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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 2:32:12 AM

swtnsparkling

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quote:

thetammyjo
So why do others respond when someone acts bratty?

I don't have an answer for that I've never been the brat-I've only seen the attention seeking brat get attention- lots of smiles and chuckles.

< Message edited by swtnsparkling -- 1/2/2007 2:38:11 AM >

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 5:11:52 AM

lillight

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People spending a lot of time online have to come up with "intellectual fun"..after all.. they are sitting at a computer typing .... In that light I saw their "bratiness" as a form of creative writing that provided them with entertainment. Afterall, whats the alternative "online"? Sitting on a chat typing "Yes Sir, No Sir, 3 bags full Sir". Chat is interactive, people have to come up with things to stimulate themselves, I think thats where all this online brattiness has been born from. I can see how they would think "being obedient or well behaved" as boring..it's not that hard to understand where they are coming from given the circumstances of their communication exchange.

Heck, in real life, sometimes I'm washing up and Master is reading. Not a word is exchanged yet we are still having a relationship...if there was a silence like that within an "online room" it would be as boring as heck.

So after coming to that realisation about online brattiness the next question tht came up for me was.. "Ok..so if they are just creating written entertainment for themselves and their chat partners, why can't they just admit that is what it is and stop pretending that its something else or anything more than that? Like they get so caught up in an online world they start defending their position and creating a whole reality around what it is to be submissive purely based on their online interactions. Statements like "obedience is boring" get made, stuff that if put to real life situations within a D/s relationship just wouldn't cut it. Like really, what "dominant" would want to have to continually deal with a submissive or slave who wants to tie them up, tie their shoelaces together, paint them, cover them in make-up while they're asleep, climb the walls and sit in the roof beams?" Yet online, that is the reality and anyone not participating in that is seen as "not fun, not submissive, too extreme, whacked in the head." It's all upside down and inside out when it comes to online D/s interaction in so many ways.

Obedience isn't boring...but perhaps "online" its dysfunctional for " typed interaction" on a long term basis..?

ok this makes too much sense to me. online it is so much harder to keep things from getting boring but with my Master, even online i would never go to the extreme of tying His shoelaces or anything of that nature. Disrespect is disrespect whether it is online or in real. i guess i would be considered boring but if you ask Him, i'm not and ultimately it is His opinion that matters.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 7:03:40 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
You are making a straw man argument. Your logic escapes me.

"I do not think that means what you think it means" Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

His logic escaping you hardly means that he's setting up a strawman. I don't see anything that looks like a strawman to me. And if it was, you'd obviously be easily able to poke holes into it.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 7:39:05 AM

CreativeDominant

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I personally don't find the idea of obedience boring. What is boring about a life where you can depend on someone doing what they have agreed to do...about actually being serious about her commitment to the relationship and to her submission within that relationship?

Obedience does not have to preclude humor, though as many have stated, there are an awful lot of people that equate obedience with boring. That, to me, is an indication of a narrow way of thinking. I find a sense of humor and playfulness necessary ingredients in any submissive for me to find them interesting. I appreciate even more the intelligence to be able to distinguish playful from bratty and humorous replies from smart-ass insolence.

I find brats, for the most part, to be the ones who actually want to be in control and yet have a hard time admitting that so they do so in terms of outward behavior. I personally don't need it at this point in my life and in looking back through my years...even when I was vanilla, I didn't like it and had little interest in it.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 8:53:28 AM

adaddysgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

It still doesn't treat the under lying issues is many cases.... But many Dominants look for a quick fix than requires little effort on their part. Instead of focusing on the underlying issues and motivations that are causing the inappropriate behaviors. It takes effort to go there... most in my experience are not willing to do the work.

i think a lot of people misunderstand the use of CP in a healthy D/s relationship (which i really have no need to define healthy).

For me, the result of the spankings was actually a process of me learning self discipline, something, admittedly, i am sorely lacking in. If there were any underlying issues, it was this lack of self discipline, and the CP was the motivation for improvement.

