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D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 8:21:13 AM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I am pretty sure I have seen variations of the theme I am about to discuss posted before, but because of the other threads floating around I thought it might be timely to talk about again... and that is romance and D/s relationships.

From my readings before, some people cannot handle the idea of romance in their relationship dynamic, some cannot fathom a dynamic without this. I think this is great that some want romance and others do not, I think that there are as many flavors of power exchange as there are of different kinks... all that matters is those that who are doing it are happy in my opinion.

There were a few dominants that have voiced this distaste of submissives that want to go on real dates, have attention paid to them, before they bottom... as if they have no right to want what they want in the context of power exchange. It started to remind me of situations in the vanilla world to be honest. Men are more than happy to find willing partners to "play" with, but "playing" is different than taking a gal home to meet momma and planning a wedding. It is all well and good that some want to play only in the context of BDSM by me, but it sounds as though there is some resentment of women that do not just wanna "play". It reminds me of that old joke How do you tell the difference between a slut and a bitch? Well, a slut will screw anyone, a bitch will screw anyone but you.

I am not really referencing SimplyMichael by the way, because he was making an entirely different point on his thread, but I am asking a few questions that sprang to mind in reading both his and defiantbadgirl's threads.

For submissives and dominants, do you think that the expectation of romance is silly in the context of forming Ds relationships complete with courtship or "dating"? Is finding people to date an unrealistic expectation for those wanting to engage in the lifestyle?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Post #: 1

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 8:31:38 AM

asassylilslave

Posts: 93
Status: offline

quote:

For submissives and dominants, do you think that the expectation of romance is silly in the context of forming Ds relationships complete with courtship or "dating"? Is finding people to date an unrealistic expectation for those wanting to engage in the lifestyle?

For myself; I could care less about romance per se ( IE, taken out to dinner, flowers, candles, holding hands etc ) and I do not see meeting a perspective partner as a date. I see it more as a way to see if the dynamic is there period. If it is not, then fine, let's turn it into a date; if it is, then things will progress from there the way they should.

I know that for some, romance and love go hand in hand with their relationships; for myself, it is not a prerequisite nor is it expected.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 2

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 8:36:00 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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For me I find romance in the most unexpected ways. It is never about the grand gestures for me, although those are nice also. The most romantic thing anyone ever did for me was when my exhusband took me back where we got married in Monterey, I was very pregnant. I longed to get sun on my back and lay on my tummy. It has been a long time since I had laid on my tummy. He dug a hole in the sand for my belly to fit into so I could do as I desired. That is still the most romantic gesture anyone has ever made to me. Weird huh?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to asassylilslave)

Post #: 3

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 8:42:10 AM

asassylilslave

Posts: 93
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Actually, no, not all that weird

I think that many see romance in a different light; for me when I hear the word, I see candles and roses. I do however look at what you said as more of consideration move than I would romance

My last partner knew how much I was interested in wolves so for my birthday he took me to a preservation to meet them ~ grins ~ not very romantic, but very considerate.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 4

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 8:43:51 AM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline

I've been going 'round and 'round about this in my head for a while wondering if I'm really up tight or something. I've never 'dated' in the regular sense and have never been especially romantic or with romantic partners. This doesn't have much to do with my interest in bd/sm except for the fact that in my early explorations it became clear that I wouldn't have to date and mainstream romance is optional. Its part of the attraction of it all.

I guess in a way, all this stuff already fits my internal definition of 'romance' which is kind of dark and twisted to begin with, sharing a lot with the literary defition of 'romantic' more than the more sentimental notions common in popular culture. Personally, I don't really see the need to dress it all up with a lot a hearts and flowers and trips to the movies. I wouldn't mind going to the movies, but its not all that high on my list of priorities and I've yet to be in a situation where I'd prefer doing that to something really twisted.

