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RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 9:33:42 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear SirDominic, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I will have to agree with you, that some individuals who are WWII veterans and Korean War Veterans would not be pleased by the hearsay that all the Old Guard Leathermen are dead.  True, the majority are dead but, just because these individuals don't write or parade about; that doesn't mean that the Old Guard Leathermen are totally dead and gone.  Not all Gay men got AIDS or other STDs.
Although the World War II Veterans are rapidly dying away--there are still a few of them around.  Those who served during World War II; are in their late 70's to 90's.  My relatives who fought in World War II were in their 50's and 60's when it was 1970.
 
That said, in my mind's eyes I see-- that those who wish to live by a more disciplined and or defined way of life; regardless if inspired by the writings of individuals who identify in their mind's eyes what Old Guard was/is--each person cannot envelope the entire era and define it as an absolute.  Authors can only envelope what is within their reach and or their experiences, when given the opportunity.  At best, the current community at large, can only deal with generalizations, even as archives are being assembled by the Leather Archives and Museum.  Much of the community does not document their lives as they are too busy living it.  That does not mean for those who come after their time has passed; that others didn't exist because they didn't document their lives; justify their lives to those self proclaimed 'vigilantes' and those who crave the attention and self proclaimed experts. 
 
The more Leather Archives collects tangible evidence, through old books, magazines, photographs, newspaper articles, personal journals, old films and the like; it will be evidence that there are different flavors, styles and applications during the "Old Guard" era.  East, West, North and South; each had similar protocols and some had differences.
 
What is important is to focus on what is ahead of us and not always look to the past.  The fact life in general is progressive, is evidence that though the wheel was invented centuries past, there are those who will seek to improve upon it and or customize it to make the most of it in their personal lives.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 
 
 
 

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 9:38:19 AM   
MaryT


Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamscape

Sorry Mary T, but I really do not think you are qualified to tell anyone that they can or can not belong. 


<rant on> I quickly tire of debating people online who lack the ability or willingness to exercise critical reading skills.  I also find it disheartening that state colleges are now required to offer a critical thinking course in college because somehow people manage to graduate high school without that most basic of skills! <rant off>

Perhaps if you provided an exact quote of mine, and you read it carefully, you would see your mistake.

MaryT

(in reply to dreamscape)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 9:45:24 AM   
MaryT


Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic
Mary T said: "Don't you see the connection here? "
Yeah I do see the connection, I thought that is what I was saying.


What I saw was a diss of "very demanding" submissives - the root of all evil and BDSM watering down - who have too many standards (which itself is rather humorous given the overall topic) in the face of an onslaught of self-procolaimed doms.  I wasn't seeing you seeing that.

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 9:56:19 AM   
MaryT


Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic
SimplyMichael, the old guard died out in the 1970's????? Gee, I'd better let my old guard friends know they don't really exist.


I know a guy who loves civil war reenactment, but he doesn't actually believe that he is a soldier in a war that ended a century and half ago.  I love the Harlem Renaissance and love mimicking some of the styles, but it would ridiculous of me to claim that I participate in the Harlem Renaissance.

MaryT

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 10:01:37 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

What is important is to focus on what is ahead of us and not always look to the past.


LadyHugs, I would only disagree with this statement. A focus on what is ahead is crippled if one is not constantly aware of the past. "Those not aware of the past are doomed to repeat it"; surely you know the quote.

I would also disagree that what is important is to focus on what is ahead. For me personally, it has always been the most important to focus on the moment. This moment, here and now, is the only reality there is.

And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.....

Namaste, Sir Dominic

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 10:01:54 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

JACK: How would you respond to the criticism that The Leatherman's Handbook ruined the leather scene?


They were whining in 1971...I bet there were gay men bitching in 1946 about how the scene just wasn't the same!

(in reply to valeca)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 10:30:47 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		MaryT,
"What I saw was a diss of "very demanding" submissives - the root of all evil and BDSM watering down - who have too many standards (which itself is rather humorous given the overall topic) in the face of an onslaught of self-procolaimed doms. I wasn't seeing you seeing that. "

Mary, maybe I need some more caffeine, but I am not at all clear on what you are trying to tell me. I think you are taking me to task for dissing on demanding submissives, but not doing the same about excessively demanding Doms. If that is the intent of your comment, then I have to agree, you are correct.

Your Civil War re-enactment analogy does have me mystified. There are people who have continued on with the tradition of the Old Guard school to this day. Is it exactly same thing it was in the '70's or earlier, of course not. But it is an unbroken line of teaching from one generation to the next; they are the current guardians of the Old Guard way of life. Why is it that some people have such a hard time believing this?????