An example using the being late.....if he told me to be ready by 5PM, and i know it takes me an hour to get ready, i best have my ass up and around by at least 4PM. There were no excuses. Since the spankings, i only had a couple of more incidences of tardiness. One i recall specifically was when we were going out at 5 so i started getting ready at 4 but got a phone call from my cousin. i really did try to cut the conversation short but wasn't quite successful, so i ended up being late again.

my explanation was not acceptable so i was spanked. i was then told that perhaps to avoid this in the future, i should get ready earlier, then if something unexpected like that arises, i will have made time for it. Or, i could simply say "i can't talk right now....can i call you back later?" If on my own, i would not have done either of those. i just would have been late to where i was going....when there are obviously viable options for being on time. And because of the thought of the spankings, i was, in the future, motivated to take one of the above steps. But that took a lot of self discipline for me to do. But then again, that was his point.

To have to stand and examine my behavior was quite enlightening for me. And it turned into a method of growth. Just like pouting. For many years, that was a method i used to get my own way. With him, if i pouted too long (which i quickly learned how long was 'too long'), i was spanked. So as he said....i could choose to pout and get spanked....or not. So when i got in that mood, i really had to think twice about what i was doing....and he was not the type to remind me twice.

It was the same thing in a lot of areas (too many to go into here). True, some may go to great lengths to explore 'underlying issues'. Well, i know that i procrastinate. i know that i have time management issues. i know that i swear too much because it was a habit developed from years of working with guys in the law enforcement field....etc, etc, etc. i don't know what other underlying issues there are. Most of what was involved was just bad habits that developed over the years.

But he was by no means a lazy man. He kept up on everything i did, particularly those that involved 'the rules'. He was attentive in that way, and consistent. And over time, we were both quite pleased with the progress i made in many areas. His method just helped me to get there...and granted, it is not for everyone....and that is why i don't judge how or why others use CP in their relationships. They could have totally different goals than we had but hey, if that works for them, that's all that matters.

So many say that a 'good' Dom/Master promotes growth in his partner....and that is exactly what he did....just by a different means perhaps. From all our conversations (even prior to meeting) he realized i was not very 'internally motivated' so he worked with me on that. And for us, it worked. For me, that was real growth.

Again, i realize CP is not for everyone but for those who do utilize it as a means toward growth, they should not be disparaged for doing so. And i know there are some doms who actually seek out bratty subs. So be it....that really has nothing to do with me and mine. Why would i really care?

DG

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 9:03:20 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
You are making a straw man argument. Your logic escapes me.

It is hardly surprizing that this is the only response you are able to muster. But I suspect my logic doesn't escape most others.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 9:16:40 AM

afeathr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

Oh, I actually get off on obedience, so I would have NO clue. Obedience thrills me to no end. Iit thrills my Master as well. We "fit" and he's not at all boring - even though some people have called him tough, scary, uncompromising and well, some other terms that aren't exactly the nicest. I just say he's my Master and that I LOVE being his slave.

Yea...I guess we're boring to those who think that excitement is based on drama.

juliet

I can relate to you in many ways. Sir has been called many things "not nice," but we get along in such a wonderous way! I don't think that being obedient is boring at all, because our fun comes in other forms.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 9:29:49 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

i think a lot of people misunderstand the use of CP in a healthy D/s relationship (which i really have no need to define healthy).

I agree.

quote:

For me, the result of the spankings was actually a process of me learning self discipline, something, admittedly, i am sorely lacking in. If there were any underlying issues, it was this lack of self discipline, and the CP was the motivation for improvement.

So instead addressing the lack of self-discipline... an external motivation has established a new behavior that feigns the growth of self-discipline. Which is actuality is a developed behavior that is the result of an avoidence of negative reinforcement and not any actual self-discipline developement.

This is the problem with External Motivations... be they Negative or Positive... they may indeed create the behaviors that one wants... but the behaviors can become dependent on an external reinforcement to maintain/changee or grow the desired behaviors wanted. The very concept of Self-Discipline denotes an internal motivated behavior. Therefore, trying to create self-discipline with an external motivated factor is like using a hammer to pound a screw. It may appear to work... but usually the screw doesn't hold so good when it is pounded in. Just like using Negative Reinforcement to create Self-discipline... It may appear to develope the behavior wanted.... but remove the Negative Reinforcement... and see how well Self-Discipline is maintained.