I dunno.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 5

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 8:45:45 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
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My answer to this actually covers a lot more area than Ds. I feel that the picture of romantic love we are painting in our society is inherently flawed in that it most often creates a situation of negative attachment, unattainable ideals and unhealthy self-denial. Given this, I don't feel that "romantic love" as we know it is good for most relationships, Ds or not. The kind of love that we need is the kind that doesn't possess, that doesn't cause us to give up everything for the other to the detrement of ourselves nor does it set ourselves and the relationship up for failure by holding up standards we can never attain. We need to be in romantic love relationships because we love them, not because they love us.

So, yes, I believe that there is room for romance and romantic love in a Ds or Ms relationship, but that statement is qualified by my belief that what most people see as romantic love is off base.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 6

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 8:53:18 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

For submissives and dominants, do you think that the expectation of romance is silly in the context of forming Ds relationships complete with courtship or "dating"? Is finding people to date an unrealistic expectation for those wanting to engage in the lifestyle?

I don't do the romance thing in the beginning because I'm not looking to add any vanilla relationship -- I get straight to the training and trying out the Ds dynamics.

However when thing get beyond the training, I can say that every slave I've owned I have been romantic with in some sense. It goes both ways. If someone becomes my slave we have a lot in common and we have the common goal of making this our relationship dynamic. I think it is only natural then for me to develop romantic feelings of some type. Not the same as sexual attraction but a deep affection.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 7

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 9:03:47 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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Joined: 2/5/2004
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"What does love have to do with this slave girl"IS my away message on yahoo.romance or love is the question YOU can have one without the other,,,my heart can only belong to one...So therefore I can only love that one.Yet within our bdsm relationships and our owned ones we can offer caring .compassion I guess this is a form of love,,,WILLIAM

_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 8

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 9:22:15 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
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From: All over now in Minnesota
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This is a great thread and I loved how juliaoceania started it off.

I do not think romance in the stereotyped sense is much different or separated in vanilla and this life but just how people perceive, want and expect things of this nature. I do think because this life people and for this are mostly dominants get to feel free enough to behave the way they want and feel natural about and should not have to worry about what is a standard thing to do. So if the dominant is not a give flowers, take out their girl to a romantic dinner type person then they do not have to do that.

Personally I do like romance in my life but I just try not to expect it in the standard commercial ways. I like get taken to dinner but try never to expect it or think that is a must have. I like getting flowers at random times but take that as a bonus and not that my Master should do that. For me romance in the relationship does not have to be dates or any of the standard or big things but the natural and small ones in the relationship. It is the spontaneous kiss, my Master doing something that he knows I like without me hinting about it, extra cuddle time and just the normal things that happen that show how much he cares for me is what I find is important to me.

I want my potential Master or Master to be himself at all times. I want to care for and serve that person and not a person trying to live up to some society image or standard. If this is giant romantic gestures, that is great. If it is very little or no gestures that works fine as well, it is important though that it is him. Do I need a Master who has some romance in him, probably yes; I just try to look in the non stereotyped ways for it.

The last time I went to see my Master he had already cleaned his house spotless which is something I normally do for him. He told me he wanted me to have some extra time to explore the city on my own while he was at work. I thought this was incredibly romantic gesture by him.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 9

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 9:41:06 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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toservez, I completely concur about where one find romance will differ, and it is not necessarily by getting Valentines in the mailbox! There are a few ways that your post resonated with me.

I agree with this sentiment

quote:

So if the dominant is not a give flowers, take out their girl to a romantic dinner type person then they do not have to do that.

Many submissives/slaves would not want to be treated out to any romantic excursions, so these sorts of dominants have plenty to fulfill their needs out there. I guess it becomes sad when there is a submissive that feels the need for these things, but it denied them, and when they allow someone to take from them without without filling their needs they allow themselves to feel used. Such doms and submissives should perhaps take this into consideration when negotiating?

quote:

It is the spontaneous kiss, my Master doing something that he knows I like without me hinting about it, extra cuddle time and just the normal things that happen that show how much he cares for me is what I find is important to me.

