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RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/9/2007 7:26:30 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

You honestly think a fence is going to secure the border?  I think Stephen Colbert's idea of motes of flaming magma and iron clad crocodiles has both a better chance and is less fanciful.


puella:
The quite simple solution is to arrest the people who employ them and confiscate their property that was paid for by the labor of these migrant slaves.  When people like Wal Mart and tyson food and Swift and Hormel and the rest of these slavers start going to prison and loosing their multi million dollar factories and homes and boats and such then there will be no more illegal immigration and these people will be forced to pay a living wage to american citizens.
thompson


Thompson, you're right on this point.
Big Corporations and businesses have their dicks deep into the ass of this administration.
Everything Bush has done is for them and the American People be damned!
This is GREED on a Biblical scale.
Bush should be impeached for dereliction of duty because of the border/ illegal alien situation alone!
How on earth can *any* country put up with having 12-20 million illegal aliens within it's borders and it's government does nothing but talk?
It's gotten so bad that I don't care if we have jack booted police kicking in doors at 0300 just get these people the (fuck) out!
Our schools, hospitals, courts, jails and other systems are collapsing under their weight. We Citizens pay for those things and illegals come here and steal from us and in the process drive down wages for our own Citizens.
The American People never wanted "Nafta" yet Clinton pushed it through anyway!
It needed 67 votes in the U.S. Senate to pass (2/3) but only got 61 votes!
What's that tell you?
That border needs to be closed down tighter than a drum. Declare Martial Law and put Troops on it with shoot to kill orders just like we have on S. Korea's border.




popeye:
Please do not try to associate anything I have to say with your mindless bigotry.
thompson


Thompson, "mindless bigotry?"
Explain please.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/9/2007 7:32:15 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kindaeasy69

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Kindaeasy69:
Correct me if I am mistaken but you appear to be a lessezfaire capitalist.  Do you believe in unions or are you against them?
thompson


thompsonx,
I just wanted to have a spirited theoretical debate; I really didn’t want to make things personal.  Hell for all I know we may agree with each other and one of us is just playing devils advocate. 

Are my personal views really important to throwing a little logic at your statement?  I didn’t ask if you were a communist or socialist, did I?


kindaeasy69:
I am not interested in debate.  Discussion is what I am interested in.  I tend not to get personal.   If we can define our terms we can discuss.  I am neither communist nor socialist.  I am neither democrat nor republican.  I believe in free enterprise, the constitution and the bill of rights.  I believe in the last 7 of the ten commandments.  If we are going to discuss economics I would like to know your position.  I will answer your questions truthfully and to the best of my ability.
When I say that I am in favor of free enterprise.  Free enterprise is not a situation where management has all the power and labor is relegated to table scraps.  Which is where I see this very familiar arguement going....thus my question about your feellings about unions.  If you believe that labor and  capital are co-equal partners that is one thing but if not then that is just the thinly veiled slavery.
thompson

(in reply to kindaeasy69)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/9/2007 7:35:04 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella
You honestly think a fence is going to secure the border?  I think Stephen Colbert's idea of motes of flaming magma and iron clad crocodiles has both a better chance and is less fanciful.

puella:
The quite simple solution is to arrest the people who employ them and confiscate their property that was paid for by the labor of these migrant slaves.  When people like Wal Mart and tyson food and Swift and Hormel and the rest of these slavers start going to prison and loosing their multi million dollar factories and homes and boats and such then there will be no more illegal immigration and these people will be forced to pay a living wage to american citizens.
thompson


Thompson, you're right on this point.
Big Corporations and businesses have their dicks deep into the ass of this administration.
Everything Bush has done is for them and the American People be damned!
This is GREED on a Biblical scale.
Bush should be impeached for dereliction of duty because of the border/ illegal alien situation alone!
How on earth can *any* country put up with having 12-20 million illegal aliens within it's borders and it's government does nothing but talk?
It's gotten so bad that I don't care if we have jack booted police kicking in doors at 0300 just get these people the (fuck) out!
Our schools, hospitals, courts, jails and other systems are collapsing under their weight. We Citizens pay for those things and illegals come here and steal from us and in the process drive down wages for our own Citizens.
The American People never wanted "Nafta" yet Clinton pushed it through anyway!
It needed 67 votes in the U.S. Senate to pass (2/3) but only got 61 votes!
What's that tell you?
That border needs to be closed down tighter than a drum. Declare Martial Law and put Troops on it with shoot to kill orders just like we have on S. Korea's border.

popeye:
Please do not try to associate anything I have to say with your mindless bigotry.
thompson





You rottten coward-[thompson].  How dare you slam popeye- this man SERVED my country.