Namaste, Sir Dominic

(in reply to MaryT)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 10:41:34 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Well if it had not been "watered down" then we'd not have SSC or RACK and most of us would not bewhere we are today in this BDSM thing. Since If you go way back you would find a rule against discussing "IT" with outsiders. The way most of us found the "lifestyle" was through a manner that was prohibited under the general rules of "Old Guard". The system was increadably exclusive and unwelcomming to newcommers. There is plenty to love about Old Guard and their traditions and teachings but at the same time there was plenty of bad in the "good old days" as well.



(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 10:50:55 AM   
valeca


Posts: 403
Joined: 1/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

JACK: How would you respond to the criticism that The Leatherman's Handbook ruined the leather scene?


They were whining in 1971...I bet there were gay men bitching in 1946 about how the scene just wasn't the same!


Yay!  Someone got it--the reason I gave the link!

(posted all in good fun)

(


_____________________________

~valeca, Owned and Operated by Loraith.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 11:11:39 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		SirDominic, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I remember the quote, "Those not aware of the past are doomed to repeat it."  But, awareness is just that. 
 
The question still remains--what can be learned from the past, as not to repeat it.  Unfortunately, some don't learn lessons of the past as they put a new spin on things.  We see this in politics in and out of the scene.
 
I can agree focus should be on the present as well as the future.
 
I see in my mind's eyes that a person who lives in the moment is static.  Standing still per se.  Those who have goals or look ahead are those who step forward one foot at a time and walk the journey.  For those who are 'live in the moment' the moment is always marching forward like the clock tics away.  One can stand still yet, the Earth moves.  Once moved from that spot, from that particular time--it becomes history, regardless if standing still or moving forward--time moves forward, age progresses, moments past are history and moments yet reached--destiny.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 11:45:24 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		greetings
 
I do admit that nothing stays the same, everything changes, BDSM has changed no doubt, for the good or bad is the debate.  In my view, the internet has brought many things to this Lifestyle good and bad.  I do agree that some come here with the idea that they can call themselves slave or subs, agree to anything and still "top from the bottom".  I think that the news media and movies and TV have also impacted this Lifestyle, in my view negativly.  I do also believe that there is a core of Doms, Domme, subs, slaves, Old Guard, Gor, etc that will keep the tradition alive.
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 12:19:26 PM   
dreamscape


Posts: 51
Joined: 4/24/2006
Status: offline 		Being polite never hurt anyone, and casual insults don't do a thing to me.


Good day to you.

(in reply to MaryT)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 3:00:09 PM   
MaryT


Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamscape

Being polite never hurt anyone,


Do you consider making unfair and unwarranted accusations to be polite behavior?

I do not.

MaryT

(in reply to dreamscape)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 3:05:24 PM   
MaryT


Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

Mary, maybe I need some more caffeine, but I am not at all clear on what you are trying to tell me. I think you are taking me to task for dissing on demanding submissives, but not doing the same about excessively demanding Doms.


And non Doms and the nature of the internet and all that.  I believe that the defensiveness you spoke of is a result, not a cause.

quote:

If that is the intent of your comment, then I have to agree, you are correct.

Your Civil War re-enactment analogy does have me mystified. There are people who have continued on with the tradition of the Old Guard school to this day. Is it exactly same thing it was in the '70's or earlier, of course not. But it is an unbroken line of teaching from one generation to the next; they are the current guardians of the Old Guard way of life. Why is it that some people have such a hard time believing this?????


As I see it, the difference is akin to saying, "I am Christian," and claiming, "I am Christ."

MaryT, who is neither

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 3:48:26 PM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		Well, I've had my say. Never saw the point in restating it ad nauseum.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

(in reply to MaryT)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 4:19:53 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		what i don't get is why bdsm must equal old guard, and anything that's not as cool as the old guard must be watered down. "bdsm" means bondage & discipline, dominance & submission, sadism & masochism. therefore, anyone who enjoys practicing any of the above is theoretically involved in bdsm in some way or another. the fact that i don't like knife play may seem watered down to you because unless it involves blood, it's not extreme enough to you. the fact that you don't like breath play may seem watered down to me, because it totally gets me off, and you're obviously silly for not trusting someone enough to put your life in their hands by allowing them to asphyxiate you.

yes, the old guard history has contributed a great deal to bdsm, but it is NOT bdsm. to be honest, i don't want to be part of a secretive club with rules and particular prescriptions about what must be done in order to be considered a real dominant or a real submissive...because my partner and i have our own ideas about that, and we like the way it works for us. while i understand the value of the old guard, i don't understand why it's constantly lorded over everyone's head as the epitome of how one must be in wiitwd, and everything else is just a watered down version that's Not Cool Enough. it's like another poster mentioned - in every hobby/lifestyle, there are people who approach it with curiosity, who do it all the time and live it, and the people who sit around bitching that it's not like it was in the good old days. whether the old guard still exists is of no import to me, because i don't care to emulate it or to become a member; therefore, i think the fact that people are bitching about the watered-down-ness of everything that is not old guard is pretty silly, because i'd rather live bdsm than sit around debating whether my bdsm is bdsmly enough for you.

this is just more of the "one twue way" kind of stupidity that pisses me off. and i see it coming from -all- sides of this argument.