Absolutely the way that I view it! I love when I am considered and thought of, it makes me feel valued. That is not something one can feel if they demand these things from another in my opinion.

quote:

I want my potential Master or Master to be himself at all times.

That is one of the gifts I find a good relationship gives the people involved, the ability to be themselves.

quote:

The last time I went to see my Master he had already cleaned his house spotless which is something I normally do for him. He told me he wanted me to have some extra time to explore the city on my own while he was at work. I thought this was incredibly romantic gesture by him.

It was a very romantic gesture in my book too, wanting you to have the time to do something that would be enjoyable for you.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 10

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 9:55:20 AM

mymasterssub69

Posts: 566
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

interesting forum post and something i will certainly think about - courstship and dating - since i'm at the beginning stages of a D/s romance with another collarme member ...with Daddy's consent.

_____________________________

there is something infinitely magical
about a Daddy Dom
...something only a little girl
can understand.

collared on 16th Jan 2007 by bigsambaman, my Daddy

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 11

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 10:02:30 AM

KatyLied

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Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

I am not the flowers & candy girl, I never have been. I find romance in the small things, the personal things. I had an afternoon planned with a (kinky) boyfriend. We were specific in what we'd be doing, where we'd be going. When I got to his place he told me that he decided to let me decide....go with our plans OR hang out at his place for the entire afternoon "and let nature take it's course." It was one of the best afternoons of my life. He dug out some old photo albums and momentos and shared them with me. It was great. I learned a lot about him that afternoon. I felt like he gave me some huge chunks of his past.

edited because I can't type

< Message edited by KatyLied -- 1/16/2007 10:45:24 AM >

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to mymasterssub69)

Post #: 12

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 10:27:15 AM

SusanofO

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I appreciate romance a lot - but - I equate it generally with thoughtfulness in a very personal context, if I am attracted to someone, so it can be anything from them having an especially gentle and thoughtful manner if I am going through a rough time, and showing concern for me, in a letter someone might write to me, for instance, or a phone conversation they may have with me - as much as it could be about the cards, flowers and nice dinners bit.

I love those kinds of things, of course, but "being romantic" for me, doesn't have to necessarily cost much money - to me it's more about care and concern for me, showing that the other person is "tuned in" to my emotions. And I know I try to reciprocate in that regard, as well.

P.S. - Someone can do a lot as far as being romantic goes, I think, with the tone of their voice (gentle and intense at the same time) as much as by what they actually say - to convey caring, I think. And as far as "in-person" interaction would ever be concerned, I think one can really make a mood with candles (I love candles!), and soft music - and a gentle tenderness (before all of the bdsm, activity, or even during that, maybe).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 1/16/2007 10:42:32 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 13

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 10:53:32 AM

drawntothedark

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Joined: 10/19/2006
From: Arkansas
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This is a very fast reply.

I have had two D/s relationships to gain my percepective from. They are both completely diffrent. My first was not interested in romance at all. It seemed that as for me at that learning stage, it was what I needed at the time. I never missed things like Valentines Day or cuddling. He would take me out, but, I was never free to just be "me". I was always being played with or tested or such.

My Dom now is very romantic, in the sense that he adores cuddling and such. He seems more softer than my last and at this stage of my life, I'm learning and appreciating the romance of D/s (if you will). Now he is not the type (I don't think) to wisk me away to some rose petal bedroom and make sweet long love to me. And thank goodness.

For me, I think I would like a little bit of both. Stern, sadistic, and romantic. Roses do nothing for me and wine only gets me drunk. I would rather be over his lap than looking longily at him over a table at a French resturant while violens played. Even when I was nilla I really didn't have much pateince for the moonstruck men who wanted to whoo me with pretty words and flowers.

On the same hand after a long session or a hard day, it is heaven to have somone to cuddle with.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 14

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 11:25:20 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

For submissives and dominants, do you think that the expectation of romance is silly in the context of forming Ds relationships complete with courtship or "dating"? Is finding people to date an unrealistic expectation for those wanting to engage in the lifestyle?