Let Mexico build Mexico into a nice place.

Do you realize to add 20 million to the roles of social programs- it will bankrupt the states?  20 million, more- as a citizen- not all are workers. They will collect food stamps, disability, housing, medicaid, welfare.  Hence collapsing those programs for the citezens who built this country.

BTW- pollution is a cost too not figured into goods and services.

I cant believe the ingorance of thompson.

In any event. You ought to thank a veteran.  [popeye]

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/9/2007 7:44:44 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		OK   Here are my thoughts on this thread

1    Illegal aliens are just that - illegal.  This is without regard to country of origin.   I think that most people focus upon Mexicans because they represent the majority of illegals and their proximity.   It is easier to enter the US from Mexico than say the Congo or Germany.

2    Illegal aliens are law breakers.  If they weren't they would be legal aliens and have green cards.  Since the guest worker program was stopped by congress, that option doesn't apply.

3    Law breakers should be hunted down and prosecuted according to the law.   If anyone violates the law, then they are a law breaker.   I am not infavor of plea bargining,   If a person violates a law, then prosecute them to the fullest extent.  If a person violates more than one law in the process, the prosecute them on all the violations.   If the violations cross state/federal boundries then hold multiple trials and prosecute them.

4    And yes I have violated laws and in fact I turned myself in for investigation and those in power did punish me for it.  I felt lucky because I didn't get the maximum, I got the minimum allowed under the law which was non-judicial punishment.  But then sentencing is up to the jurists based upon the evidence, the law, and their intrepretation of those.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/9/2007 8:04:24 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Oh good lord, shall I whip out my ruler and measure your cocks and declare a winner??...  You boys!!! The chest beating is unbearable. 

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/9/2007 8:30:00 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

   Denial is not a river in Egypt, Thom.  You're going to have to do better than that.  If you are going to accuse me of not giving references, at least delete the link when you quote me.  It's an excellent resource, and the dissenting opinions can be fascinating.




WyrdRich:
I ask for a cite and you tell me that it is in one of the suprem court decissions.  You do not know which one but you are sure it is in one of them...when you find it let me know but in the meantime .....
thompson



    No, Thom, I didn't say that.  I said you were welcome to go digging if you have nothing better to do on Friday night.  I indicated that I got there by simply applying a little logic.  We put inmates in various forms of protective custody all the time.  It's no guarantee (consider Jeffrey Dahmer) and prison is a dangerous place, but we make the effort all the time.  It should have been made for this man.

    And Ron, with all due respect, recruiters lie like Bill Clinton on the whorehouse porch.

     

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/9/2007 8:39:44 PM   
kindaeasy69


Posts: 104
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Kindaeasy69:
Correct me if I am mistaken but you appear to be a lessezfaire capitalist.  Do you believe in unions or are you against them?
thompson


Sure I’ll accept the label of Laissez-faire Capitalist.  No I do not believe in Unions.

So can we know focus on your original suggestion of raising the minimum wage to $15/hour?

My questions for you were (I expanded the last one):

So should I take your answer to mean you do realize the cost of many (not just lettuce) good and services would increase dramatically?

And if so, should someone who now makes say $10 an hour, go up to $15 (the new minimum wage) or up to $20 an hour (the same $10/hour increase as the people who now make minimum wage), or $30/hour(300% increase, same % as your increase for minimum wage)?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/9/2007 9:42:25 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		It is my impression, having read the first page, that this hold up was a heist. Those police officers presumably knew that this van with drugs was coming and that the driver was unarmed. Their objective was to murder the driver and to steal the drugs. When the driver escaped, despite having been shot at fifteen times, they realized that they could not make off with the drugs and tried to get out from being suspected by claiming that the driver had a gun.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 4:09:00 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Q#1 If they as is reported turned in the van with the drugs what report went with it. (The shooting maybe?)

