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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/31/2007 1:31:11 AM   
woundedbird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


Bottom line, for me, they are separate entities which hold hands so very well together, but don't have to do so in order to be appreciated for the unique qualities each can offer to enhance someone's life and help them thrive and grow. But, that's just the way that I view it and if others want to lump everything under a general umbrella and call it BDSM, it doesn't mean they haven't been educated, it just means they went to a different school and that's their way. I don't begrudge the lumping and I hope they don't begrudge me the separation. 
 


This says most closely what i was trying to say in my own, fumbling way.  I did not mean the education remard to mean that I thought everyone should think the same way as I do.  I meant it as people are not taught to think in general, and I stated it very very badly.  For that, I apologize.  As far as the intelligence/respect argument that seems to be going through this thread....I respect both your opinions, but you both are missing the point.  The point is, in my mind, to live and let live.  Just because I don't like a certain thing, or maybe even a certain person, doesn't mean I have to spew paragraphs about it.  It's a waste of both of yours time.   

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/2/2007 12:20:43 AM   
obey1


Posts: 227
Joined: 11/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


You asked me for verses to support my post. I provided them to counter your contention that D/s and BDSM had a common beginning in relation to the Dark Ages and witch hunts. If you believe that using the bible, which predates the dark ages and witch hunts and in fact, was used to support those trials, is specious, then so too, is your contention that D/s and BDSM are reflective of being part of 'the scene' as you call it. If you want to have a serious dialouge, I'm happy to do so but I prefer to engage in mature discourse and not specious arguement. I bid you wellness and good day.

Celeste


Honestly I had to look up specious.  But in the end we are all speculating.

http://www.datenschlag.org/english/dachs/dachs_english.pdf

For the record I completely agree with you but there is no way to prove it.  At least, the Spanish Inquisition (which Monte Python made clear that nobody expects) had some of the contraptions this site offers for Avatars.  To me that is proof enough that it started there, when torture became in the name of God, the church, and everything holy.

So you are right.  Touche' BitaTruble, I got your back.

< Message edited by obey1 -- 2/2/2007 12:22:14 AM >

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/2/2007 12:30:39 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Anyone that can use Monty Python during a conversation about D/s vs BDSM can't be all bad. You are right, we are all speculating, so I yield back the point and will just point that some of the avatars here are pretty damn hot. ::chuckles::

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/2/2007 1:37:47 AM   
sloki


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		Religon and its rituals beget violence and torture of all kinds. This is in no way limited to Western religions. Nothing can fire a human up quite like it.  Its not specious at all, its a rational claim. Its seemingly hardwired into our relationships.  Even if individual people arent religious, is still affects them. 

I think the real lesson in submission, is to learn to worship (serve) another human being, just like we do to god, and to learn to think of ourselves as holy too. 

Might be the roots of a penchant for the racks... and lil white bunnys. 





< Message edited by sloki -- 2/2/2007 1:43:53 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/2/2007 5:06:16 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		Obey 1. A lot of people including me have come from a school of harder knocks than you. You bring your own prespective and opinions to this venue and I admire that. One of the faults of this site is that we do'nt all agree to disagree. Take the crappy retorts with a grain of salt and ignore.

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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/2/2007 5:30:15 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obey1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


You asked me for verses to support my post. I provided them to counter your contention that D/s and BDSM had a common beginning in relation to the Dark Ages and witch hunts. If you believe that using the bible, which predates the dark ages and witch hunts and in fact, was used to support those trials, is specious, then so too, is your contention that D/s and BDSM are reflective of being part of 'the scene' as you call it. If you want to have a serious dialouge, I'm happy to do so but I prefer to engage in mature discourse and not specious arguement. I bid you wellness and good day.

Celeste


Honestly I had to look up specious.  But in the end we are all speculating.

http://www.datenschlag.org/english/dachs/dachs_english.pdf

For the record I completely agree with you but there is no way to prove it.  At least, the Spanish Inquisition (which Monte Python made clear that nobody expects) had some of the contraptions this site offers for Avatars.  To me that is proof enough that it started there, when torture became in the name of God, the church, and everything holy.

So you are right.  Touche' BitaTruble, I got your back.


I think everyone probably used torture back then, they were different times. It was acceptable, even expected. It's like institutional slavery, and raping, and pillaging. Everyone was doing it!!!

