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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 2:11:57 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Actually obedience does equal boring. What is not boring is the underlying motivation and the emotional response. The act itelf is secondary and often quite boring.

For example:

Standing in one position for an hour is boring. Telling someone to do that is boring. What is interesting is what she is thinking about and how she feels while standing in that position and what motivated you to put her there in the first place.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 4:30:57 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling

quote:

I believe we 'breed' brats. I've noticed how at cofee's or munches everyone is paying attention to the bratty little submissive bouncing from knee to knee. Very rarely is there a lot of attention paid to the quiet sub who is cleaning up after everyone and eager to serve and please.

True also at Private Parties and Clubs
Been there


What type of attention is this?

I know that children who strongly desire attention will settle for negative attention to any attention at all.

I would wonder about a person who was a brat (especially in a public venue) and my wonder would not be positive and would not lead to any interaction on my part other than to frown and ignore them. If that brat were with another person and they were upsetting others at the event, I'd have a discussion with their partner about respecting others' rights to enjoy the event without interference. I wouldn't even approach said brat for a discussion because I think that reenforces the behavior.

So why do others respond when someone acts bratty? Why not just ignore them?

Why don't more people pay attention to the respectful, thoughtful and nice people on either side of the BDSM equation.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 4:55:55 PM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

So why do others respond when someone acts bratty? Why not just ignore them?

Why don't more people pay attention to the respectful, thoughtful and nice people on either side of the BDSM equation.

To be blunt... because there's a difference between a dominant who expects obedience and some horny wanna-be who gets off on the brats frequent flirtatious behavior, the chase and "conquest".  Both the brat and the "dom" are engaging in a game of "tag n tease" where the brat picks out a few individuals which she teases a bit, then runs away expecting them to chase her or try to "dom" her into obeying with "punishments".  Most often the so-called punishments are just another form of play... and there is no real power exchange going on and no one is actually submitting or being dominant.

But hey... everyone's kink is okay, right?  

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 5:00:27 PM   
justheather


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Joined: 10/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone
Standing in one position for an hour is boring. Telling someone to do that is boring. What is interesting is what she is thinking about and how she feels while standing in that position and what motivated you to put her there in the first place.


From the other side of the coin...the thoughts and feelings one encounters while standing, the perpetual waves of surrender that standing in one position for an hour entails, the sensing of one's body, the settling into and accepting of the pain...all of which I consider to be a spiritual exercise...are something that does not even remotely resemble "boring".


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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 5:07:34 PM   
ownedgirlie


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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

From the other side of the coin...the thoughts and feelings one encounters while standing, the perpetual waves of surrender that standing in one position for an hour entails, the sensing of one's body, the settling into and accepting of the pain...all of which I consider to be a spiritual exercise...are something that does not even remotely resemble "boring".



Having stood in the same position for 6 hours at my Master's bedside while he slept one night, you have captured the essence of what goes on in the mind and heart quite well...and if I may add, the look on his face as he awoke, to see me exactly where he left me, well those things never leave a slave.  How anyone could find such a shared experience boring is beyond me.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 5:32:48 PM   
TypeAsub1


Posts: 65
Joined: 12/10/2006
Status: offline 		Not when taken in context with the sentences following it.  I am not indicating that punishment is useless.. I am indicating that if your goal is to abolish the unwanted behaviour and replace it with more appropriate behaviour, physical punishment will not achieve that.

This is more specifically true in the case of brats who intentionally misbehave for the sake of attention or to feed their masochism.  Giving physical punishment to such people is utterly useless.  It is the equivalent of giving a bone to a dog who just ate a child.  You are rewarding the poor behaviour.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Physical punishment is useless. 


This is an absolute and like most absolutes it is dead wrong.

