RE: being married...

RE: being married... (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion

Message

texancutie -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 8:22:51 AM)
Thank you Cloudboy, SusanofO and velvetears. Very compassionate and well thought out posts. I know that many people in BDSM consider themselves to have an open mind and are nonjudgemental, because they know that society as a whole usually views BDSM in a very dim light. But the truth is many who are actively participating in this do not appear to have much of an open mind at all, unless it is a view or lifestyle they personally practice or participate in. Many apparently are not able to see the big picture. We are not in every person's house every day or night of the week to see what goes on, or what does not go on there. And if the moral police are out there on these boards, well....talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Meaning people in glass houses should not throw stones. I am sure we all have done some things we are not proud of at times in our lives, and some of us will continue to do them. We are human after all. Life is too short to be miserable, so people do what they can to lessen what is a difficult situation, whatever it is.

domiguy -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 9:25:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: velvetears i also liked the point Susan made, and i tried to make in an earlier post as well - how "moral or ethical" is it to make a vow to love, cherish, honor, etc your spouse and then pull away all affection (physical and emotional) and expect them to adjust to your ways? There are a kazillion reasons why a person believes divorce is not an option for them. And trust me the witholding spouse knows what they're doing - how ethical is that to hoist on your suppossed cherished one? All you finger pointing stone throwers believe in your fairy tale - marriage is what it is, people are who they are and choices are made that suite each situation. Think outside the box a little. To texancutie,Cloudboy, SusanofO and velvetears...I have been married, and I understand the pitfalls and the possible problems that can arise when anyone decides to "take on" the responsiblities of a relationship. My argument to your point is that you take on the view that you are/were helpless as to having any "say" as to the problems that came up in your relationships. None of you are young adults, you are all over the age of 40 and should know better. You act as if you had no choice but to accept the actions of the "others" who comprised your relationship. So days turn into weeks and then months turn into years...and you say "Wow! life sure did a number on me!" ...I would think a sentient being would ask, "what did I do to get into this situation in the first place"...and/or "HOW DID I ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO ME?" When in fact it was YOUR CHOICE, by not taking a course of action... that allowed this predicament to POSSIBLY arise in the first place, but defintely your lack of action allowed it to fester and flourish! There are situaions that our beyond are control...Serious health problems, mental health issues...and I know there are others that might lead one to go astray...(Hell if my partner breaks a fingernail or gains too many extra lbs...I'm gone!...lol.) However, it seems that most of the arguments that have the "pro-cheating" slant all seem to have an all to familiar "hollow echo" that they had no control over what was happening and that divorce was not a possible answer to the problem...and they were not to blame! How is anyone to learn from their experience if they take this path? It's not about a programmed interpretation or fantasy of marriage...(which I will probably never venture into again) It's the understanding that relationships run their course...some stick...some don't...But without honesty, an open line of communication, enjoying what you both have to bring to the table...there is no point. My point is you may not have beeen the initial cause of the failed relationship...but your failure to act in a timely fashion when all signs were pointing to the fact that "the ship is sinking" does not give you a free pass, a life boat, a life jacket or much sympathy. What you should be doing is accepting your own responsibility...warning others of the pitfalls and figuring out what your own culpability was in all of this so that the same mistakes won't have to be dealt with once again down the road. "Heavy sir."..."Yes, But it had to be said."....Domiguys periscope slowly slips below the surface of the seas. out. D.G. p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.

Celeste43 -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 9:41:27 AM)
Divorce was a possibility in my marriage, if I was to trade off my daughter's precarious mental health for it. I'm not that shallow as to throw away her life for my own whims. So I sought affection and affirmation outside it until her psychiatrist said she was sufficiently stable to survive the divorce. But for me to be able to continue to be her advocate, I needed support which her father would not give, not to me nor to her. He didn't give a damn about his kids but she cared for him and could not then have dealt with him walking out permanently.

