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Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 10:23:22 AM

Elegant

Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline

starting a new post so as not to completly hijack another

In another post someone stated:

quote:

The question us"why is there anger in the scene"?S and m is a sharing of the experience,I hate a pain pup or other wise that just soaks it up and doesn't give back...After care for us involves lots of things ..Plenty of liquid and that warm fuzzy blanket someone spoke about..Taking care of any open cuts that may have happen etc...I still at lost about the angry statement,if we go there during play what could happen? tons of things..anger has no place in s and m...bounty

Anger has no place in S/m? Is that a law?

Master and I have used S/m as an outlet for anger quite a few times. Granted, that is not an avenue I would travel with a casual play partner but with Master, who I trust implicitly, we can often come to catharsis through pain or creating pain.

Your thoughts?

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

Post #: 1

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 10:44:22 AM

onestandingstill

Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

starting a new post so as not to completely hijack another

In another post someone stated:

quote:

The question us"why is there anger in the scene"?S and m is a sharing of the experience,I hate a pain pup or other wise that just soaks it up and doesn't give back...After care for us involves lots of things ..Plenty of liquid and that warm fuzzy blanket someone spoke about..Taking care of any open cuts that may have happen etc...I still at lost about the angry statement,if we go there during play what could happen? tons of things..anger has no place in s and m...bounty

Anger has no place in S/m? Is that a law?

Master and I have used S/m as an outlet for anger quite a few times. Granted, that is not an avenue I would travel with a casual play partner but with Master, who I trust implicitly, we can often come to catharsis through pain or creating pain.

Your thoughts?

There is a BIG difference in playing for stress relief and hitting a sub in anger in my opinion.
I think hitting me in anger is physical abuse and non-consensual in my personal opinion.
A great thread a few months ago had several experienced Doms who'd stated being angry and punishing a sub is OK.
They said it should not ever be a knee jerk reaction to a situation or conversation that pissed you off.
So based on their view I can see they mean they were angry enough to punish, but the punishment was not a reactory one, but carried out calmly and with great discipline.
suzanne

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 2

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 10:46:23 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Reposted:
I'm one of the ones who think it's ok to take someone's anger out on someone else- if it's done in a healthy, fulfilling, consensual way.

It's a great gift to be able to take away pain from someone- whether it's pain of sickness, or pain of heart, or pain of emotion. It's not something I do lightly or frivolously, but I do think it can be a great and wonderful thing to have.

and

For me it's because I don't like pain. So, when someone makes me go through a lot of pain, I'm not particularly thrilled about it or the person giving it to me. In fact, it pisses me off mightily.

But that's not a bad thing- most people in the scene can understand the idea of catharsis. For me I don't limit it to just crying, or releasing guilt (in fact I don't really experience that guilt type of catharsis at all), it's ALL emotions, including fear and anger and raw primality.

If anger has no place in S&M, then I guess I have no place in S&M either. I'm still going to keep doing what I've been doing.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_763137/mpage_1/key_anger/tm.htm#763167
Conflicting Desire for Aftercare

http://www.collarchat.com/m_750531/mpage_8/key_anger/tm.htm#761529
Going too far

http://www.collarchat.com/m_710371/mpage_2/key_anger/tm.htm#711556
Masters Temper

http://www.collarchat.com/m_584154/mpage_1/key_anger/tm.htm#584247
Primal Zone

http://www.collarchat.com/m_403611/mpage_1/key_primal/tm.htm#403617
Resistance, force, primal, wrestling, play rape, etc?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_336357/mpage_1/key_force%252Cplay/tm.htm#336362
Fighting back

http://www.collarchat.com/m_257243/mpage_1/key_force%252Cplay/tm.htm#257283
Fighting back for fun!

http://www.collarchat.com/m_157286/mpage_1/key_force%252Cplay/tm.htm#157426
Fighting Back

http://www.collarchat.com/m_139472/mpage_1/key_force%252Cplay/tm.htm#139477
A challenging submissive

http://www.collarchat.com/m_110661/mpage_1/key_force%252Cplay/tm.htm#110673
Force

http://www.collarchat.com/m_76392/mpage_1/key_force%2Cplay/tm.htm
The premise of forced play

http://www.collarchat.com/m_214517/mpage_1/key_primal/tm.htm#214524
Releasing the beast within

http://www.collarchat.com/m_153621/mpage_1/key_primal/tm.htm#153823
Rage

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 3

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 10:49:33 AM

onestandingstill

Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
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I don't know how LA does it but this is the thread I found that was on this topic.