Punishment is just another tool in the tool box... granted.. a Limited tool.  as far as a tool of changing or correcting behavior.. punishment is one of the more least effective methods.. unfortunately... alot of lazy Doms like to use it .. very much like Doctors that over prescribe medication.  It's an quick fix to the sympthoms but not to the underlying causes.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 5:59:29 PM   
mellian


Posts: 211
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		I agree that life and a D/s relationship as to be interesting to avoid having it become boring, and there is many ways to keep it interesting. While being bratty sometimes, usually as a tease, joke, while a game or just for good laughs is okay, but to be bratty for the sakeness of being bratty I usually end up ignoring, also would make any punishments pointless if they plan to just continue being bratty for the sake of being bratty.

-mellian 

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 8:15:34 PM   
adaddysgirl


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From: Syracuse, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Not when taken in context with the sentences following it.  I am not indicating that punishment is useless.. I am indicating that if your goal is to abolish the unwanted behaviour and replace it with more appropriate behaviour, physical punishment will not achieve that.

i am not sure why you insist that physical punishment could not abolish unwanted behavior and replace it with more appropriate behavior.  If you could provide some factual documentaion....or even provide how you have come to this conclusion...i would really be glad to hear.  Otherwise, you seem to be trying to make a personal opinion into a definitive fact.  Or perhaps i am not getting something?
 
DG



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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 8:37:04 PM   
TypeAsub1


Posts: 65
Joined: 12/10/2006
Status: offline 		Firstly.. we are dealing here with brats.. who intentionally misbehave in an effort to obtain attention and/or to feed their masochism.  That puts them in charge.  The lunatics are running the asylum - so to speak.

To address your question.  This isn't an opinion.  This is science.  This is fact.  Anyone who has ever gone to law school, or taken a course in criminology or anything else that deals with human behaviour, deviance, crime, punishment etc... will tell you that merely punishing in a 'punative' manner is not adequate to redefine behaviours.  This is why prisons attempt to 'rehabilitate' by teaching new skills and offering education and counselling and various other productive activities to attempt to redefine criminal and destructive behaviours.

Punishment alone is not adequate to ensure that new behaviours are formed correctly. 

However, my response has always been in dealing directly with the issue brought up in this thread - which is that 2 subs tried to manipulate their doms because they think being obediant is boring.  So their answer to this, rather than to ask for greater challenges or to find greater challenges for themselves.. was to manipulate their doms by misbehaving in an attempt to garner attention and to enjoy a spanking.  They got what they wanted.  Therefore - the dom was nothing more than a pawn in their game.  They controlled the situation, they controlled the Dom. 

The only thing the dom's in question achieved was to ensure that they gave their submissives the power to dictate the terms of their relationship. 

You may find that your dom scratching your itch helps you.  However, if he does not sit down with you and find out why you've been unable to comply and determine what the real challenge is for you.. and then help you find a suitable means of addressing that situation to ensure you don't repeat the behaviour.. the only thing you've accomplished is to have found a punative release for your guilt over committing your transgression.  Without forming a plan to ensure that you never again make that same mistake.. you've done nothing to create a new a behaviour.

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Not when taken in context with the sentences following it.  I am not indicating that punishment is useless.. I am indicating that if your goal is to abolish the unwanted behaviour and replace it with more appropriate behaviour, physical punishment will not achieve that.

i am not sure why you insist that physical punishment could not abolish unwanted behavior and replace it with more appropriate behavior.  If you could provide some factual documentaion....or even provide how you have come to this conclusion...i would really be glad to hear.  Otherwise, you seem to be trying to make a personal opinion into a definitive fact.  Or perhaps i am not getting something?
 
DG




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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 8:42:16 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Not when taken in context with the sentences following it.  I am not indicating that punishment is useless.. I am indicating that if your goal is to abolish the unwanted behaviour and replace it with more appropriate behaviour, physical punishment will not achieve that.

i am not sure why you insist that physical punishment could not abolish unwanted behavior and replace it with more appropriate behavior.  If you could provide some factual documentaion....or even provide how you have come to this conclusion...i would really be glad to hear.  Otherwise, you seem to be trying to make a personal opinion into a definitive fact.  Or perhaps i am not getting something?
 
DG




She can only be referring to herself, as opposed to speaking for all existing submissives.