SusanofO -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 9:44:53 AM)
domiguy: You seem to lack imagination. Also, your answer seems to imply little understanding that it takes two people to make a relationship work (in which case, my advice to you would be to skip ever being married again). Who said I didn't know just what you imply - or that I never tried to solve whatever problems existed in my marriage? Where did you reach this conclusion? You are terribly wrong about that. I went to marriage counselling (even after he quit, claiming it was silly). I spent years buying sexy nighties, etc. and playing the agressor in bed. Nothing changed. I begged my husband to get Viagra, Levitra - something - and use it (he claimed it gave him migraines). I then point-blank asked him if he cared if I cheated - and he said he did care! (but - he wasn't going to change). He refused to agree to a divorce, and my family out-right said they'd ostracize me if I got a divorce (mostly my mother, who died just two years later, btw). I finally decided to committ suicide, I was so miserable. After that (fortunately) failed attempt to kill myself, I decided my husband wasn't worth it, and I had an affair anyway. If you look at my profile - I bother to take care of myself. I am not being arrogant, but - I was pretty sure my problem wasn't that I'd "let myself go". It started to slowly dawn on me - this wasn't my problem at all, in fact. It was his problem. Frankly - I didn't do a whole lot to cause whatever reasons there were that this problem existed, and I tried to do something to solve them anway. He was a pretty selfish person (IMO - they do exist, even though this situation might seem extreme to you). Okay, another example. I have a neighbor who edits a newspaper here in town. For the past 20 years, his schizophrenic wife has been insitituionalized. He won't divorce her because if he did, she would lose healthcare covereage that is crucial for her. Maybe it's just me - but if this man were to find some other woman to have an affair with outside his (irretrievably broken, IMO) marriage, I would not condemn him at all (for all I know he's done that. I have not inquiured, though). There are so many situations I can imagine where your hard-line line of thinking just amounts to total and complete horse-patootie I cannot begin to count them all. But then again - I consider myself a compassionate person, not a fundmentlaist moralizer. I am not condoning "cheating." What I am saying is, what looks to be a "right" or "wrong", it's good or it's always-bad answer to these kinds of situations, well- that's horse-patootie, too, sometimes. - Susan

domiguy -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 9:47:34 AM)
quote: Celeste43 Divorce was a possibility in my marriage, if I was to trade off my daughter's precarious mental health for it. I'm not that shallow as to throw away her life for my own whims. So I sought affection and affirmation outside it until her psychiatrist said she was sufficiently stable to survive the divorce. But for me to be able to continue to be her advocate, I needed support which her father would not give, not to me nor to her. He didn't give a damn about his kids but she cared for him and could not then have dealt with him walking out permanently. Very nicely put. If others would like to contribute their thoughts,I realize that they are personal and may not wished to be divulged, but this is how one can understand why one would stay and stray from the commitments that were made...Whether right or wrong, only time will be the judge. quote: SusanofO went to marriage counselling (even after he quit, claiming it was silly). I spent years buying sexy nighties, etc. and playing the agressor in bed. Nothing changed. I begged my husband to get Viagra, Levitra - something - and use it (he claimed it gave him migraines). I then point-blank asked him if he cared if I cheated - and he said he did care! (but - he wasn't going to change). He refused to agree to a divorce, and my family out-right said they'd ostracize me if I got one (mostly my mother, who died just two years later, btw). I finally decided to committ suicide, I was so miserable. After that (fortunately) failed attempt to kill myself, I decided my husband wasn't worth it, and I had an affair anyway. domiguy: Okay. I have a neighbor who edits a newspaper here in town. For the past 20 years, his schizophrenic wife has been insitituionalized. He won't divorce her because if he did, she would lose healthcare covereage. Maybe it's just me - but if this man were to find some other woman to have an affair with outside his (irretrievably broken, IMO) marriage, I would not condemn him at all (for all I know he's done that. I have not inquiured, though). 1) I'm sorry for what you are going through....and again I am by no means a moral barometer...But kids, here is the problem....It doesn't take two to get a divorce! Abusers lose their wives all the time without giving consent...he didn't go through with counseling...your family would have disowned you...Where does your happiness fit into any of this? Where is the course of action? Where is the attorney...or "we the people" document service to file for divorce...My family doesn't have my back(especially from what you described) they can kiss my ass! I am sorry...but what you are describing is a lack of action...There are resources in communities if money is an issue. You have to seek them out....They don't come looking for you. It's difficult, not everyone has the will or determination to remove themselves from these situations....But there is a life worth living...The question is do you deserve it or not? And by not taking action does this absolve you from all responsibility? 2)Health insurance....reread your post...editing another good point as to why someone might stray from their commitment...His wife needs to be taken care of and the insurance will make sure the care is adequate and properly overseen....Look this is supposed to be somewhat fun and entertaining....I am by no means the judge of morality...people can justify anything for any reason....It just depends... Is the cost of hanging around in some shitty relationship worth,half of your assets,lying,always having to cover your trail?...Some will answer yes. Others will say that there is no price that can be put on my pursuit of happiness,honesty,the freedom to come and go and be able to do what I want without having to be questioned or always looking over my shoulder....Those are some of the decisions that people will have to make...There is a saying "anyone who marries for money will earn every penny of it."..Each individual has to decide where their worth lies out. D.G. p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.

