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men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 9:43:05 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I originally posted this as a response to someone else's thread, but I thought it deserved it's own as it is a very important issue. First, I'd like to say that this is not meant as an attack on consentual polygamy and swinging. I'd also like to compliment the men this doesn't apply to.

I have noticed that many (not all) men have a tendency to think of women they engage in bdsm with as play partners. Meanwhile they date, fall in love with, and marry vanilla women. Of course these vanilla wives can't satisfy their bdsm desires, so they continue to have secret play partners and cheat on their wives. It enrages me to hear men with vanilla wives complain about the lack of bdsm in their marriages. I'll bet many of the play partners they used and discarded would've loved dating them. They would rather be unfaithful in their marriages than consider dating, falling in love with, and marrying someone who could fulfill both their bdsm and vanilla needs. Obviously it makes more sense to have someone who meets all needs than a relationship where something is always missing. This isn't rocket science. It's simple logic that for some reason many (not all) men are incapable of understanding, even when it's repeatedly explained to them. Why do so many men who are otherwise intelligent have such a difficult time grasping such a simple concept? I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this subject. I'd also like to hear from anyone who has successfully overcome this obstacle with a man and how they did it.
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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 9:45:17 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I really don't think men do this any more than women do it.  Men are just more well known for their cheating, in fact it's almost expected of them.

I think most people grow up trying to fit into one way and eventually they realize it's not working.  These days, they get to go online and "discover themselves" and find an outlet to cheat.

New methods, same issues.  Men no different from women.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 9:57:45 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		LA,  you're right as usual. I'll rephrase the question. How does one overcome this obstacle with a man or woman who has bdsm needs but only dates vanilla?

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 10:01:18 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
LA,  you're right as usual. I'll rephrase the question. How does one overcome this obstacle with a man or woman who has bdsm needs but only dates vanilla?

Gosh I just avoid them.  They are obviously conflicted and trapped and need to decide for themselves what will work for them.  And, like a junkie, I wait until they've been "clean" for quite awhile before making any serious commitments with them.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 10:17:10 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		 
quote:

 How does one overcome this obstacle with a man or woman who has bdsm needs but only dates vanilla?

 
i am not too keen about secret or 'in the closet' BDSM personally, but when you add lying and/or cheating to the mix, i am typically so repulsed that i cant even be civil to them, let alone date one.
 
if this is your fella you are desribing...i might ask why are you willing be a secret?
 

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 10:18:29 PM   
MasterGremlin


Posts: 230
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		My father cheated on my mother for 17 years.  One of the things he used to tell his bimbos was that my mother was this horrible bitch monster who was frigid.  The truth was that my mother was too nice and too niave.  The point is, a man who is going to cheat will say whatever it takes to get his quarry in bed.  Doesn't matter if it's vanilla or not. 
Also, in society, men are judged on being sucessful not just by the job they have and the money they make, but also by the women they marry. 
Don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying this is an excuse for cheating, just stating what is. 
Cordially,
mixny

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 10:22:23 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I would love to avoid them. Unfortunately, many people in their 20's and 30's are either already married or have this mentality. Most of the men (I say men in my case because I'm female and straight) I hear from who don't have this defect are old enough to be my father. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with older men, but it's nice to have someone closer to my age that I have more in common with. I think ideas from anyone who has successfully conquered this issue with a bdsm partner would benefit many.

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 10:26:11 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
I would love to avoid them. Unfortunately, many people in their 20's and 30's are either already married or have this mentality. Most of the men (I say men in my case because I'm female and straight) I hear from who don't have this defect are old enough to be my father. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with older men, but it's nice to have someone closer to my age that I have more in common with. I think ideas from anyone who has successfully conquered this issue with a bdsm partner would benefit many.