Some submissives and slaves need an extra jolt now and then.  I did when Master first took ownership of me.  That's not necessarily the case now.  Some of my behaviors - not of a bratty nature at all - could only be addressed in a corporal nature.  That was the only language I could understand at the time.  Thank God he knew that.

Edited to add, having just seen her post above mine, and the "Anyone who has gone to law school..." remark, that my Master is a lawyer, law professor and judge pro tem.  Ah the irony. 

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 1/1/2007 9:34:38 PM >

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 9:19:35 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Firstly.. we are dealing here with brats.. who intentionally misbehave in an effort to obtain attention and/or to feed their masochism.  That puts them in charge.  The lunatics are running the asylum - so to speak.

To address your question.  This isn't an opinion.  This is science.  This is fact.  Anyone who has ever gone to law school, or taken a course in criminology or anything else that deals with human behaviour, deviance, crime, punishment etc... will tell you that merely punishing in a 'punative' manner is not adequate to redefine behaviours.  This is why prisons attempt to 'rehabilitate' by teaching new skills and offering education and counselling and various other productive activities to attempt to redefine criminal and destructive behaviours.

Well, not to burst any bubbles or anything....but i have a Criminal Justice degree and have been a NY State investigator for 16 years (which i still am).  While in college, i also minored in psychology and worked with the mentally ill 3 years full time and 4 years part time...which overlapped so that  about 12 hours out of a day, i was spending with the mentally ill.  So really, i am not naive to neither criminology nor human behavior. 
 
i will not speculate here on the success of prisons and changing criminal behaviors.  i am merely limiting my example to spankings and behavior modification.  i really still do not see what you are declaring as science....or fact...as you put it.  Are you really trying to compare imprisonment and its effectiveness with spankings in a D/s relationship?  i really fail to see the comparison.


Punishment alone is not adequate to ensure that new behaviours are formed correctly. 

Again...in your opinion.  And perhaps because you are relating it to something quite incomparable.

However, my response has always been in dealing directly with the issue brought up in this thread - which is that 2 subs tried to manipulate their doms because they think being obediant is boring.  So their answer to this, rather than to ask for greater challenges or to find greater challenges for themselves.. was to manipulate their doms by misbehaving in an attempt to garner attention and to enjoy a spanking.  They got what they wanted.  Therefore - the dom was nothing more than a pawn in their game.  They controlled the situation, they controlled the Dom. 

i can respect your opinion on this....if that is what you feel.  my issue is with the above definitives.

The only thing the dom's in question achieved was to ensure that they gave their submissives the power to dictate the terms of their relationship. 

Again, this may be true...for you and others....and i am not disputing this one way or the other (although i have talked with Doms who prefer bratty subs and i suppose what goes on between them is really not for me to judge).

You may find that your dom scratching your itch helps you.  However, if he does not sit down with you and find out why you've been unable to comply and determine what the real challenge is for you.. and then help you find a suitable means of addressing that situation to ensure you don't repeat the behaviour.. the only thing you've accomplished is to have found a punative release for your guilt over committing your transgression.  Without forming a plan to ensure that you never again make that same mistake.. you've done nothing to create a new a behaviour.

All i can say to this is....you really do not have all the answers to everyone else's dynamic.  What that Dom did worked for us as far as altering my behavior.  He was happy with that and so was i. 
 
i wonder why it is that you feel in such a position to determine how/what works between two consenting (and intelligent) adults.  Or is everything you say just 'science' and a fact?
 
DG


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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 9:34:24 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Not when taken in context with the sentences following it.  I am not indicating that punishment is useless.. I am indicating that if your goal is to abolish the unwanted behaviour and replace it with more appropriate behaviour, physical punishment will not achieve that.

i am not sure why you insist that physical punishment could not abolish unwanted behavior and replace it with more appropriate behavior.  If you could provide some factual documentaion....or even provide how you have come to this conclusion...i would really be glad to hear.  Otherwise, you seem to be trying to make a personal opinion into a definitive fact.  Or perhaps i am not getting something?
 