Mercnbeth -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 10:13:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Celeste43 Divorce was a possibility in my marriage, if I was to trade off my daughter's precarious mental health for it. I'm not that shallow as to throw away her life for my own whims. So I sought affection and affirmation outside it until her psychiatrist said she was sufficiently stable to survive the divorce. But for me to be able to continue to be her advocate, I needed support which her father would not give, not to me nor to her. He didn't give a damn about his kids but she cared for him and could not then have dealt with him walking out permanently. Celeste, When your daughter is of an age and finds out, though honest disclosure or her own reasoning; will she have to return to psychoanalysis to reconcile what occurred during this period. Will she feel any blame or guilt because she was, according to your post above, the reason you stayed in a unhappy, unfulfilled relationship? NOT necessary germane to Celeste's post: There isn't a "right way" or "wrong way" or any "answer" for that matter. But a "project out" exercise should always be fleshed out. If you want to feel good about your position on either side of the issue, it's a easy matter to only read complimentary agreement posts and nod. Of course it is comfortable to store the negative implications or potential consequences in a dark corner of your brain, and go out. It is very easy to isolate the guilt and focus on only one thing - not getting caught - today. I can appreciate it may be even part of the "excitement". Most of the time, it is just a delay tactic or an avoidance issue. What hopes can you have that it will work out fine? Death, partner getting their own 'distraction', aging, dramatic life circumstance change; are any positive? The "worst lie" is the one you tell yourself. "It'll work out"; usually means you don't have the confidence to work it out for/by yourself and hope to be able to re-act when "time comes". It really has nothing to do with "fidelity" or "marriage". It's a matter of being able to face the truth about yourself and tomorrow's consequences for today. From my perspective, there is no "judgment" involved with this position. My apologies to those who feel judged. It's really a question directed to those that have a life kept secret and outside their primary relationship. Have you, do you, "project out"?

SusanofO -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 10:16:49 AM)
Mercnbeth: I happen to agree with you (unless the person is Poly, and their spouse knows about their proclivities) - but it took awhile for me to reach that conclusion for myself. general comment: I can imagine situations where a domestic abuser, say, might threaten his wife, were she to "cheat" and he means it, and she just sees herself as being totally up against a wall in her miserable marriage (for many reasons - kids are involved, or lack of family support, lack of any financial resources were she to leave, or other conditions which amount to (and sometimes are) emotional abuse, when combined with the other conditions that seem to exist in the marriage. How do I know this? I see people who live in similar situations at the children's shelter where I work. They are sometimes the biological parents of the kids at the shelter. domiguy: Well, thank you for conceding there might indeed be an exception or two to any hard-line thinking on this topic.Well, my neighbor with the insitutionalized wife doesn't happen to think it's her fault she went insane. And he is also a Catholic, and is against divorce for almost all reasons. Her care would be compromised greatly if she were to only be receving Medicare coverage (he has really good insurance). I have no idea if this guy has ever had an affair. If he did, I would never, ever condemn him for it. And Celeste 43's example is another good one. There are more than a few married peope with children where the so-called "adulterous spouse" cares more for, and is much more involved, with the children than the "upstanding, non-cheating spouse" - my guess anyway. Monogamous people can be selfish bastards (or bastardesses), just like so-called "philanderers." - Susan

mnottertail -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 10:20:51 AM)
This is an area that would fall out of the discussion I think, since there is no matter of consensuality apparent. I laud his personal convictions in this matter, and in this case certainly I would not disparage him for doing the backseat watusi. Ron

SusanofO -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 10:23:27 AM)
mnottertail: Well, okay, glad to hear it. - Susan

denika -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 10:40:23 AM)
SunShine thank you, that does clarify it better, we are one of the few that are not monoganous, we are open and honest about who we are with, we don't do casual 'flings' but we do have other relationships. ( not to split hairs but mono is defined by one on one hence my reaction to poly being monogamous it didn't make sense) We don't have children but we know others who are poly and open who have unmetnionables, and they are very well adjusted unmentionables with bright amazing personalites. denika

Mercnbeth -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 10:53:16 AM)
quote: Mercnbeth: I happen to agree with you (unless the person is Poly, and their spouse knows about their proclivities) - but it took awhile for me to reach that conclusion for myself. Susan, I agree in the point you make. An open, honest, and full disclosure to all parties doesn't create a situation where future reconciliation is necessary. If, after all disclosure and attempts for accommodating you partner result in an impasse; there is no "non-consenting" aspect. to be considered. Better yet, there should be guilt or remorse to process the morning after. I don't know how much "fun" (and its ALL about fun) I would have with the memory of a memorable Saturday night at a club fresh in my thoughts while having pancakes with my unknowing spouse and replicants on Sunday morning.