Again, I dunno.  Plenty of people your age are involved in Ds committed long term relationships and cheating isn't an issue at all. I'd say you either have bad luck in finding things, or you're attracting the wrong kind of person to you and need to examine yourself and your methods. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 10:47:46 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Since I left my abusive freeloader ex of 8 years, I've only met men who don't  non consentually abuse women and refuse to consider anyone for a potential partner who isn't employed and doesn't have his own transportation. I've always avoided married men, although I learned from experience that being divorced doesn't mean anything if the ex wife isn't re-married. She often comes back. Now I have added ex wife must be remarried to my list of requirements. So I take do take great care not to repeat my mistakes.

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 10:49:59 PM   
CrazyC


Posts: 949
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

LA,  you're right as usual. I'll rephrase the question. How does one overcome this obstacle with a man or woman who has bdsm needs but only dates vanilla?


If you want to date them, then make it clear you are wanting more then just bdsm. Other then that realize it will just be play and be ok with it. The ones you find that you have alot in common with in vanilla life = guys you will probably want to date and play with. And they are out there.

_____________________________

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 11:05:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Since I left my abusive freeloader ex of 8 years, I've only met men who don't  non consentually abuse women and refuse to consider anyone for a potential partner who isn't employed and doesn't have his own transportation. I've always avoided married men, although I learned from experience that being divorced doesn't mean anything if the ex wife isn't re-married. She often comes back. Now I have added ex wife must be remarried to my list of requirements. So I take do take great care not to repeat my mistakes.


Wow, I can honestly say I have never went out with someone that went back to their ex. I am not saying it could never happen to me,  I just have not heard about it happening all that often once the divorce is final. If they are going to leave you for anyone (including an exwife) well that is because there was a lack in the relationship. Then again, I have been with men that divorced their wives, their wives did not leave them.

I think that LA is right, you need to look at yourself and see what it is that you are attracting to you. There is something that you are doing that keeps these sorts popping back up in your life. Instead of rigidly making lists of traits (there is nothing wrong with making a list inherently, but it should concentrate more on what you want, and less on what you don't want), perhaps you should concentrate on the vibe that you get from the men that you surround yourself with. Are they crazy about you? If they are head over heels and you feel the same, well that is the biggest thing in my book.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 11:07:01 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Oh, I make it very clear upfront that I'm not looking for a friend with benefits. I also know that many men lie and promise relationships just to get in a woman's pants. For this reason, I refuse to have sex outside of a monogamous relationship. One would think that as picky as I am, I would never get screwed over. Still, despite my high standards, all turn out to be jerks. I know that many men are biologically engineered to spread their seed. But there has to be a way to convince them otherwise or there would be alot less monogamous couples in their 20's and 30's. For those who are involved in monogamous bdsm relationships, how did you get him to give up that mentality? How did you convince him that it was better to date you than a vanilla partner?

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 11:11:54 PM   
CrazyC


Posts: 949
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		they never had the mentality that bdsm was seperate from a monogamous relationship in the first place.

_____________________________

"You never lose by loving. You always lose by holding back." Barbara De Angelis

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 11:21:48 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

But there has to be a way to convince them otherwise or there would be alot less monogamous couples in their 20's and 30's. For those who are involved in monogamous bdsm relationships, how did you get him to give up that mentality? How did you convince him that it was better to date you than a vanilla partner?


All I can say is that we do a lot of vanilla stuff. I mean I am not that much different than a vanilla date in many regards. He can take me to an office party, or out to dinner. I do not understand this question. If someone wanted just to do BDSM with me, well I need an intellectual connection and an emotional one. I do not know how else to answer this question.

I think we teach people how to treat us. If I felt that he thought i was not good enough for vanilla outings I would not keep seeing him. Life is just too damn short hun. I do not have to convince anyone of anything, they are either on my wavelength or they are not. I cannot talk someone into being what I need, I cannot talk someone into being monogamous.

By the time men are 30 they are usually, not always, but usually ready to settle down in a relationship that will be long lasting (monogamous for most). Most men I have known will date, play with, and enjoy many women until they find one that knocks their socks off. When they find that they are easy to talk into being monogamous and "present" in the relationship. Just do not settle for less than that.