If you were hit in anger
Ask a Submissive/Slave
trixr4kids
60
1142

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 4

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 10:57:45 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
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Thsi one last post and then I shall let it die..*Question*can you control your angry?IF so then fine.Punishment should be just that punshiment,IT should never occure during play.THATS my two cents and I am sticking too my statment angry has no play in s and m...BOUNTY

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

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Post #: 5

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 10:59:11 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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I'm not comfortable playing when I'm angry however Fox has offered himself to me to be a target when I am angry. Frankly it makes me afraid and that would not help with my anger. One of the few "yelling episodes" with Fox was around this issue once when he could see I was very angry and was trying to provoke me into beating him to relieve it but all it did was make me afraid and I think I cried.

What helps me is when my partners (slaves or spouse) focuses on me and listens, maybe gives me pillows to punch or we go throw rocks at the ground together, or we kill things in a video game, while he tells me "you have a right to be angry" or "I'd be so angry, too, if that happened to me".

This happened just yesterday when I walked into my class to discover that the printer messed up my students' course manual. Threw my entire day's study and work plans into disarray and I had to be stern with the printer -- up side: my students all get replacement manuals at no cost to them or the university.

I soon as Fox picked me up he could feel the waves of anger from me. We talked about it until I was calmer then he drove us home. We talked about it while I made dinner and after dinner -- Tom also added his support.

Stuff happens that I can't control, I'm not a god no matter if I'm a dominant or not. I have to learn to cope with that reality, learn to express it and finally learn to let it go by myself. Talking helps me do that in a way that doing SM just wouldn't work for me.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 6

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 11:13:48 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
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From: Charleston, WV
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I don't see why SM can't be a valid tool in dealing with "stuff". Certainly, catharsis happens and meditation can be encouraged by some activities. Note, however, that "tool" is different than "coping mechanism". A CP, in my mind, is something that I use to get through an experience...like taking a walk when I'm depressed. A "tool" is something I use to do internal work to look at WHY I'm depressed. It's also a "tool" to create energy for rituals.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 7

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 11:13:51 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

I do not have a problem with anger in a scene. I only have a problem and a big one if uncontrollable anger is in a scene.

If my Master wants to do a scene to take out some anger with me, another person or just to release stress then why not? It obviously depends on the person and their own ability to control themselves based on their own moods but I think it is quite unfair to have a gross generalization that a Master cannot ever do something when anger is in his feelings. As a slave I have asked/beg for things done to me when I have had these feelings, why would I prevent my Master from having this available to him as well?

I understand for the lowest common denominator issues that no one really wants to preach this as it can be a grey area but a person that can control his anger can be perfectly good to do a scene.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 8

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 11:14:38 AM

LadyMorgynn

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: N. Carolina
Status: offline

This is a critical issue even if S&M isn't involved. I'm a 24/7 lifestyler. I make no bones to My slave that should I be in a temper, he has permission... indeed, is even encouraged! ...to play "least in sight" until the storm has passed, and I will never remonstrate with him for doing so. It is not the part of My slave to take the brunt of My anger at someone else.

Of course, if my anger is directed at him, then obviously there is some communication that will be needed. And in that case even MORE I prefer him to remove himself from my immediate presence until I have myself under better control and can be calm and rational and have had time to think how to deal with the situation, rather than scalding everyone in sight.

If I *need* to take my anger out on someone, then I have no business owning a slave, and even less business having a whip in my hand.

I have to say, I like TammyJo's idea of punching pillows or going out to throw rocks together and letting it all out... kinda like the limo scene in "My Chauffeur" after the guy's fiancee dumped him <g>

_____________________________

---
Lady Morgynn
www.farhorizons.net/LadyMorgynn

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 9

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 11:22:26 AM

FelinePersuasion

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Joined: 11/20/2004
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I haven't experinced what I want to yet, the ocasion has never presented itself when someone was around to act on it. However I know in my mind when I am pissy and cranky and I am spoiling for a piss fit with someone else* it's usualy my partner, he's only one I talk to tons* I think that a good spanking or other hard play to break my pissyness wide open and end it would be wonderful.