Just because the Church existed during that time doesn't make it any better or worse than any other institution, that was normal for that age - for everyone. Kings used torture, husbands did, landlords did... everyone. It was normal.

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/2/2007 10:31:11 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sloki

Religon and its rituals beget violence and torture of all kinds. This is in no way limited to Western religions. Nothing can fire a human up quite like it.  Its not specious at all, its a rational claim.





I think you missed a post. What I called specious was his argument that JC was flogged implying that it didn't matter if torture and S/m can be found aplenty in the bible but that D/s and S/m had a common beginning brought about by the dark ages of the Inquistion and witch hunts. I contend it started well before that and had provided several quotes from the bible to site my belief. That said, if one believes the bible to be fiction (and many do) then my own arguement is speculative as well, but if it is, then so, too, must the argument that the dark ages and witch hunts are also speculative since the bible was used as a 'reason' for those atrocities.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/2/2007 10:33:38 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I remember attending a lecture once and having an amusing sidebar of the lecturer showing slides of ancient Greek pottery showing spanking between gay lovers.

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/3/2007 8:12:39 PM   
ImpGrrl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: woundedbird

smiles...but that's my point.  I was taught one way, and it's a way that makes sense to me.  While, yes BDSM and D/s do go hand in hand, one can, and does exist without the other.  So, why are they thought of as interchangeable?  Why do they fall under "one umbrella"?  BDSM doesn't HAVE to be about power exchange, it can simply be a good time between friends.


There are a lot of activities within, and ways of doing, all of this stuff.  So some people created an "umbrella term" that is intended to just simply mean "all that there stuff" without listing them out.

BDSM and d/s are not interchangeable, but when one speaks of "BDSM", they might be including d/s.  BDSM is the whole, d/s is a part of it.

I think when you are saying "BDSM" you probably mean "SM", or "B&D", or any of the other myriad activities and ways of life that fall under the "BDSM" umbrella. 

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/3/2007 8:15:32 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Let me put it this way.  It is impossible to have a bondage scene without a power exchange.  One person has to have control.  There is the top and the bottom.  It is impossible to have a discipline scene without control.  It is impossible to have a D/s dynamic without control and a power exchange.  It is impossible to have an S&M session without control.  Without the control/power exchange umbrella there is no dynamic.  That is all there is to it.


You had my agreement until here.

It *is* possible to have SM without a power exchange - or to reverse the expected power dynamic and have the bottom be the dominant in the pair.  Being under the same umbrella doesn't necessarily mean that they're all tangled up with one another.


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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/6/2007 7:24:58 PM   
obey1


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Joined: 11/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Without the control/power exchange umbrella there is no dynamic.  That is all there is to it.


You had my agreement until here.

It *is* possible to have SM without a power exchange - or to reverse the expected power dynamic and have the bottom be the dominant in the pair.  Being under the same umbrella doesn't necessarily mean that they're all tangled up with one another.




You just deny giving or taking any power.  It is OK for you, but it is not the practiced norm.  I've known lots of subs that feel special in that moment.  I will go out on a limb and say that subs and slaves are more experienced at managing that power exchange that we give them credit for....

(hides behind a garbage can lid for all the peas-corn shot out of a straw)

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/28/2007 12:53:37 PM   
sloki


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		I think you missed a post. What I called specious was his argument that JC was flogged implying that it didn't matter if torture and S/m can be found aplenty in the bible but that D/s and S/m had a common beginning brought about by the dark ages of the Inquistion and witch hunts. I contend it started well before that and had provided several quotes from the bible to site my belief. That said, if one believes the bible to be fiction (and many do) then my own arguement is speculative as well, but if it is, then so, too, must the argument that the dark ages and witch hunts are also speculative since the bible was used as a 'reason' for those atrocities.

Celeste

I may have missed a couple of posts, thanks for the clear up. This thread hit a hot spot with me, Its a favorite subject of mine.  So sorry in advance if this post offends, I am fully aware that it probably will. I am convinced at this point, that the roots of racism, sexism and war are all rooted in our religious values. 