I saw you post about "The Rules" and you stated that a lot of people think it is manipulative and conniving. I thought some of it was, but most of what they had to say was right on. Take out the parts that feel dishonest and manipulative, live your life, and the one that truly wants you will chase you. If he is a dominant... he will chase you until he captures you.  Do not "play" hard to get, BE hard to get. And that does not mean having a chip on your shoulder, or being resentful. It is not about being sneaky, it is about self respect. Do not be sneaky, be happy with yourself and who you are... love you!

That's about it for my advice

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 11:32:04 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Since I left my abusive freeloader ex of 8 years, I've only met men who don't  non consentually abuse women and refuse to consider anyone for a potential partner who isn't employed and doesn't have his own transportation. I've always avoided married men, although I learned from experience that being divorced doesn't mean anything if the ex wife isn't re-married. She often comes back. Now I have added ex wife must be remarried to my list of requirements. So I take do take great care not to repeat my mistakes.


Wow, I can honestly say I have never went out with someone that went back to their ex. I am not saying it could never happen to me,  I just have not heard about it happening all that often once the divorce is final. If they are going to leave you for anyone (including an exwife) well that is because there was a lack in the relationship. Then again, I have been with men that divorced their wives, their wives did not leave them.

I think that LA is right, you need to look at yourself and see what it is that you are attracting to you. There is something that you are doing that keeps these sorts popping back up in your life. Instead of rigidly making lists of traits (there is nothing wrong with making a list inherently, but it should concentrate more on what you want, and less on what you don't want), perhaps you should concentrate on the vibe that you get from the men that you surround yourself with. Are they crazy about you? If they are head over heels and you feel the same, well that is the biggest thing in my book.


Actually, since leaving my ex boyfriend there were 2 different guys who took their ex wives back. One had been divorced for 2 years and the other for 5 years. In between, I played with a guy who refused to ever take me on a date. For some reason, I don't have vibes or female intuition when it comes to men, only other women. I can spot a psycho woman before anyone else can. Too bad I'm not a lesbian lol. Wish I knew what I'm doing wrong. I have vanilla friends that have no problem finding monogamous relationships, but those guys also don't have jobs and cars.. They have tried to set me up with the same type of guys they are with, but I refuse to settle for a freeloader.

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 11:38:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Actually, since leaving my ex boyfriend there were 2 different guys who took their ex wives back. One had been divorced for 2 years and the other for 5 years. In between, I played with a guy who refused to ever take me on a date. For some reason, I don't have vibes or female intuition when it comes to men, only other women. I can spot a psycho woman before anyone else can. Too bad I'm not a lesbian lol. Wish I knew what I'm doing wrong. I have vanilla friends that have no problem finding monogamous relationships, but those guys also don't have jobs and cars.. They have tried to set me up with the same type of guys they are with, but I refuse to settle for a freeloader.


Well a suggestion would be to find your own dates and then have your mother/sisters/friends meet them before you become heavily involved. If you do not trust your own intuition, perhaps theirs is better.

Also, meeting your friends and family is a good way to measure a person's intentions. If they do not want me to meet anyone they know or do not want to meet people I know... red flag! They should be wanting to get to know all of you, your family too. If they really want you in a relationship, they will want to see how you interact with other people. If they do not, that tells you something! Someone who has a passion for you is going to be really "into" you. I think there is a list online that can help you determine if he is "into you". Check that list...smiles.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 11:48:57 PM   
pixelslave


Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Since I left my abusive freeloader ex of 8 years, I've only met men who don't  non consentually abuse women and refuse to consider anyone for a potential partner who isn't employed and doesn't have his own transportation. I've always avoided married men, although I learned from experience that being divorced doesn't mean anything if the ex wife isn't re-married. She often comes back. Now I have added ex wife must be remarried to my list of requirements. So I take do take great care not to repeat my mistakes.



Ms defiantbadgirl,
Its good that you don't want to repeat your mistakes, but from your various posts such as the one above, it sounds as though you're making a different kind of mistake and that's not taking things on a case by case basis while looking at the overall man and the particulars of his situation.  Because you ARE in the lifestyle and that is most likely understood from the beginning, that in itself creates a potentially hazardous situation.
 