Same when negative emotions are swirling about and threatening to drown me, I used to be a cutter, haven't been for years, sometimes desires to harm and be in pain come up and it'd be nice if he was around in those times to exhaust me beyond believe with some hard play, so I am to tired and eventually mellow to even think about harming.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

I don't see why SM can't be a valid tool in dealing with "stuff". Master Fire

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 10

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 11:22:57 AM

Archer

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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There is angry and there is not in control of yourself, two very different things. I've been mad as hell but still in control of myself many times both in and out of scene times and spaces. If I'm not in control of myself then I'll agree as a Top I am "Out of Order" as far as play and or punishment is concerned.
But if I am still in full control of myself then anger is just another emotion.

On the other hand there is the bottom who does not have to remain in control of themselves, matter of fact getting them out of thier "self control" is kinda the point isn't it?

If we are to believe that SM is about tapping into the primal emotions and that emotions are a viable part then all emotions seem to me to be equally viable as a part of SM. That is not to say that some emotions dont require more or different precautions. Different emotions different risks.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 11

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 11:31:25 AM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

GR:

In my experience I have found that anger usually makes for poor judgement calls.

In general, anger is an emotion that can cause people to make mistakes when and where they ordinarily wouldn't.

Im not saying it's not possible for someone to be pissed off and in control of their actions. But I doubt it's the ideal time to be wielding an implement that could cause harm to another person's body.

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 12

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 11:54:11 AM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
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Dear Elegant, Ladies and Gentlemen;

Anger has many points of origins. Anger is an emotion. Anger is primal. Anger needs a place to go.

That said, I would prefer 'anger' to be channeled outside and vented on something without feelings, like a wall, a boxing balloon, etc.
Especially when the rage is such, where the control is not there.

Yet, control is management of anger. Channel the energy from within as to boost the natural chemical mix within the body, as to enhance the power and the flow of energy can give a Sadist a bit more 'horsepower' per se to their impact.

In my mind's eyes I see; when anger is produced by a slave's behavior--it is not the time to have impact interaction. There is an opportunity to be primal in the moment of anger. It is nature's emotion but, in the modern scene--when so much abuse is done by those who are not of good M/s or D/s character and or have ethics; it is my open wish that the response is delayed. It is not like Justice is denied..just delayed. It gives a moment to see the entire unfolding of how one got to the part of anger. Judicious adjudication of punishment can then be applied. However, it is recognized as being more controlled and thoughtful.

In my mind's eyes I see, that the slave/submissive in receiving the impact from an anger root; should be given awareness of where that anger stems from. Mentally, emotionally and spiritually--they can set their physical state into the frame to receive it. If they are the cause of such anger, their mental, emotional and spiritual side can put into motion the atonement and forgiveness processes. If they are an instrument of relief but are blameless, they have an opportunity to mentally, emotionally and spiritually process the energy and take it into their physical side. The bounce back of energy of a slave can be just as healing to a Master as it is in reverse under the umbrella of catharsis. In summary, as a Master I want my slave to take their 'self' into the place where it needs to be for the manifestation to take place and be completed. For my catharsis or theirs.

All emotions have their own signature energy and transmission of 'said' energy. By identifying the energy signature, it enhances the awareness and sensations by both parties involved.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 13

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 12:25:42 PM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

I was taught never to strike a sub in anger, but from reading through some of the other threads recently, I have come to realize the important thing is to never strike when you are not in control. Several have already pointed out that being angry isn't necessarily the same as being out of control.

I would add but one stipulation, if someone is going to strike you in anger, be damn sure you trust that person to be in control of their anger. For those who have been in a long term realtionship, the trust has been built. I sure wouldn't go there without that trust in place.

Bottom line though, as long as both parties are in agreement about the issue, the line can be drawn wherever you agree it should be.

With respect, Sir Dominic

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 14

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 12:40:56 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

starting a new post so as not to completly hijack another

In another post someone stated:

quote:

The question us"why is there anger in the scene"?S and m is a sharing of the experience,I hate a pain pup or other wise that just soaks it up and doesn't give back...After care for us involves lots of things ..Plenty of liquid and that warm fuzzy blanket someone spoke about..Taking care of any open cuts that may have happen etc...I still at lost about the angry statement,if we go there during play what could happen? tons of things..anger has no place in s and m...bounty

Anger has no place in S/m? Is that a law?

