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Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping peopl... - 1/7/2007 10:16:58 PM   
MissMean


Posts: 20
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		I have a scene question for the Subs out there.  I am curious about the semi public dungeons of today.   I have been involved in the scene and gone to play parties some 20 years ago, for about ten years.   Ten years ago My slave died and I quit playing for the past ten years.  I am back now, and I am a Domme.  Not in a million fuckin years would I EVER treat a sub in this manner that will be described below.

Here is the example:
You go to a dungeon and meet a Top. You talk to the Top a few times and feel "good energy" and really open up to this flow.    The Top promises you the world.. says you'll be cared for if you play intensely.   You agree to do it.   Its a needle scene. Its your first intense scene.  The pain is far greater than you think it will be, but you grit your teeth and take it.  You are afraid that if you stop that you will let down this "well known" Top, and you dont want to make the Top look bad.   The play is intense, but in the middle of the play you have to pee really bad.   You ask to pee, and the Top says "Gee.. I think I should take out the needles because you might fall."    

You are so high in subspace you agree to it.   At this point, you'd pretty much agree to anything.  The Top could have gotten a cup and had you pee into it, but the Top doesnt.   You stagger off.  The Top offers no help.   You pee, come back to find out the Top has totally cleaned up the area.  The Top has quit.  You are sent to the kitchen. You are left in a room full of people you dont know to get out of sub space.  You crash hard, and faint out.  Some one comes to check you.   You think its the DM, but you cant tell because you are fairly new to the scene.  The Top comes back, sees you are out of it, and instead of helping you, the Top tells you to "snap out of it" due to fear of having the ambulance called.  You do as you are told.   You try to talk to the Top but you are ignored.

The Top doesnt call or talk to you in days.  You are in severe sub drop.  The Top could care less.  When the Tops' ex finds out about it, the sub calls and tells you that "The Top is a sadist. The Top doesnt care if you are droping.   The Top has zero concern for "aftercare."   Even though, in negotiations you were told by the Top that you would be "well taken care for in the moment."   The Top doesnt tell you that "aftercare" in his opionion does not count as "in the moment."   The ex accuses you of "faking" because you didnt "speak to the Top."    The fact that the Top has ignored you for four days is ignored.

You want to call the DM to ask about this sort of behavior,  but you are threatened by both the Top and the Top's ex.  Because you are new, you believe that these two people could effectively get you banned from more parties.  So you dont do anything.  You remain quiet because you believe the threats of the Top and the Ex..    I feel for this sub and I urged the sub to go speak to the DM, but the feeling is that the DM wont care because the Top is "well known."

My question to this story is this....   What sort of DMs and what sort of care is going on in a Dungeon like this?    Why didnt the person who saw the sub crash to the ground go get the DM?   Did that person think to go get the DM, or was that person the DM?     When something like this happens in a public-type play party, should everyone pretend that this didn't happen?   Because the Top is "well known" should all parties who witnessed this event keep their mouths shut?        Or have I just been out of the party scene for too long and THIS is the way parties are now held?   

I must be old.  I went to parties in the hey-day of Jay Wiseman's SM101 "SAFE SANE AND CONSENSUAL" play.  Currently this Top tells the sub that "this is the way leathermen play today."    Humm... Why does this not pass My "smells bad" test?   Am I the only Old School Domme who feels this way?  Is this what subs accept today as "good Sadistic play?"

I am a Sadist.  Make no mistake. There is nothing more I enjoy than having a delicious maso to play with.  Those delicious crys and moans send Me spinning.   Then when the scene is finished, warm touches, feeling them come back down, soft touches to bring the sub back into the "hear and now."    However, its something totally different, IMHO, to let a sub crash out from high sub drop and then claim "I'm sadistic, I dont care what happens to you, as long as I get to do what I want, and if you tell anyone, I will cause you to not be able to attend any more parties!"     When did this change happen?    Is this happening in all Dungeons now?   

Miss Mean
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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/7/2007 11:22:11 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Miss Mean,

If someone is stupid enough to do needle play with someone they don't know, agree to care "in the moment" without asking what that clearly vague statement means, then they have no business agreeing to do needle play with someone they don't know.

Reading your profile, the "no bail out clause" is certainly something Jay would laugh at and not in a polite way.  Many here would object to it.