I challenge any Dominant that thinks their Negative Reinforcement as actually developed internally motivated behaviors do the following. Go to your submissive and tell them they will no longer recieve punishement for failing to do X... to which they in the past got punished for. Make no other comments... just leave it to them. If the behavior is actually internally motivated... the behavior will not change. If it not... in time you will see the behavior fall back towards what it once was.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 1/2/2007 9:32:29 AM >

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 9:37:24 AM

MasterGremlin

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I spend a fair amount of time chatting in the yahoo chat rooms and if AOL is anything like yahoo (more affectionately known as "Yahell") then I think way too much is being read into it. Online and Reallife are two very very different things. Real world standards simply don't apply in cyberspace.
Just my humble opinion,
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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 9:38:00 AM

celticlord2112

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Geee...ouch?

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
You are making a straw man argument. Your logic escapes me.

It is hardly surprizing that this is the only response you are able to muster. But I suspect my logic doesn't escape most others.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 10:35:06 AM

adaddysgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

So instead addressing the lack of self-discipline... an external motivation has established a new behavior that feigns the growth of self-discipline. Which is actuality is a developed behavior that is the result of an avoidence of negative reinforcement and not any actual self-discipline developement.

This is the problem with External Motivations... be they Negative or Positive... they may indeed create the behaviors that one wants... but the behaviors can become dependent on an external reinforcement to maintain/changee or grow the desired behaviors wanted. The very concept of Self-Discipline denotes an internal motivated behavior. Therefore, trying to create self-discipline with an external motivated factor is like using a hammer to pound a screw. It may appear to work... but usually the screw doesn't hold so good when it is pounded in. Just like using Negative Reinforcement to create Self-discipline... It may appear to develope the behavior wanted.... but remove the Negative Reinforcement... and see how well Self-Discipline is maintained.

I challenge any Dominant that thinks their Negative Reinforcement as actually developed internally motivated behaviors do the following. Go to your submissive and tell them they will no longer recieve punishement for failing to do X... to which they in the past got punished for. Make no other comments... just leave it to them. If the behavior is actually internally motivated... the behavior will not change. If it not... in time you will see the behavior fall back towards what it once was.

i almost started a thread one time on the difference between internal and external motivation with regard to subs/slaves. my guess was that most would say they are internally motivated.....but i would have to be the first to admit that i am externally motivated.

True enough, the CP regulated my behavior while in that relationship....and i did revert back to old behaviors once on my own again. However, while i have to say that the behavior changes i went through with him yielded positive results overall in my life.....and 'bad habits' did transform into some very 'good habits'....i did lack the motivation in my life to continue such behaviors on my own.

If a Master has his slave walk a mile every night because even though she dislikes it, it is good for her....would she continue that behavior once out of the relationship? i would imagine only if she found good reason to do so.

If her Master just suddenly stopped making this particular demand while in the relationship, would the sub continue to do so on her own? my guess is that she may very well, particularly if she feels this is pleasing to him in some way. But then again, maybe not. i really don't know.

Since i do admit that my motivation is external, i see what i do pretty much as a type of behavior modification. But, my thought is that with repeated 'practice', the bad habits could change; over time new ones could be learned, just as the bad ones were. But this could take years....i was not with him long enough to see. So if i 'learned' not to swear and then after 5 years, he just stopped disciplining for that, would i start swearing again? i really don't know. i'd like to think i actually replaced a bad habit with a good one and it would be second nature by then, but i really have no way to claim this with certainty.

He was the one who set the boundaries on what he felt was unacceptable. It really just so happened that what he felt was unacceptable happened to be most of my bad habits. Just the way it worked out, i guess. But all i know is that for the first time that i can recall, i truly felt accountable for my actions. His method made me stop and think about that, made me think about what i was doing, and gave me the opportunity to choose other (desirable) options. i really liked that 'mindset'.