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 6:58:57 PM   
Squeakers


Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline 		I am not sure that I am getting what the OP's question is and no I didn't bother reading through 5 pages of responses.
    
quote:

If its unconfortable I deal with it, becuase my life is devoted to pleasing him.
   If my wrists are becoming numb from restraints---I don't deal with it, I tell him.   I am his and if what belongs to him is in danger, it is up to me to tell him.   He may own those little wrists in the restraints but he can't feel that they are becoming numb.  
    
quote:

I have been reading many of these posts and it seems like many people are really more searching for very secure committed relationships where they have a few kinks in common.
   I think very secure committed relationships are a good thing and opening my mind to new kinks can be fun and exciting.   I have not witnessed anyone committing to relationships where they have few kinks in common, am I missing something?
       
quote:

Many of the subs seem opinionated and bossy. As a sub the idea for me is I do not have a list of demands, I am he of who demands are made.
  I do have a mind therefore, I have an oppinion but I am far from being bossy, it is not in my nature to be bossy.   If I were seeking I would have a list of demands, why attach with someone who could possibly make me miserable, simply because he is Dom and I am sub.
         
quote:

Women have always been the sneakier sex, so while they say they sub there is more of a need to be taken care of than anything.

   All people can be sneaky, it's not a matter of gender.   I do think that at times, some use the D/s as a way to escape problems, the white knight dilemma,   "My life sucks and I need a big, strong, secure Dom to move me out of my welfare apartment, cure my depression and be Daddy to my six children."   But I really think a great many submissives are very capable of taking care of themselves and are not seeking a white knight.   Further, I consider BD/SM equal to Bondage Discipline/ Sadism Masochism and most seeking the white knight are not into the latter.  
    I am not seeing what you mean as to watered down as compared to what?
    Maybe I am just tired but to me this post seems to say---"Pick me because women are not capable of being really submissive, they can't take it and they are needy, bossy and  sneaky."
     

(in reply to thaimeeuppppp)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 7:16:38 PM   
MasterGremlin


Posts: 230
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thaimeeuppppp

or of its just a little different because most people on here are essentially heterosexual. My personal view of submission means when i find a Master I do what he says. If its unconfortable I deal with it, becuase my life is devoted to pleasing him. I have been reading many of these posts and it seems like many people are really more searching for very secure committed relationships where they have a few kinks in common. Many of the subs seem opinionated and bossy. As a sub the idea for me is I do not have a list of demands, I am he of who demands are made. Perhaps because altho I am Bi most of my experience is with men. Women have always been the sneakier sex, so while they say they sub there is more of a need to be taken care of than anything.

[Mod Note:  font reduced]


These are asstounding assumptions and opinions for someone who is "new to the scene".  You would be better served to observe and learn.  
Cordially,
minxy

(in reply to thaimeeuppppp)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 7:22:15 PM   
thaimeeuppppp


Posts: 58
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline 		wow. Alot of people here must be in law school. I am just a seeker of pureness. What I am gathering is that there is a wide variation in degrees of domination and submission withing people who are in this subculture.Also that some use it as sexual fantasy and some live it deeply. I see many really beautifully submissive women post on here but some that seem like they will find that they are truly domme as time goes by. I am not competing to be picked by anyone. There is one man on here I have a sense of deep attraction for, but If he accepts me it is because he is wise enuff to evaluate if I am the proper slave for him. If he does not choose me I assume its in my best interest as well as his. 

(in reply to Squeakers)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down - 1/23/2007 11:09:32 PM   
prettichinadoll


Posts: 35
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know...I mean...Gosh...I was in shock reading this.

So...we are the sneakier sex...and we're the reason for the down fall of civilization? gosh, as far as I know, without women, there won't be any civilization!

Anyway, I guess all the OP wants to say is "My kink is better than your kink!"

Every one has their own way to do BDSM, and as long as they don't hurt anyone, they're free to do whatever they want with their life. There's no "The" way of doing BDSM, there's only many different individual ways. Since it's unique, you can't compaire them and say, OK this is more "DS", that's more "vanilla", and HEY! since you don't do DS the way I do, you can't use the titel "DS" to discribe your lifestyle! That title is Mine to define, and it's for my use only (and very few privileged, sellected people that agree with me).

I start to get sick of this. We're already minority compare to the mainstream culture, yet still we attack, exclusive each other. We're different, yet we can't accept differences. What's up with that?

Anyway...If I'm not "slave-like" because I have an opinion, because I have a brain, because I think, or simply because I'm a woman, well...I don't really want to be this "submissive" or "slave" defined by you anyway.


_____________________________

Happiness is a conscious choice, not an automatic response.

(in reply to TheInfiniteAbyss)
Profile   Post #: 120
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