My "smell test" detects a needy submissive who gets her needs for emotional connection through blackmail and drama.  While I don't play the way the dominant you speak of does, he never offered perpetual aftercare, and if you are grown up enough to scene casually at a party, you are grown up enough to deal with it.

(in reply to MissMean)
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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/7/2007 11:45:27 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		OK as a matter of looking at the scenario you presented in a different light.

Bottom obviously isn't liking the scene too much but seems unwilling to call out on the scene.
However the bottom does say "You know I really gotta pee"
As a top I might see that as an "OK I'm done let me outta here with a little saving of face"
So I take the needles out and let you go pee, thinking that's the end of the scene.


Now your scene says the potty break was called for in the "middle of the scene" I'm wondering where that information comes from accurately as the middle. For all we know the Top may have planned 6 more needles or 56 more needles.
(Point being you have heard only one side of the story and are ready to make a judgement)

Now granted the story you paint gives me reason to question but it is far from enough to make a judgement on if the Top did much of anything wrong.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 12:39:44 AM   
MissMean


Posts: 20
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		Hello SimplyMichael..

Four things before I comment on your remarks
.. First,, I did not say the Top was male, why are you making that assumption? 

Second.. I am asking questions about the actions of the DM, not the actions of the Top. 

Third, You might be correct in thinking Jay would laugh about marriage, or it's S/m version of collaring for life. However, you are incorrect in thinking that everyone would laugh at the fact that there IS  NO "bail out clause" in that type of relationship. You have made the assumption that "no bail out" refers ONLY to S/m play in My profile, and you are wrong.

Lastly, I didnt say that I had heard about this from just one person. 

Now.. about your remarks..
So are you saying that a Male Dom shouldnt care or consider what a sub asks him?    That someone NEW to needle play should know everything about it when the Male Dom is supposed to be "well known"?    In My way of thinking.. someone who is known in the scene should take extra caution when dealing with a novice.  

Do NOT take pot shots at My profile when you are leaping to conclusions!

Why would you think a sub is blackmailing when the Top in this scene was threatening HER when all she is ... is afraid?   "Perpetual aftercare" is vastly different than to talk on the phone about feelings one has after play.   What kind of Top would KNOWINGLY allow someone to dangle in the wind that was a novice? 

And why are YOU answering My post?... your profile and your sig line says you are a "crappy dom"... I was asking subs about DM's and dungeons!  lol.  Are you a sub as well?

Miss Mean


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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 1:01:34 AM   
MissMean


Posts: 20
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Archer

OK as a matter of looking at the scenario you presented in a different light.

Ok.. fair enough


Bottom obviously isn't liking the scene too much but seems unwilling to call out on the scene.

True.. and that I rack up to sheer inexperience.. the sub's fault.

However the bottom does say "You know I really gotta pee"
As a top I might see that as an "OK I'm done let me outta here with a little saving of face"
So I take the needles out and let you go pee, thinking that's the end of the scene.

Humm.. very good point!  Maybe that's what the Top was thinking.  

Now your scene says the potty break was called for in the "middle of the scene" I'm wondering where that information comes from accurately as the middle. For all we know the Top may have planned 6 more needles or 56 more needles.
(Point being you have heard only one side of the story and are ready to make a judgement)

I've heard about this story from two different people.  I have no idea how many needles the Top planned to insert.  And this is another very good point you are asking!   But.. My question is to the DM's actions,  not about the actions of the Top.    I do appreciate your fresh eyes looking at this incident.


Now granted the story you paint gives me reason to question but it is far from enough to make a judgement on if the Top did much of anything wrong.

This was just the very tip of the scene with the Top.  There were other actions and statements made that were far more inflamitory.   My questions are about the actions of the DM.    When a DM or someone at a party sees someone literally crash to the floor do they say anything?  Does anyone, other than the Top, who is not in the room when the sub falls, check on this person? 
 
When is it "Ok" for one person to threaten another (If you talk about this, I will tell people not to have you come to a party)?  When did this action become acceptable behavior of guests to a DM's dungeon?  Do DM's now ignore concerns and fears of newbies if they have a "well known" Top telling them that the newbie is wrong?  
 