Now obviously our relationship involved much more than the CP, but since that is what we are talking about here, i will just leave it at that.

DG

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/2/2007 8:33:10 PM

KnightofMists

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adaddysgirl.... I find your honesty of your own situation to be commendable. I appreciate that you are looking at our exchange in a positive and honest manner in which anunderstanding and growth can occur for both of us, as well as those that are observing our interactions.

Your following statement is of particular importance to me....

quote:

If a Master has his slave walk a mile every night because even though she dislikes it, it is good for her....would she continue that behavior once out of the relationship? i would imagine only if she found good reason to do so.

I believe you are selling yourself short. I believe that you could find good reasons within yourself.... However... it is a question of learning how to do it and doing it at a pace that doesn't overwhelm a person. Character building can take years, but interestingly it can also occur rather rapidly as well. The difficult part is making the choice to begin.. and sticking to that choice. After that.. it does get easier.

editted to add... just as note.. there is already two character strengths that are noticable to me just from the forums.. one is Open-Mindedness... another would be Self-Honesty.... I suspect their are others as well. One builds character by drawing on the strenghts that are already there.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 1/2/2007 8:38:03 PM >

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/3/2007 12:14:24 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Thanks to you all for responding, I admit I was quite surprised at the quality and number of responses I had in return to this.

I don't think I will ever understand "brats"- just as I will never understand women being proud for being "bitches."

But then, some people will never understand "switches" or being proud to be a "slut" and, as I am both, I can understand that there are states of being which are beyond me as well.

To the ones who talked about online lives needing entertainment and juiciness to spice them up- that's an excellent point and thanks for the well needed reminder. After all, I only went to the chatroom because I was utterly bored being stuck in my old place with no car, everyone asleep, and not even a DVD player to enjoy. I used to be an avid chatter- weekends, weeknights, any available time. It was my "home to hang" really. And yes, it was because I didn't have any significant day to day relationships with anyone in my offline life, I didn't have any real life priorities or ways to enjoy myself. So I made it online.

While the subs enjoyed their lap sitting and drink serving and pool dunkings- I settled into more discussions. I often was made fun of because I kept wanting to talk about issues, rather than just give hugs and watch the doms give high 5's.

So the point about needing to keep things exciting when the relationship is online based or mainly online based makes a lot of sense to me.

I also should say I don't see anything WRONG with boring really- I think boring can be great. Boring means no health scares, no accidents, no serious worries. There's the ancient and way cliched curse of "May you live in interesting times." My life, on the whole, right now could be considered pretty darn boring. Yet it's a lot of fun and very much fulfilling for me.

In fact I think there are certain levels of intimacy and centeredness that one can only reach when they are comfy and happy being completely bored and still.

Oh and the point about letting them online and bind together to show off their state of punishment was dead-on and a very insightful point. Thank you for elaborating on that.

Cyber life is great, I love it and find cyber dynamics to be truly fascinating. But I lived my life as a cyber element at one point, and now when I go back and see the same screen names in the same chat rooms years later on Friday/Sat/Sun nights rather than out enjoying all there is to enjoy...I just feel alien and a little sad for them. I know they are where they choose to be and consider it to still be "their home" but I just can't imagine being so limited anymore.

Thanks again, this might be one of my fave threads ever.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/3/2007 12:38:56 PM

MistressSassy66

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I like obedience.Sometimes a little bit of being a brat can be fun.
If it occurs ALL the time then I get pissed and get that person out
of My barn.I have better things to do than waste it on senseless behavior.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/3/2007 3:57:54 PM

TypeAsub1

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Thank you!

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

So instead addressing the lack of self-discipline... an external motivation has established a new behavior that feigns the growth of self-discipline. Which is actuality is a developed behavior that is the result of an avoidence of negative reinforcement and not any actual self-discipline developement.

