to popular belief sign a petition against id cards as well but my hopes of that not coming to pass but again i doubt what good it will do. I dont see it will make much change to be honest - the government controls now, the government will control when id cards become law all be it a little easier.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 59

RE: Picture ID - 12/29/2006 4:22:00 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

Thanks, cjenny. My recent experience has been it doesn't matter how many sources you have - you'll get flamed. I've seen people being flamed for using certain sources, I've even been flamed for not reading 300 pages of a source that I only needed one paragraph from. Fortunately, I have an Asbestos lined temper (which will likely end up a controlled substance, too.)

Take care,

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 60

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