I'd much rather believe that it was the Top trying to let the sub "save face."  A simple phone call of explaining his actions might have gone a long way to help the sub, but My questions revolve around Dungeons and the new breed of DM's.   As a Domme and a Sadist.. .I am very careful with Newbies.. because they ARE new.   I would have thought that DM's would have behaved the same way.  
 
*grin*.. I do thank you for giving Me another way to look at things..



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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 4:52:55 AM   
Tikkiee


Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline 		My question is this. Why should the DM be responsible?
 
Personally, I agree with what SimplyMichael has said in that it's the bottoms responsibility to pick partners that THEY KNOW well enough to do such activities with.

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 5:05:20 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
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I often see the dungeon Dom's not take any responsibility for after care.
In the year I played in public eheavily I did have a Sir.
Even still not one person I played with in the dungeon extremely ever gave me aftercare or checked on me the next day.
Many of them did talk to me after the scene to check and guage how we did, but no official aftercare was done by anyone but my Sir.
I think the trend is indeed that some dungeon Dom's think because you don't belong to them as an owned sub your aftercare is your own to manage.
Sad, but the way I see it too.
I have no idea when things changed as I have not been around quite 2 years yet.



(in reply to MissMean)
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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 5:09:30 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
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PS.. Dungeon moniters are there to make sure scenes don't go too far or cause health risks for those in the club.
It's not their job to make people behave deciently.
I don't think required aftercare is something any dungeon moniter is responsible for.
They are there to be sure people are safe.
If she passed out it then was their job to check on her, but again not to be sure she got aftercare.
suzanne

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 5:55:44 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, so lets look at it again through different eyes, with those of a DM then,
I seea needle scene, OK do they have all the right equipment? Does the person look technicly compitent
The girl goes to pee, and the Top has the forsight to prevent accidental needle sticks by removing them before letting the bottom walk through a group area. So far nothing for me to be involved with. I see the Top cleaning up their area, Cool someone who actually does this and doesn't leave the area for me or the rest of the staff to clean up (which is something I see far too often)The first thing I see that has any bearing on the DM as I was trained as a DM is when they find the bottom "passed out" Until that time there is no external sign that anything is amiss. Did the bottom go and find the DM and say hey Im in distress here? They walked to the bathroom under their own power, as well as to the kitchen.

All the next day stuff is way beyond a DMs job as well, so why include it if the question really is only about the DM's.

< Message edited by Archer -- 1/8/2007 5:56:48 AM >

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 7:20:15 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMean
My question to this story is this....   What sort of DMs and what sort of care is going on in a Dungeon like this?  

Uh, a good one?

DMs are there to help prevent serious physical injury and deal with it when it happens. 

quote:

 Why didnt the person who saw the sub crash to the ground go get the DM?   Did that person think to go get the DM, or was that person the DM?     When something like this happens in a public-type play party, should everyone pretend that this didn't happen?   Because the Top is "well known" should all parties who witnessed this event keep their mouths shut?        Or have I just been out of the party scene for too long and THIS is the way parties are now held?   

This can unfortunately happen.  But trust me, there's a reason this top goes after the newbies- because everyone else by that point has made up their mind about him.

Sure, the top sucks.  But hello, so does this little bottom we're talking about.  She made SO many mistakes and bad choices herself which she needs to take responsibility for. 

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 9:18:57 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		As someone that has never played in public, thanks very much for this post. I will never go to a dungeon without a dominant I am serious about and know he will care for me afterwards. Reading the responses makes me think I have even less interest than I did before in public play. I do not want to witness this lack of caring about other human beings, and if it is happenstance, well I want no part of it.

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 9:24:46 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
As someone that has never played in public, thanks very much for this post. I will never go to a dungeon without a dominant I am serious about and know he will care for me afterwards. Reading the responses makes me think I have even less interest than I did before in public play. I do not want to witness this lack of caring about other human beings, and if it is happenstance, well I want no part of it.

Well to balance this out Julia, I've played in public more times than I can remember, plenty of times with people I'd met only that night, and only once did I have a bad experience happen because of someone ELSE's choices. 

IMO, if you use good sense and listen to what's in front of you, playing in public is really no more dangerous than dancing in public.  Of course, not everyone enjoys dancing in public and that's fine.  But please don't let your decision be swayed by someone who made a lot of bad choices for herself versus all the great experiences that plenty of people DO have all the time.