This is the problem with External Motivations... be they Negative or Positive... they may indeed create the behaviors that one wants... but the behaviors can become dependent on an external reinforcement to maintain/changee or grow the desired behaviors wanted. The very concept of Self-Discipline denotes an internal motivated behavior. Therefore, trying to create self-discipline with an external motivated factor is like using a hammer to pound a screw. It may appear to work... but usually the screw doesn't hold so good when it is pounded in. Just like using Negative Reinforcement to create Self-discipline... It may appear to develope the behavior wanted.... but remove the Negative Reinforcement... and see how well Self-Discipline is maintained.

I challenge any Dominant that thinks their Negative Reinforcement as actually developed internally motivated behaviors do the following. Go to your submissive and tell them they will no longer recieve punishement for failing to do X... to which they in the past got punished for. Make no other comments... just leave it to them. If the behavior is actually internally motivated... the behavior will not change. If it not... in time you will see the behavior fall back towards what it once was.

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/4/2007 8:11:14 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Thank you!

um your welcome... thou I am not sure why

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/5/2007 2:29:27 PM

TypeAsub1

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Because that IS the point. That IS d/s. Ultimately when someone REALLY internalizes... that is the point where real d/s occurs. Rare - but possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Thank you!

um your welcome... thou I am not sure why

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/5/2007 10:19:26 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TypeAsub1

Because that IS the point. That IS d/s. Ultimately when someone REALLY internalizes... that is the point where real d/s occurs. Rare - but possible.

Actually.. I am not sure that I would agree with that. Internal or Intrinsic Motivations

"... refers to doing an activity for the inherent staisfaction of the activity itself"

while External or Extrinsic Motivations

"... refers to the performance of an activity in order to attain some separable outcome....."

These are partial quotes from Richard M Ryan and Edward L Deci in their paper "Self-Determination Theory and the Facilitation of Intrinsic Motivation, social Development and Well-Being"

The full quote is

"The term extrinsic motivation refers to the perfomance of an activity in order to attain some separable outcome and, thus, contrasts with intrinsic motivation, which refers to doing an activity for the inherent satisfaction of the activity itself"

It is important that a person is internal/instrinsically motivated to be living or walking a path that gives them an inherent satisfaction. They walk the path not just because it gives some reward or they find this pot of gold and the end of the rainbow. They don't start and stay on this path because it takes them through hell here and there with the hopes of something brighter when they come out the other side. They choose to walk it because it gives them happiness just to be on the path.

However, to ignore the external/extrinsic motivations is foolhardy. Extrinsic Motivations are not just rewards or punishments. They include such things as improvements to our self-esteem/confidence. It includes things as a sense of relatedness with another person. No person is an island when they enter into a relationship. They evolve into an independent person into an inter-dependent person...if the relationship is a healthy one. We are motivated to maintain and grow these relationships for things that are separable. We look to take actions that cause happiness to our partners. We look to do things that give us things that we want. These things do not equate that a person doesn't have D/s.

D/s will have both Intrinsic and Extrinsic motivations. Neither is more important than the other. However... our extrinsic motivations will be intergrated into our relationships and our self-identities. Extrinsic motivations are healthy when they help us grow and become better individuals. When they serve to fulfill basic needs we require for a healthy and functional life. Yes we need to internalize... but we also must become inter-dependent in a healthy way.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 1/5/2007 10:21:02 PM >

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RE: Obedience = boring? - 1/6/2007 9:31:02 AM

tygressunleashed

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i for one enjoy some playful wrassling at times (as long as i lose of course!). Does that mean i wish to displease my Dom? Hell NO. Still, i find it hard to imagine a wressling match if one is ever so obedient and not "fighting back". This topic certainly caught my attention as it has been a concern of mine as well. If i should find a Dom who enjoys the playful wressling, will i be able to be obedient also (which is truly what my nature is) without boring Him? Do i have to give up the wrassling fun because my main desire is to please Him? i do believe that it can be a challenge but if a Dom likes a variety of an occasional physical display of dominance mixed in with the pleasant submission He could use the pushing of her limits as a way to incorporate that type of physical play into the D/s relationship when He wants it without her having to be labeled a "brat".

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