Absolutely not.

Even in my prior relationship in which love was NOT the basis for our relationship, we still went on "dates"- we still took time to takl and get to know eachother.

I always get amused when doms get pissy about subs actually using their power of consent to REJECT doms. Consent doesn't mean very much if you can't say no freely, and if you want a slave who is completely indiscriminating and will just say yes to the first person they fall on, then go find yourself one and stop getting annoyed at the ones who actually want to make the right choice for themselves.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 15

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 11:33:28 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

I always get amused when doms get pissy about subs actually using their power of consent to REJECT doms.

Yes I find this amusing too, consent does not mean much unless us "s" types have the freedom to say, "Ya know, this just does not feel right, I kinda enjoy a night on the town before I decide to let you beat me silly." We do have the right to decide a certain arrangement is not going to make us happy. If that is not what someone else wants to do for us, well I am sure since there is such an over abundance of "s" types compared to "d" type people, they will find someone that is more aligned with their expectations.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/16/2007 11:34:35 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 16

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 11:51:17 AM

slavemaia

Posts: 395
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

For submissives and dominants, do you think that the expectation of romance is silly in the context of forming Ds relationships complete with courtship or "dating"? Is finding people to date an unrealistic expectation for those wanting to engage in the lifestyle?

i think it all depends on what you call romantic. Master and i were talking about this a few weekends ago because there's this concept that flowers, going out to dinner, gifts etc. - that's romance; at least that's been my take on it. So i said to Him that i was afraid the romance in O/our relationship was dying. And He said the most wonderful thing. He said the time W/we spend talking on the phone, laying in bed together in the morning, having meals together, even at home, cuddling and watching a movie together, in other words any time spent with and or focused on the other is romance. i LOVED that explanation and have realized there's an abundance of "romance" in O/our relationship and it only enhances the M/s dynamic.

_____________________________

She reaches up, not for the apple, but for what causes it to be there.
slave to love - - Chairman's maia

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 17

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 12:02:46 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I always get amused when doms get pissy about subs actually using their power of consent to REJECT doms. Consent doesn't mean very much if you can't say no freely, and if you want a slave who is completely indiscriminating and will just say yes to the first person they fall on, then go find yourself one and stop getting annoyed at the ones who actually want to make the right choice for themselves.

Consent is the reason I can't take D/s seriously, it just reminds me it is all fantasy. I remember a woman who asked me if I could dominate her and then told me what she would consent to. After scratching my head, I said no thanks, that means I'm on the lead and not her. I did say I would give her a good thrashing if that is what she wanted but not pretend I was in charge when I wasn't.

As for romance. As far as I'm concerned it just takes up too much time and effort for very little reward. I think I'd rather sit down with a woman an discuss particle physics than tell her a load of stuff to build up her ego so I can roger her.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 18

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 12:13:52 PM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I always get amused when doms get pissy about subs actually using their power of consent to REJECT doms. Consent doesn't mean very much if you can't say no freely, and if you want a slave who is completely indiscriminating and will just say yes to the first person they fall on, then go find yourself one and stop getting annoyed at the ones who actually want to make the right choice for themselves.

I always have found this hilarious. Dominants have standards, preferences and I am sure like to be considered complex human beings but some of them think being submissive means a zombie brain and serving anyone is all their is, of course also while never being a doormat.

If all of us were just about serving and pleasing anybody, none of us would ever be on the market. The logic is amazing.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 19

RE: D/s And Romance - 1/16/2007 12:30:29 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

Master likes to be romantic, I think the most romantic thing he has done was when I was in hospital. He brought in a pillow with one of his shirts as a pillow case for me to cuddle so I wouldn't miss him

We never dated exactly...but when he first came, he would do romantic things like leave a note and a flower on my pillow etc....At the time I didn't see it as necessary..but in his infinite wisdom he was laying the groundwork for me to feel loved and so set the process in motion for an enduring relationship.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 20

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