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 9:26:20 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Julia,

Normally you are not this reactive.  We have an idiot submissive getting in over her head and someone who isn't warm and fuzzy agreeing to play with her.

Have you ever met a man in a bar?  I doubt you simply roll over for the first one?  Somehow I doubt it.  Same goes for parties, I know women who have played for years casually at parties without incident, I know Doms who give great aftercare.  If you make bad choices in vanilla life, BDSM ain't going to make your choices any better.  The OP is a perfect example of this.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 9:29:24 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Another example of surrendering self to another's responsibility before the person earned it. A "good" or "bad reputation is only as good as the last experience. Reputation is no consolation when the neighbor next door to the serial killer is questioned in front of a TV camera and says; "he was a quite guy and always returned any of the tools that he borrowed."

If you played with a safe-word and it wasn't "I have to go pee"; you didn't die - therefor the DM did his/her job.

quote:

I do not want to witness this lack of caring about other human beings, and if it is happenstance, well I want no part of it.
How do you leave your house every day?

Edited to add:

Seriously - the courtesy and respect I've witnessed in any club exceeds what I witness on the streets. No one walks over or around anyone "passed out" as they do daily on the streets of LA and as I remember the streets of NYC.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/8/2007 9:34:46 AM >

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 9:42:06 AM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		Since when is it the responsibility of DMs to protect the clueless?  Their primary purpose is to make sure the rules of the dungeon are followed, to offer assistance if requested, and deal with shit when/if it hits the fan.  They're not babysitters and they're not mind readers and they're certainly ot responsible for making sure someone provides aftercare to their victim.  The people in this little soap opera who need a thump on the noggin are the top and the bottom, not the DM.

As an adult, there is exactly one person responsible for your safety and that's you (and that's a generic "you," not *you* specifically).

~stef

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 9:49:34 AM   
Contesaluv


Posts: 173
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMean

When did this change happen?    Is this happening in all Dungeons now?   

Miss Mean


Whoa!  I wouldn't play in a place where I observed that individuals/subbies were not being tended to when necessary.  I can attest to the fact that this is not happening in all Dungeons now.  I play in a Dungeon here in Jersey that is a warm environment where the play is 100% safe, sane and consensual and aftercare is a very important part of the play sessions.  Subbies that I've played with who I may have met there for the first time are asked specific questions regarding there health and anything I should be aware of that may affect our play or anything I need to know in case of an emergency.  Afterward, I even go as far as to tell them that I want a call from them letting me know that they made it home okay.  That is standard policy for me whether or not we ever choose to play together again.  I am a human being and so are they.  I derive joy and pleasure from taking them to and at times past their limit if and in whatever way we've agreed upon.  I do not derive pleasure in treating someone as if they are just an object that once I'm done with it, and feel I have no  use for it, I just discard it.  That's not my style, nor is it the style of the Mistresses who own the dungeon that is open for anyone in the lifestyle who truly wants to play in a safe, sane and consensual environment.  I'm also one who tells the subbie that they must have safe words and that I will push them to use it to ensure that they are not trying to hold out just to impress me or make me proud.  They are told this from the very beginning because I want them to know that it's okay to have them and to use them, especially when they're playing with another Mistress who might be much harsher in her style of play then what they're used to.  I abhor anyone who takes advantage of a subbie just because they are that and threatens them out of their desire to remain grand in the eyes of others.  Unreal!!  My reputation is important to me and for that reason I don't engage in the types of conduct that you've presented here.  Shame on them.