Im a Sociologist and and agnostic.  My main areas of study are sexuality and religion. In my veiw the bible is complete fiction. We are its authors, not just its editors.  It is not used by people to support atrocities.  It was written by people to support atrociteis they were and are still commiting.  This is also not a historical phenomenon, it is happening even today.  Turn on the news. The bible or any religion, does many things things, none of them good. It gives us permission to hate, even kill people who are 'different' ie have a different religion. It denies individual responsibility for our actions.  God ran the previous residents out of the holy land, not the invading peoples.  It separates spirituality from human suffering, it teaches us that life is about suffering, and that any pleasure we seek is sinful.  It teaches us that internal beliefs are worth killing, or dying for.  If those boys had not fully believed that they would get a harem of virgins after death, they would not have been inclined to fly planes into to twin towers.  This country was founded on the idea that 'god' gave us this continent, so we had divine right to clear it of all the 'ungodly heathens' that were living here. Its like having an imaginary friend who can forgive us for actions that are simply unforgivable and make it all ok. We killed off the Native peoples of this country and we told them that we had to cause god wanted it that way, as if our desire for domination had nothing to do with it.

It is a fact, that people who are religious are more likely to abuse and molest both children and adults.  This is based on solid research, not just my observation.  If you write me on this I will send you academic materials on it.  The FBI also states that convicted child molesters are largely religious people.  Its a common, well studied phenomenon.

From my own observation, I have found that Christians especially, tend to reify thier choices.  As in I have to do something, rather than this is my choice.

I dont date em, they have lousy morals and inconsistent value systems that can easily change to meet up to support whatever abusive or immoral behaviour a person could come up with.

Just so you dont think Im picking on the Christians, understand I feel this way about all religion, not just that one. 

14Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. 15And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. 16And he that blasphemeth the name of Jehovah, he shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the sojourner, as the home-born, when he blasphemeth the name of Jehovah, shall be put to death. 17And he that smiteth any man mortally shall surely be put to death. 18And he that smiteth a beast mortally shall make it good, life for life. 19And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbor; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him: 20breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be rendered unto him. 21And he that killeth a beast shall make it good: and he that killeth a man shall be put to death. 22Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the sojourner, as for the home-born: for I am Jehovah your God. 23And Moses spake to the children of Israel; and they brought forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stoned him with stones. And the children of Israel did as Jehovah commanded Moses.





Beliefs are actions waiting to happen.


< Message edited by sloki -- 2/28/2007 1:22:40 PM >

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/28/2007 1:01:05 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Im a Sociologist and and agnostic.  My main areas of study are sexuality and religion. In my veiw the bible is complete fiction.


This is not the view of interdisciplinary studies on bibical history. It is a book of propaganda, history, laws, geneology, spirituality and myth.. but I have never ever heard anyone seriously contend that it was a complete work of fiction in academia... even though many of its harder to believe tales are dismissed. (I am not a Christian or a Jew btw)

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/28/2007 1:30:09 PM   
sloki


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline 		No one in academia would seriously contend that this book was written by an imaginary being either.  It is history yes, as we wanted it to be.  Thats the point, no matter what the bible says, or whether the information in it is valid, the buck stops with us.  We wrote the damn thing and unfortunately, we act on it.



< Message edited by sloki -- 2/28/2007 1:33:03 PM >

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/28/2007 1:46:17 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I was just responding to it being a book of fiction... there are all kinds of factual books in the world that are not written by God. BTW, I am not agnostic nor am I religious. I have no deep feelings one way or the other about the topic.

_____________________________

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/28/2007 2:27:56 PM   
TrueCalling


Posts: 97
Joined: 1/28/2005
Status: offline 		Upon my initial reading of exchanges between Obey and Kenin I thought they might be bastard twins separated at birth...I know now that Obey was separated from the idiot 'dom' on aol who told me he's been dominant since the age of three. ~laughing~ What a shame it is when someone posts a question and  another uses his posts to try and convince himself and/or others that he is above all others. Bloviation never suits a man, however. I will respond to this question as I did to a similar question...life according to principles, beliefs and naturally occuring traits in a person is what I term 'D/s'. BDSM/kink may or may not be included in a principles- based commitment. As for those who are simply into kink, i see the 'temporary consent' more applicable than a power exchange, as some insist must be in place. In my life relations power had been exchanged initially, and once, as oppopsed to repeated consent.

colleen
 
~What you are does not make you what you THINK you are~ 

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/28/2007 3:14:16 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Dear WB-
 
in the mid nineties, when the web really exploded, and message boards and chatrooms popped up all over the place, Terms became more important, and some bright person coined 'BDSM' as an acronym to include B&D, D/S, and SM, to serve as an umbrella term for WIIWD (what it is we do).
 


