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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 6:04:14 AM

MaryT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Ever try to make a cake with only the ingredients you like? It's not the same cake.

I didn't even know there was a recipe.

MaryT

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 6:26:26 AM

adaddysgirl

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They say that at the very least, the only choice a slave will make is who she (he) picks as a Master. Why? Because that is the process of deciding if a partner would be compatible to your needs. Once that is established, then she goes on to submit to him in many ways.

If you have no limits to begin with, then you might as well just put an ad on that says 'first come, first serve because i have no limits and i am only here to please, in any way, the one who will take me.' But that's not usually how it works.

An example might be that a sub does not wish to serve as a toilet slave. Wouldn't it be better to find a partner right at the beginning who does not expect this? Or are you really saying that you just jump in there to please and if the dom says you are to be a toilet slave, then so be it because you are only there to please him/her?

You are young and 'new to the scene' (as per your profile). After some experience....or perhaps 20 years down the road....you may find that you do indeed have some limits that you need respected in a relationship. True enough, you may end up with no limits as a few others i have seen on here, but that does not seem to be the majority of cases....even if they are agreed upon limits, they are nonetheless limits.

So just doing what someone says because you want to please him/her does not mean you yourself may never find some limits in that as well.

Best wishes in your search,
Daddysgirl

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 6:41:47 AM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaryT

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Ever try to make a cake with only the ingredients you like? It's not the same cake.

I didn't even know there was a recipe.

MaryT

There is always an origin. There is aways a reason. I found it disturbing, that on this forum, are people that even doubted that there was ever an "old guard".

But as in everything, if things are too difficult, lower the standards so everyone gets a trophy (<---an analogy).

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 1/22/2007 6:49:08 AM >

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 7:04:48 AM

ShiftedJewel

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quote:

There is always an origin. There is aways a reason. I found it disturbing, that on this forum, are people that even doubted that there was ever an "old guard".

But as in everything, if things are too difficult, lower the standards so everyone gets a trophy (<---an analogy).

But that's true in sooo many things now days, isn't it? Why strive to be the very best at much of anything... it's not like it matters anymore. I completely agree with you LotusSong.

Jewel

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 7:27:11 AM

darksdesire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaryT

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Ever try to make a cake with only the ingredients you like? It's not the same cake.

I didn't even know there was a recipe.

MaryT

There is always an origin. There is aways a reason. I found it disturbing, that on this forum, are people that even doubted that there was ever an "old guard".

But as in everything, if things are too difficult, lower the standards so everyone gets a trophy (<---an analogy).

That seems like a bit of an elitist position. What does that mean, lower the standards. Are there BDSM standards that everyone must adhere to in order to belong to the club? I take my commitment as a slave very seriously, but according to whose standards? Well, my Master's standards. The general BDSM culture, like everything, evolves and changes over time. It is influenced by so many factors, and it is impossible to keep it static.

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 7:28:09 AM

toservez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

They say that at the very least, the only choice a slave will make is who she (he) picks as a Master. Why? Because that is the process of deciding if a partner would be compatible to your needs. Once that is established, then she goes on to submit to him in many ways.

If you have no limits to begin with, then you might as well just put an ad on that says 'first come, first serve because i have no limits and i am only here to please, in any way, the one who will take me.' But that's not usually how it works.

I echo this. It sounds so simple that a slave serves end of story. Life is a little more complicated then that.

I doubt there is much difference by amount of people that the OP is describing. With communication opening up like message boards like this and with out getting in a debate about who is what, there are people open in the life not looking to be at the level OP describes then it may look like what happen to the good old days.

Personally I find it somewhat simple that slaves cannot have strong opinions or ideas but at the same time no owner wants a doormat and wants a slave to intellectually stimulate them. It is the essence of contradictory statements. On a personal note, although I would bet most slaves would agree, I would not want how I write or talk to people in real time be the basis of judgment toward my slave attitude and dedication. My Master gets that side of me all to himself. We chose each other. He was not walking around all Master like before and I was not walking around all slave like either.

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 7:31:57 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

But as in everything, if things are too difficult, lower the standards so everyone gets a trophy (<---an analogy).

I do not excel for a "trophy", so I really do not care what everyone else gets, it really has no impact on my reality... shrugs. I suppose it is about external acceptance to other people's standards, and whether that has any meaning to you I suppose.

I tend to want to do the best I can because I am competing with my own personal best, you know what, it makes me happy, and that is what it is all about in my opinion...