_____________________________

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It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
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------------------------
In a world of so many variables, why do you have to be the norm? Anonymous

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 9:55:02 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		This is in response to julia.
I too agree with LA you get what you give in life. The dungeon is not a safe haven and it's OK to play with everyone there no more than in the rest of the world.
You have to remember this woman without talking to this man and expressing her hard limits or expectations decided to play with him as he seemed well liked.
Mind you what happened showed he was indeed not up to snuff on her aftercare, but he thought he had played consensually I would think by what's been mentioned here.
It is IMO more of a gamble to play in private with someone than it is a risk to play in the dungeon.
In all the times (and there were many) I played with strangers all of them respected my limits, and I enjoyed the energy they shared with me aftercare or not.
I personally don't even want aftercare from someone I'm not emotionally attached to other than going over likes and dislikes in a scene so it's not something I seeked from the Doms in the dungeon.
It's very true none of the dungeon people offered aftercare, but being I had a Sir I think most assumed that would be TKO by my Sir.
Over all I think you have a much better chance of finding someone you are interested in face to face places, you get a chance to see the people you're interested in playing or interacting with others, and if indeed he's unskilled the DM are there to be sure you indeed are physically OK the whole time you're there.
I'd be WAY more Leary of playing in private parties, or alone than in he dungeon.
LOL now the big high school social grape vine, fake people and attitudes in the dungeon are a whole other thing to consider about public play, but let's not hijack the thread if you want more info contact me off the board.

suzanne


(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 10:09:27 AM   
valeca


Posts: 403
Joined: 1/9/2006
Status: offline 		Used fast reply.

quote:

.. First,, I did not say the Top was male, why are you making that assumption? 


I can answer that one.  Because you refered to the Top as a male in your OP.

quote:

The Top doesnt tell you that "aftercare" in his opionion does not count as "in the moment." 


And continued to do so in subsequent posts:

quote:

I'd much rather believe that it was the Top trying to let the sub "save face."  A simple phone call of explaining his actions might have gone a long way to help the sub,...


Although, I did note the attempt to keep gender out of the question even if there were a few oops's

As for the question, there definitely appears to be more venom pointed toward the Top than the DM.  That said, I think the DM (with as much information we've been given to work with) did what they were there to do--monitor the scene.  What happens after is, to me, the responsibility of the individual to prepare for ahead of time.  It's just using your smarts.  Trying something completely foreign with someone relatively new to you, and not having your own backup prepared (beforehand) is, I feel, using poor judgement.  I might have been consentual, but the choices were neither safe, nor sane.  I much prefer Risk Aware Consentual Kink, anyway.

quote:

Some one comes to check you.   You think its the DM, but you cant tell because you are fairly new to the scene.


As far as we know, the DM did their job.  Being new to the scene isn't really an excuse in this case.  The minute the sub got there, she (or he) should have taken note of who the DM's were...for her (or his) own safety, and to know who to go to if problems arose.

I see a few more problems with the scenario (and sadly, they point to more poor choices on the part of the sub), but the ones above were the most glaring.

Edit: Onestandingstill, I feel this exact same way:
quote:

I personally don't even want aftercare from someone I'm not emotionally attached to

The person I would like doing aftercare most definitely needs to be someone I trust, someone who knows what is a good reaction and what is a bad reaction on my part (especially if I'm not able to voice it myself).  I wouldn't feel comfortable with a stranger doing aftercare on me, at all.


< Message edited by valeca -- 1/8/2007 10:14:39 AM >

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 10:18:19 AM   
hammernhoney


Posts: 268
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		For the most cases DMS do a great job,it seems that there aren't enought qualified dm around .Maybe training sessions should be offered some wheres.I had the great honor of DM at a well respected leather even several years ago..500 people and myself made for quiet a job.SO the solution we came up with was 2 hour shifts and two of us on together.IT made things easier to keep track of...sceaning with some one you just met isn't a good idea but of course as always just the views of this ol MASTER...william

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 10:21:52 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		FR

Here is the deal, this whole discussion reminds me of incidents where someone is gang raped because they get drunk and passed out. Well it is her fault because she drank so much, and it is her fault because she did not know whom she was drinking with, and ... and .. and .. and...

I do not buy that shit. Surely she could have made better decisions, but that in no way excuses the top for not making sure she was ok after making her into a pin cushion. It in no way excuses those around her if she was passed out on the floor and no one cared to even check if she was ok or needed medical attention. I would not leave anyone passed out on the floor... uncaring, unfeeling... and then blame them for it.

Call this submissive whatever you will, but that is not the issue in my mind. I guess I am from a small little town bordering Yosemite National Park... you just do not treat people like that no matter how "stupid" they are. How many hikers have been idiots and lost their way along the trails of the Sierras where I grew up? I lost count... we still sent search and rescue after them.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to onestandingstill)
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