DG




She can only be referring to herself, as opposed to speaking for all existing submissives.

Some submissives and slaves need an extra jolt now and then.  I did when Master first took ownership of me.  That's not necessarily the case now.  Some of my behaviors - not of a bratty nature at all - could only be addressed in a corporal nature.  That was the only language I could understand at the time.  Thank God he knew that.


And if her views were stated as referring to herself, as opposed to all submissives, i would take no issue with that.  But if you look at the underlined passage, it doesn't sound that way, does it?  i guess i am just trying to establish what credentials she possesses for such a definitive statement. 
 
Some of your behaviors could only be addressed in a corporal nature....and it worked for you and him.....yep, that's really all i am saying  :)
 
DG

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 9:45:41 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		being obedient, to me, takes a great deal of faith in your dominant and his ability to be a good dominant. being ignored is the worst possible punishment, in my mind, and the one or two times i've even been unknowingly disobedient, he's threatened to remove himself from my life for a certain period of time. i cannot imagine being bratty, especially not simply for the pleasure of being punished - when his disappointment in me is a terrible pain to me, and he will give play punishments anytime i ask.

i've never talked to a dominant before who actually enjoyed bratty behavior, although i have talked to a few who were baffled by it and thought it meant they weren't "domly enough" to subdue the submissive in question. to me, that kind of behavior from a submissive would bespeak a problem with the submissive, not with the dominant's ability. then again, i'm sure there are couples who enjoy it quite consensually...it just seems like a waste of time and energy to me, and as though it brings more harm than good. 

i do think that corporal punishment could be used to reinforce the feeling of being controlled, but i think that oftentimes bratty behavior is rewarded and encouraged by negative attention.


< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 1/1/2007 9:48:27 PM >

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 9:48:46 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

So their answer to this, rather than to ask for greater challenges or to find greater challenges for themselves.. was to manipulate their doms by misbehaving in an attempt to garner attention and to enjoy a spanking.  They got what they wanted.  Therefore - the dom was nothing more than a pawn in their game.  They controlled the situation, they controlled the Dom. 

The only thing the dom's in question achieved was to ensure that they gave their submissives the power to dictate the terms of their relationship.


this is my biggest problem with bratty behavior. most often it is nothing more than "topping from the bottom." i really admire and agree with     your posts on this thread, typea :)

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 10:07:03 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Edited to add, having just seen her post above mine, and the "Anyone who has gone to law school..." remark, that my Master is a lawyer, law professor and judge pro tem.  Ah the irony. 


Oooooph!

Some years ago (like 10), i dated a judge.  At the time, i thought he was rather bossy.  Really wished i had met him after i got into D/s 
 
i also dated a couple of lawyers.....same thing.  They had this way of saying 'This conversation is over now'.  Oh god, i couldn't stand that!      Don't imagine you ever get that....lol.
 
DG

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 10:19:23 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Edited to add, having just seen her post above mine, and the "Anyone who has gone to law school..." remark, that my Master is a lawyer, law professor and judge pro tem.  Ah the irony. 


Oooooph!

Some years ago (like 10), i dated a judge.  At the time, i thought he was rather bossy.  Really wished i had met him after i got into D/s 
 
i also dated a couple of lawyers.....same thing.  They had this way of saying 'This conversation is over now'.  Oh god, i couldn't stand that!      Don't imagine you ever get that....lol.
 
DG


He is the first lawyer I have ever admitted to liking, LOL.  He has ended conversations when he felt they needed to be ended, yes.  Heh.  Hard lessons to learn. 

I was thinking more about this thread.  Not sure how we got on the theme of punishment when the OP was about obedience being boring...or not boring.  But in a way it goes hand in hand, as discipline and yes, sometimes punishment can be required to bring about complete obedience.  My owner has mastered me by getting into my head and heart, and teaching me from the inside out.  He has used his knowledge of human behavior to help me achieve this, and his realization that human psychology does not consist of a list of absolutes.  Understanding that each individual is unique and inspired and motivated in his/her own way, he took the time to know me intimately - how I think, what I feel, what my buttons are, what excites me, etc., to gear his management of me in a way that would work best to bring out my best.  This is why I have trouble agreeing with universal statements that somehow profess absolutes for all humans.