I was educated by Leatherfolk so my understanding is a bit different.

Before the acronym BDSM ever came about, the notion was simply called Leathersex. The acronym was created as umbrella term for the 6 different aspects that encompassed Leathersex (D/S, B/D, S/M). 

Like the BDSM emblem, each is a different part, but when they all come together, they form a union. The union being the dark sexuality of Leathersex. However, because of the Internet and people doing all different kinds of things, (and as you said it, poor education) a lot of people dont understand how they all come together to form one really awesome thing because no one really knows the history of this stuff BEFORE the Internet.

To me at least, the D/S in BDSM refers to the power exchange portion of Leathersex so I think the D/S in BDSM and the D/S being refered to in this thread are different things.

One refers to authority based relationships that can have zero sexuality involved and the other refers to the notion of power exchange in a scene (Leathersex).

When someone says BDSM to me, I am thinking of that dark sexuality (Leathersex). Someone solely says D/S to me, I am thinking of authority based relationships. When someone says M/S to me, I am thinking a higher and more spirital form of D/S.

BDSM is a sexuality and D/S and M/S is a relationship.

Just what it means to me.

P.S I also think a lot of this thread is bullshit one true wayism type of crap where people are shoving their definitions down other people's throats with a narrowminded "This is how it is cause I said so!" and no comprhension of how all these terms can mean so many different things to so many different people. Shame on a lot of you.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 2/28/2007 3:19:53 PM >

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 2/28/2007 6:58:31 PM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obey1

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Without the control/power exchange umbrella there is no dynamic.  That is all there is to it.


You had my agreement until here.

It *is* possible to have SM without a power exchange - or to reverse the expected power dynamic and have the bottom be the dominant in the pair.  Being under the same umbrella doesn't necessarily mean that they're all tangled up with one another.




You just deny giving or taking any power.  It is OK for you, but it is not the practiced norm.


Right - I specifically said "it is possible".  Which was a disagreement with the person I was responding to, who said that there is *always* "control/power exchange".

quote:

I've known lots of subs that feel special in that moment.


I'm not sure what "feeling special" has to do with "control/power exchange"?

quote:

I will go out on a limb and say that subs and slaves are more experienced at managing that power exchange that we give them credit for....


I'd say that s-types aren't given credit for much in "the practiced norm".  It's a shame, really.

(in reply to obey1)
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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 3/1/2007 2:20:50 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		As I have said in another thread, back in the pre-interweb days bdsm was explained to me as an umbrella term that covered every possible way of living or playing using any combination of the letters, therefore I have to disagree with the oft cited claim that all this mixing up came around as a result of kinky people discovering the world on-line and trying to create inclusive labels. Pretty much any aspect of what any of us round here does or enjoys can be pulled out of those four simple letters.

Pick what you like and enjoy it, don't worry about the rest.

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 3/1/2007 2:27:18 PM   
swtrayn


Posts: 222
Joined: 2/21/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Let me put it this way.  It is impossible to have a bondage scene without a power exchange.  One person has to have control.  There is the top and the bottom.  It is impossible to have a discipline scene without control.  It is impossible to have a D/s dynamic without control and a power exchange.  It is impossible to have an S&M session without control.  Without the control/power exchange umbrella there is no dynamic.  That is all there is to it.
Kenin....I agree with half of this. You can't have a bondage scene wthout a power exchange, but you can certainly have D/s without BDSM. Dominance is not a scene..it is in fact a dynamic or dare I say, a lifestyle and can exist without any kink associated with it what so ever. Certainly the fact that it is there, makes BDSM possible, but just because you have contol doesn't mean it's a BDSM day..it's just an option.


I have to say I like the way you worded it. I can see how many see the lines as blured sometimes because usually (not always) with D/s there is some type of discipline, so some may see this as being part of the BDSM. I myself see as some others do here. D/s as the mental and emotional... BDSM the physical.

again.. my two cents


rayn





(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 120
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