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 7:43:54 AM

thaimeeuppppp

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I think that is probably it. When andhow did that happen?
Is everything doomed to be diluted and turned mainstream?
Warm fuzzy BDSM seems such an oxymoron
Thank you

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 7:55:59 AM

MaryT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

There is always an origin. There is aways a reason. I found it disturbing, that on this forum, are people that even doubted that there was ever an "old guard".

You must realize that if you are using "old guard" as the standard, you are not qualified to be part of BDSM.

quote:

But as in everything, if things are too difficult, lower the standards so everyone gets a trophy (<---an analogy).

I would be interested in seeing an authoritative list of the standards.

I'm not signed up to compete anyway, and if everyone gets a trophy, good for them. It's no skin off my nose.

MaryT

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 8:25:23 AM

spankmepink11

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I think worrying about who's the Dom/sub'liest of them all , and the need for external sources of validation are the reasons people seem to concern themselves so much with how others view their personal orientation/dynamic.

Whether someone is "Old Guard" "high protocol" gorean....whatever, none of this has any effect on the dynamic i seek, let alone any future relationship, nor will my own views on BDSM relationships affect how others live their dynamic.

Things do evolve as well as people, and BDSM has become a much broader entity than it once might have been.
But so what?
Is that a bad thing?
Does the way i choose to express my kink or orientation have any effect whatsoever on how any of you live/express your own? Of course not.

So...lets pass out the participation trophies...all do our personal best, and not worry about whose best is best .

P.S. to Lotus , some of the yummiest dishes can emerge from fiddling a little with the ingredients.

< Message edited by spankmepink11 -- 1/22/2007 8:27:49 AM >

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 8:28:27 AM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaryT

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

There is always an origin. There is aways a reason. I found it disturbing, that on this forum, are people that even doubted that there was ever an "old guard".

You must realize that if you are using "old guard" as the standard, you are not qualified to be part of BDSM.

quote:

But as in everything, if things are too difficult, lower the standards so everyone gets a trophy (<---an analogy).

I would be interested in seeing an authoritative list of the standards.

I'm not signed up to compete anyway, and if everyone gets a trophy, good for them. It's no skin off my nose.

MaryT

Ever been to a national leather conference? They have competitions.

And I withdrew from the BDSM crowd a looong time ago.

There is no list.. and if there was one, it'd be disputed as myth. Someday, if you truly are lucky, you'll find an actual Leatherman willing to enlighten you. There might even be one on here.

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 8:32:48 AM

Kondolinni

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Speaking to the stated point of this thread, I believe that everything about Amarican culture (which is primarily what we are dealing with here, no offense to our international members) becomes modernized. So to, the general form and function of BDSM as a sub-cultural phenomenon in American society. It is not so much that BDSM is watered down, as it has evolved to accomodate the shifting, fluid needs of practioners in contemporary society.

Chief among the aspects of modern BDSM that make it culturally specific is that is accomodates all views. Moreover, it acknowledges that there are an ever increasing number of views. As the number grows, the definition of D/s, M/s, SM and BDSM continuously expands to accomodate all flavors and points of view. As our society becomes increasingly complex, and as more and more information is shared by like minded poeple, that this should differentiate modern BDSM from a more primitive form should come as no surprise.

That our ancestors of as recently as only a few hundred years ago required only a handful of interpretations of what a D/s or M/s relationship might entail for the participants (Ie; Victorian era male/female relationships in both Europe and America), we here now require many many more.

I am not offering an opinion here on which is the better model. I am merely making a comparison and a suggestion. The fact is, if you prefer an earlier, or a simpler model, you are certainly free to surscribe to and practice it.

All you need is a partner.

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 8:50:32 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thaimeeuppppp

or of its just a little different because most people on here are essentially heterosexual. My personal view of submission means when i find a Master I do what he says. If its unconfortable I deal with it, becuase my life is devoted to pleasing him. I have been reading many of these posts and it seems like many people are really more searching for very secure committed relationships where they have a few kinks in common. Many of the subs seem opinionated and bossy. As a sub the idea for me is I do not have a list of demands, I am he of who demands are made. Perhaps because altho I am Bi most of my experience is with men. Women have always been the sneakier sex, so while they say they sub there is more of a need to be taken care of than anything.

[Mod Note: font reduced]

I'm not sure what your point of reference might be. Watered down from what? You're twenty-eight, so that rather limits your exposure to (what you consider) "unwatered down" BDSM. Do you mean online or real time? Historical, gender exclusive pre-BDSM (a modern day construct that some might consider "watered down", yet you seem comfortable in its use)? Shared military experience, gay Leatherman, S/M oriented, motorcycle club?