As to the topic of brattiness, that is something I have not engaged in with my Master, nor would it be tolerated for a moment.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 10:29:16 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Hardly...minor punishment for minor infraction. Major punishment for major infraction.  That is the order of things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

Physical punishments I have found to be most effective for minor infractions...the sort of disobedience that arises from a lack of mindfulness moreso than outright rebellion. 


....talking about over prescribing....



Yes and Doctors that over prescribe medications use the same arguement... minor medication for minor ailments.....

It still doesn't treat the under lying issues is many cases....   But many Dominants look for a quick fix than requires little effort on their part.  Instead of focusing on the underlying issues and motivations that are causing the inappropriate behaviors.  It takes effort to go there... most in my experience are not willing to do the work.





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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 10:29:22 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

You mean, is behaving more boring than spending 12 hours a day in chat rooms?

 
Hahahaha!
Being 'made' (because I would never do it voluntarily) to be in a chat room for an hour would be evil punishment for me.
 
Missy.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 10:46:14 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Not when taken in context with the sentences following it.  I am not indicating that punishment is useless.. I am indicating that if your goal is to abolish the unwanted behaviour and replace it with more appropriate behaviour, physical punishment will not achieve that.


Actually even with regards to the context that you want to add your absolute would be wrong in some situtions.  But again.... I do agree that physical punishment is not the most effective method in your given context and in most cases actually.


quote:


This is more specifically true in the case of brats who intentionally misbehave for the sake of attention or to feed their masochism.  Giving physical punishment to such people is utterly useless.  It is the equivalent of giving a bone to a dog who just ate a child.  You are rewarding the poor behaviour. 


You make an assumption that pain a masochist would recieve would all be considered equal.... fact is... not all pain is considered equally pleasurable by a masochist.   Therefore, if a pain is delievered to a Masocist that they in fact don't enjoy it would result in negative reinforcement and something to be avoided.  Now as someone that plays with more than a few Masocists... I have found it rather easy to find a pain that a masocist will not enjoy. 

Secondly,  It is only irrelevant that a brat is intentionlly misbehaving for the sake of attention and to feed their masochism.  As I indicated ... masochism for any masochist is going to be divided into positive and negative.  If the Dominant is giving a pain that is actually positive to the Masochist then.. you point would be correct.  However, if the pain is actually negative to the masochist then your point would be wrong.  I would also indicate that what is once a negative pain could evolve into a positive pain if a Dominant is not careful.   Making the whole process of physical punishment with a masocist complicated and a high risk of not being as effective as other methods.

Lastly, physical punishments are not usually in themselves without an emotional and/or intellectual component.  A "masocist brat" that is acting up for attention can both be give the negative pain they don't want and also closed emotional from the Dominant in the process.  In otherwords... Understanding the motivations of the submissives behavior is critical in deciding what is the appropriate corrective action that should be taken.  Unfortunately, like I stated before, to many Dominants what to just grab the rod so they don't spoil the child.  It's narrow thinking and generally ineffective in the long run if not counter productive. 

_____________________________

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to TypeAsub1)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/1/2007 11:59:09 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		You are making a straw man argument.  Your logic escapes me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Hardly...minor punishment for minor infraction. Major punishment for major infraction.  That is the order of things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

Physical punishments I have found to be most effective for minor infractions...the sort of disobedience that arises from a lack of mindfulness moreso than outright rebellion. 


....talking about over prescribing....



Yes and Doctors that over prescribe medications use the same arguement... minor medication for minor ailments.....

It still doesn't treat the under lying issues is many cases....   But many Dominants look for a quick fix than requires little effort on their part.  Instead of focusing on the underlying issues and motivations that are causing the inappropriate behaviors.  It takes effort to go there... most in my experience are not willing to do the work.





(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 80
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