marieToo -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 11:30:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ORIGINAL: Celeste43 Divorce was a possibility in my marriage, if I was to trade off my daughter's precarious mental health for it. I'm not that shallow as to throw away her life for my own whims. So I sought affection and affirmation outside it until her psychiatrist said she was sufficiently stable to survive the divorce. But for me to be able to continue to be her advocate, I needed support which her father would not give, not to me nor to her. He didn't give a damn about his kids but she cared for him and could not then have dealt with him walking out permanently. Celeste, When your daughter is of an age and finds out, though honest disclosure or her own reasoning; will she have to return to psychoanalysis to reconcile what occurred during this period. Will she feel any blame or guilt because she was, according to your post above, the reason you stayed in a unhappy, unfulfilled relationship? Oh please, "for the children" is the most common reason people stay and try to make it work. Her kids will probably grow up and understand that completely. Why would she need a shrink to get over that any more than your kids are going to need a shrink for your life's decisions and the demonstrations of them?

velvetears -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 11:32:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy [ To texancutie,Cloudboy, SusanofO and velvetears...I have been married, and I understand the pitfalls and the possible problems that can arise when anyone decides to "take on" the responsiblities of a relationship. My argument to your point is that you take on the view that you are/were helpless as to having any "say" as to the problems that came up in your relationships. None of you are young adults, you are all over the age of 40 and should know better. You act as if you had no choice but to accept the actions of the "others" who comprised your relationship. First of all i never said anything about being "helpless". You read that into it. And using a "should know better approach" is condescending - you don't know any of us, so don't dare try to reproach us. What i am saying is after careful consideration, for everyone involved in the decision to divorce or not divorce, cheat or not cheat, one should come to a decision that will be best for all concerned. Two examples given were just two of many that can happen. i would also venture to say that a spouse who ignores their partner, if that partner tries, as Susan did to work things out and not get divorced, they give consent by default. If i ask someone if they want to come on a trip with me and they simply ignore me and don't give me an answer, and then they come to my place with their bags ready to go a half hour after i left - well whose to blame? They said no to me by virtue of their silence. So days turn into weeks and then months turn into years...and you say "Wow! life sure did a number on me!" ...I would think a sentient being would ask, "what did I do to get into this situation in the first place"...and/or "HOW DID I ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN TO ME?" When in fact it was YOUR CHOICE, by not taking a course of action... that allowed this predicament to POSSIBLY arise in the first place, but defintely your lack of action allowed it to fester and flourish! You have so many easy answers to very complicated issues - sure hope you are not in the therapy field or counseling field, if you are i pity your patients. If a kid falls off his bike would you say, "suck it up kid, don't cry over what happened, your responsible for skidding off the bike by going too fast" Or maybe thats how your parents treated you?? There are situaions that our beyond are control...Serious health problems, mental health issues...and I know there are others that might lead one to go astray...(Hell if my partner breaks a fingernail or gains too many extra lbs...I'm gone!...lol.) Doesn't surprise me. However, it seems that most of the arguments that have the "pro-cheating" slant all seem to have an all to familiar "hollow echo" that they had no control over what was happening and that divorce was not a possible answer to the problem...and they were not to blame! How is anyone to learn from their experience if they take this path? This isn't about having "no control" or "blame" it's about making a decision that best fits your situation. If others find it morally reprehensible than i AGAIN ask - how moral is it for the spouse to ignore the partner as in Susan's case. How moral would it be for that man to divorce his mentally ill wife so he could go get his rocks off with someone? How moral is it for a husband to emotionally abandon his wife while she is in agony about her ill daughter? i would say those who cause this are the morally bankrupt culprits who deserve reproach. It's easy to hide our heads in the sand over these types of situations but they do exist. It's not about a programmed interpretation or fantasy of marriage...(which I will probably never venture into again) It's the understanding that relationships run their course...some stick...some don't...But without honesty, an open line of communication, enjoying what you both have to bring to the table...there is no point. My point is you may not have beeen the initial cause of the failed relationship...but your failure to act in a timely fashion when all signs were pointing to the fact that "the ship is sinking" does not give you a free pass, a life boat, a life jacket or much sympathy. What you should be doing is accepting your own responsibility...warning others of the pitfalls and figuring out what your own culpability was in all of this so that the same mistakes won't have to be dealt with once again down the road. Why do you assume people don't "act in a timely fashion" i for one think Susan (as one example) gave her husband more then ample time, opportunity and tried her damdest to work it out - she wasn't oblivious nor did she ignore the situation. He was the one with his head stuck up his a**. i hope your life continues on its perfect moral direction domiguy for when you fall, you'll fall hard.