What personal experience are you using as your baseline? If you'd like to add some context, I'd be pleased to offer an opinion.

John

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 9:04:10 AM

SimplyMichael

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thaimeeuppppp,

On your knees slut and send me the pin # to your bank account!

Or are you one of those uppity opinionated submissives that are opinionated and bossy and won't just obey?

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 9:08:18 AM

Missokyst

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It just sounds to me like you want to point out how superior you feel you are to other, more watered down subs.
Very attractive.
Kyst

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 9:09:36 AM

mbes

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If I am riding a bike for my own pleasure and enjoyment, then it matters only to me how fast I go, how far I ride, and how many times I fall off the damn bike.
If I am riding a bike in hopes of getting a trophy, then I'd best be better, faster, more skilled than the other bike riders.
The same is true for every other endeavor in life. Who are you doing it for? If it's for the world to see and judge, you'd best be better, more skilled than the other participants. If it is only for you and yours, then those are the only standards that matter.

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 9:15:27 AM

SlaveAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

I am wondering why SlaveAkasha got so upset...Sunnydays did preface her statement with (IMHO) which is meant to let readers know that it is HER opinion and not meant for everyone to follow....

Hmmm... I don't feel upset, but let me check... Nope, all good.

I have no problem with it being her opinion, not one bit. I gave mine in response (maybe I should start putting a disclaimer like twicehappy).

I just think it's wrong to send to new people the message that NO slave ever gives opinions or they have to act a certain way or they aren't real enough for the bdsm crowd. I talk to new subs/slaves all the time and some of the demands that Doms make of them is insane. If someone is a slave, they are.. if they aren't..they aren't. It doesn't mean they can't give their thoughts or expect to keep the standards they have set for themselves as a way to live their lives. After all, it's still their life and their choice until they give that over to someone else... after that, it's still their choice to stay with that person or walk away. Giving the impression that a slave must always be quiet and do what anyone tells them can be a very dangerous thing to do. They must know they have every right that everyone else has until they give those rights over to someone else..and it doesn't make them one bit less slave than the one who is chained naked to a wall with her mouth sewn shut.

Kasha

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 9:18:34 AM

SimplyMichael

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If you are worried about who gets what trophy and what they did to earn it, you have your head screwed on wrong.

That makes your focus external, not internal, and even worse, outside of your relationship.

As for "old guard" they most certainly existed. Horny butt pirates who fucked anyone over for the first hot young stud who walked in and arranged a system where the old men got to use all the new young meat as bottoms and over the years has gotten glorified into some "high standard" I say the above as someone who LOVES playing with gay men and women but come on people, these are the same people who invented glory holes and bath houses...Try reading things like the Leatherman's handbook or other contemporary writing and the myth of the glorious "old guard" will fade away to reveal a rich but a bit less shiny reality.

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 9:34:27 AM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

If you are worried about who gets what trophy and what they did to earn it, you have your head screwed on wrong.

That makes your focus external, not internal, and even worse, outside of your relationship.

As for "old guard" they most certainly existed. Horny butt pirates who fucked anyone over for the first hot young stud who walked in and arranged a system where the old men got to use all the new young meat as bottoms and over the years has gotten glorified into some "high standard" I say the above as someone who LOVES playing with gay men and women but come on people, these are the same people who invented glory holes and bath houses...Try reading things like the Leatherman's handbook or other contemporary writing and the myth of the glorious "old guard" will fade away to reveal a rich but a bit less shiny reality.

This whole thread reminded me of this..hense the"trophy" reference:

"Dee-dee-dee!"-----> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5ss-5zcGM

There are crawling competitions.. and M/s competitions.. talk about ego run amok~! LOL

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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/22/2007 9:40:18 AM

TheInfiniteAbyss

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I'm not pointing to anyone particular who has posted here, this is more of a general comment. I think it's sad that in this "alternative lifestyle" so many feel the need to bicker and babble over "the rules" of how we're all supposed to operate within the lifestyle. Should I have a sub/slave and she and I agree her title and the responsibility that come with them, then I don't understand why anyone should have a problem with that. If I choose to give my "slave" certain rights and freedoms that in someone else's book would make her my "submissive" that's fine----for you.

I think there are too many who ride on high horses in this lifestyle. There are too many who wish that our lifestlye could be accepted by those in the vanilla world, but who cannot accept those within the lifestlye who do not conform to their particular thoughts and ideas. It's hypocracy and it's sad. You'd think that everyone in this life could at least share the feeling of not being accepted for what we are, as we are, and therefore be sensitive to ostracizing those who share this lifestlye in a way that doesn't match perfectly with their own.

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