Master and I have used S/m as an outlet for anger quite a few times. Granted, that is not an avenue I would travel with a casual play partner but with Master, who I trust implicitly, we can often come to catharsis through pain or creating pain.

Your thoughts?

My mind is still not completely settled in this arena as of yet. I can see the point of those who state that anger is just one more emotion to be brought under control. I can see the point of those who say that they use "play" when they are dealing with anger to create a cathartic situation. I can also see the point of those who state that you do not hit a submissive in anger.

There are reasons in support and reasons in non-support of all of the points of view above. For me and where I am in my life right now, I would choose not to hit a submissive while I am angry...whether at someone else or at her. I think that for me, hitting her while angry at her hits my own inner self as too closely resembling abuse. In coming to the idea a few months ago that in my world, physical punishment is O.K. in rare instances, I also came to the conclusion that I would never punish while angry, just as I do with non-physical punishment. Hitting her while angry at another...while it may be cathartic...might also work on my conscience as me taking out on her what I cannot/choose not to take out on another. It may even be a subconscious way of avoiding dealing with an unpleasant situation elsewhere and then, once you realize that, you would also have to ask yourself why you are not dealing with that situation.

***In case it was not made clear, the above reflects my thoughts and my thoughts only. They may be right for you also or they may only be right for me. Due to this conflict, I cannot and will not accept responsibility for your choice to implement my way of thinking as your own...although if you do and receive accolades for it, then I expect to be given all credit and a cash payment in lieu of worship.
Void where prohibited.
These answers intended only for those over the age of 18. Thank you for your cooperation***

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 1/9/2007 12:41:57 PM >

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 15

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 12:43:50 PM

LordVelvet

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline

I agree with LA. I have taken out "anger" before and what a release it is to have a submissive there. It is not for all. I have only done it twice in that manner. Those times they worked for Me. Just My opinion.

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 16

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 12:46:34 PM

Archer

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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Actually if they don't see it clearly as your personal view they need a remedial reading course, LOL.

Believe me I wasn't always of the view I have now, I was hammered with "never in anger" when I was learning as well. I have come to this view slowly over years of exploring the idea.
Certainly I'm not saying that everyone should include anger in their play. But rather that anger is not nessisarily abusive, nor is it specificly antethical to safe SM.

< Message edited by Archer -- 1/9/2007 12:47:13 PM >

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 17

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 12:48:31 PM

Elegant

Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
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Just to note (cause all these comments seem to focus on the Top):

Master Archer and I have been 'experimenting' with a reverse anger-related play..letting me release my rage 'on' him in a controlled manner. Our workshop synopsis:

~Fighting For Your Mind - Primal Purge Ritual

The warrior spirit is part of us all. It’s a fundamental, provoking force that can turn the meek into the formidable. Being a warrior is an emotional and primal reality as much as it’s a moral and spiritual one Rage, fear, terror, anger, fury. A primal purge ritual enables the warrior spirit to release these emotions in a safe and yet primal way, something a bottom doesn’t often get to do. A primal act sends a very strong message to the subconscious mind to ‘let it all hang out!’ Learn the difference between Primal Purge Ritual and resistance play, how to achieve and recognize the initial signs of bottom rage, how to stay in control of your scene and positively harness the after effects

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to LordVelvet)

Post #: 18

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 12:50:37 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I do not see it as having a place in what we do. My Daddy's first submissive always attempted to piss him off so he would angrily beat her, but that was not his thing. I do not get off on him being mad when he hits me. I do not even get remotely aroused by that idea.

Now other people DO enjoy this, and that is their thing, but the idea of him being angry when he hits me is scary to me. People often do not know how hard they are hitting when they are adrenalized. But if that is the kinda play that does it for them, and they are aware of the risks, well Go Them

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 19

RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/9/2007 12:54:54 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

Those of us who will not be hit when the top is angry are those of us who have had the unhappy experience(s) of being with someone who used anger as a reason to get out of control and bully, or even abuse, anyone weaker.

Nothing different here than the man who goes home and backhands his wife because dinner isn't ready instead of getting into a fight with the biker who cut him off in traffic.

And to those of us with these past experiences, anger is always a frightening thing because we know how fragile control while angry can be. You see, we've spent years walking on eggshells to avoid being the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 20

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