Mercnbeth -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 11:52:07 AM)
quote: Oh please, "for the children" is the most common reason people stay and try to make it work. Her kids will probably grow up and understand that completely. Why would she need a shrink to get over that any more than your kids are going to need a shrink for your life's decisions and the demonstrations of them? Marie, Exactly the point, and totally agree with you! There should be no need of a "shrink". Therefore, "kids" shouldn't be used as an excuse to cheat; making living a lie with them and your partner unnecessary.

marieToo -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 12:09:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Oh please, "for the children" is the most common reason people stay and try to make it work. Her kids will probably grow up and understand that completely. Why would she need a shrink to get over that any more than your kids are going to need a shrink for your life's decisions and the demonstrations of them? Marie, Exactly the point, and totally agree with you! There should be no need of a "shrink". Therefore, "kids" shouldn't be used as an excuse to cheat; making living a lie with them and your partner unnecessary. It didnt read to me like she was using her child as "an excuse to cheat" but rather as a reason to try to make it work. It doesnt work out that way, but she sure as fuck tried very hard for that reason before learning that even for our kids we cant live our lives miserably. Ive seen no one here try to excuse cheating. How many times can "theres no excuse" be repeated, Merc? When do we ever discuss, the why, the how, the reasons, the avoidance of the mistake, the forgiveness, the lesson, the moving on, the getting past it? What I see are people laying themselves out here in an effort to do just that, and all they keep hearing is "theres no excuse" "theres no excuse". Theres no excuse for any other decisions or immoral decision that human being fall from grace on either. We've established that theres no excuse for cheating about 458, 856,0000 times now. Can we discuss any other angle of it? Cheaters: Were hundreds of thousands of 'cheaters' born horrid unworthy sinners? Or maybe the societal and cultural ideal that we are supposed to try to live our entire lives with only one person fulfilling every single physical, intimate, emotional and intellectual need we're ever going have is whats so insane. My point is that if we dont move beyond the 10 pages of "theres no excuse" repetition, there can never be solution, discussion, exploration, expression, healing, learning etc. How many people have to friggin share their deepest fucking confessions in an effort to move towards understanding, before someone starts to listen instead of judging?

NorthernGent -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 12:18:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Although it's been awhile, I personally have retained some (still) painful memory of just what it feels like to be ignored, completely taken for granted, and recieve no affection (let alone sex) whatsoever in a marriage. After 10 years of living in an arid, affection-less desert, with a husband who refused to either consider a divorce, or to "let" me have an affair, I finally stopped kicking myself, and had one anyway. I agree this is a situation which needs a bit more thought before jumping on the bandwagon. If a person can't treat another with respect then he/she shouldn't expect any in return. This is getting into a grey area of where do you draw the line and what constitutes a lack of respect but based on the above I'll say he was lucky he got 10 years out of you. I take the point that there's no one size fits all here.

SusanofO -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 12:46:05 PM)
NorthernGent: I appreciate that (and also what velevettears, and MercNbeth, and marie, said). Thank you. - Susan

Mercnbeth -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 12:48:22 PM)
Marie, This is the quote in its entirety: quote: Divorce was a possibility in my marriage, if I was to trade off my daughter's precarious mental health for it. I'm not that shallow as to throw away her life for my own whims. So I sought affection and affirmation outside it until her psychiatrist said she was sufficiently stable to survive the divorce. But for me to be able to continue to be her advocate, I needed support which her father would not give, not to me nor to her. He didn't give a damn about his kids but she cared for him and could not then have dealt with him walking out permanently. I am not advocating "there's no excuse"; if anything I'm recognizing that there are plenty of excuses. There are plenty of "whys", "hows", and "reasons". There was nothing read into the post. In lieu of divorce, the poster chose "affection and affirmation outside". Mental health of an individual impacted by that choice was given as the stated reason. I asked if the same reasoning was projected out why wouldn't the same mental health consideration come into play? I'll go further and say that it was correct and appropriate to give such serious consideration. It has absolutely nothing to do with "cheating". The question remains, why isn't it as important after the fact? Consistency or addressing inconsistency is not judgment. To me this is exactly what you request. This is a very different "angle". Go ahead - address it.

KinkyNFun -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 12:56:56 PM)
*wrong profile*

LotusSong -> RE: being married... (1/29/2007 1:05:12 PM)
Someone told me once that Marriage "Is the maximum loneliness with the minimum amount of privacy".

Page: << < prev 10 11 [12] 13 14 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.03125