Ultimately, if you want to have a complete and total relationship, you need to get to know each other on more of a vanilla basis before you begin to play and add intimacy to the equation.  This is often difficult for both the woman and the man; requiring a fair amount of restraint (no pun intended) on both parties in order to make this happen.  If you want to know the man and you want him to know you as a woman, you've got to leave the sex and the bdsm out of the equation as you get to know each other.  In my experience, there's nothing wrong with flirting or talking of what you might like to do/share, but letting it go at that, which can certainly build up the desire for each other and open up avenues for communication that you'll need later on. 
 
It takes time to get to know each other and there is no substitute for quality time spent together that I know of.  If you rush things too fast, then who knows what you'll get?  You need time for each other to relax and to let their guard down and for each other to not always be on their best behavior.  That's the only way I know of that you'll be able to spot the geninely unsettled ones that aren't what they pretend!
 
I genuinely suggest, that you simply take your time and cool the play part down (I don't know if its been a part of the equation in the past).  I can certainly tell you this, regardless of whether you're a Domme or a sub, men always like a challenge!  Make them wait for what they want and you'll have them wrapped around your little finger.  Just make certain that the one who is wrapped, also shares your other interests that YOU have, and that you've not taken on all of his in order to get what you want from him, although IMO, some room for compromise is always appropriate.  
 
 - pixel

_____________________________

Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/12/2007 11:51:17 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks everyone for the great advice. When a man does treat me badly, I don't just sit there and take it without complaint. When I was seeing the guy who refused to date me and stood me up on my birthday and Valentine's Day, I jumped his case over it. He did apologize, but accused me of always starting arguements. Maybe the advice in that book (The Rules) of refusing to speak to them for 2 weeks works better than griping them out. There's only one reason I haven't followed it thus far. How does the ignoring work if the man isn't told specifically beforehand why he is being ignored? For that reason, I'm unsure how effective that will be in the future with guys, but I'm sure going to try it. I probably should've taken my time more with the guy who never took me on a date, even though there was never any sex involved. In fact, I refuse to have sex outside of a monogamous relationship. I do have to disagree that making a man wait for sex makes him want to persue a challenge. At one time this worked, but now most guys go by the 1-2 meet rule when it comes to sex. If he has to wait longer she is "leading him on". Of course I still refuse to do it, but my morals seem to be a turn-off rather than a turn-on. How does a woman become a challenge with this 1-2 date rule men have? Should she go ahead and sleep with them and then make sure she leaves in the middle of the night so they wake up alone? Would this be viewed as a challenge?

< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 1/13/2007 12:01:38 AM >

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/13/2007 12:44:41 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		The spirit of the rules is basically this, respect yourself, do not be totally available to someone that has not invested in you emotionally. They give people that have no idea how to do that a guide to how to behave. I do not follow their rules, but when looking this is what I did

I talk to many men and date men that are respectful to me.

I do not promise to be exclusive to someone that is not going to be exclusive with me sexually speaking

I am not available all the time when first speaking with someone until I know they really care for me

I love me, and I know I am lovable...

I KNOW that is one man is not interested, others will be



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: men, dating, and bdsm - 1/13/2007 12:56:28 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
I've always avoided married men, although I learned from experience that being divorced doesn't mean anything if the ex wife isn't re-married. She often comes back. Now I have added ex wife must be remarried to my list of requirements. So I take do take great care not to repeat my mistakes.
How is holding some man responsible for whether or not his ex is remarried a good thing?   I'm in support of your cause that lying and cheating are common withing wiitwd, and that a lot of people are conflicted about what they want/need, and what they feel they can live with and be accepted socially, but this post of yours made no sense, and isn't going to help your cause in any way.

You have to be strong enough to give each person a fair chance if you hope to establish a relationship barring unacceptable behaviors to you.   I could care less what anyone's ex is doing, as long as he is unmarried.   I do my best to stay away from people who are somehow attached to vanilla girlfriends, but that I haven't been as successful at screening for and avoiding.     M

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