The accusation of drug dealer is simple the man had been previously arrested several times for smuggling drugs and had at least the last time fled the country after being arrested and bonding out. ( this was reported a few times including the time when the immunity from prosecution was granted to him for his testamony)

OK So the man is fleeing and running back towards th border and gets shot in the butt, and you want to focus on the idea that they didn't find a gun he says he didn't have. Is there not some reasonable doubt that the man would have/ could have KEPT THE GUN as he ran, as oppose to dropping it? The fact that they didn't find one at the scene holds not factual proof that he didn't have one. And since he "got away" and had an entire country to stash it away in, I'd put little credibility in his not having had one that night, based on the lack of one found at the scene.



(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 6:33:42 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Oh good lord, shall I whip out my ruler and measure your cocks and declare a winner??...  You boys!!! The chest beating is unbearable. 


Puella,  I love you!

(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 6:35:00 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

OK   Here are my thoughts on this thread

1    Illegal aliens are just that - illegal.  This is without regard to country of origin.   I think that most people focus upon Mexicans because they represent the majority of illegals and their proximity.   It is easier to enter the US from Mexico than say the Congo or Germany.

2    Illegal aliens are law breakers.  If they weren't they would be legal aliens and have green cards.  Since the guest worker program was stopped by congress, that option doesn't apply.

3    Law breakers should be hunted down and prosecuted according to the law.   If anyone violates the law, then they are a law breaker.   I am not infavor of plea bargining,   If a person violates a law, then prosecute them to the fullest extent.  If a person violates more than one law in the process, the prosecute them on all the violations.   If the violations cross state/federal boundries then hold multiple trials and prosecute them.

4    And yes I have violated laws and in fact I turned myself in for investigation and those in power did punish me for it.  I felt lucky because I didn't get the maximum, I got the minimum allowed under the law which was non-judicial punishment.  But then sentencing is up to the jurists based upon the evidence, the law, and their intrepretation of those.


A cogent and rational post- well written!  :-)

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 6:39:10 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Q#1 If they as is reported turned in the van with the drugs what report went with it. (The shooting maybe?)

The accusation of drug dealer is simple the man had been previously arrested several times for smuggling drugs and had at least the last time fled the country after being arrested and bonding out. ( this was reported a few times including the time when the immunity from prosecution was granted to him for his testamony)

OK So the man is fleeing and running back towards th border and gets shot in the butt, and you want to focus on the idea that they didn't find a gun he says he didn't have. Is there not some reasonable doubt that the man would have/ could have KEPT THE GUN as he ran, as oppose to dropping it? The fact that they didn't find one at the scene holds not factual proof that he didn't have one. And since he "got away" and had an entire country to stash it away in, I'd put little credibility in his not having had one that night, based on the lack of one found at the scene.


Archer- apparantly you have been following the story- which is more the the OP [me] posted, which turned teh OP inti a multidementional post.

Your post is informed, and well thought out.


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 7:12:43 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


3 Law breakers should be hunted down and prosecuted according to the law.


So you supoort the indictment and trial of George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, et. al. for violations of 18 USC 371, then?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/10/2007 7:13:09 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 7:43:29 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


3 Law breakers should be hunted down and prosecuted according to the law.


So you supoort the indictment and trial of George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, et. al. for violations of 18 USC 371, then?



1.  Said persons "should" be reviewed by International court for war crimes. It wont happen, as the US is the big kid on the block. [with an arsenal of lawyers]

2. One of the said persons, should be charged with treason. Reason being that the treasury of the US has been plunderred via fraud. [to transfer wealth to big oil, big corps, and the war machine]
Will this happen?     Dont held your breath.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 10:02:19 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


3 Law breakers should be hunted down and prosecuted according to the law.


So you supoort the indictment and trial of George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, et. al. for violations of 18 USC 371, then?



1. Said persons "should" be reviewed by International court for war crimes. It wont happen, as the US is the big kid on the block. [with an arsenal of lawyers]


Why bother with an International Court for violation of Federal Law?

That's what US District Courts are for.


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 10:12:18 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		It amazes me popeye, how you can be so insensitive towards so many American citizens. I can only conclude that you want, what you want ... even if it forces other citizens into poverty.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 10:26:50 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

It amazes me popeye, how you can be so insensitive towards so many American citizens. I can only conclude that you want, what you want ... even if it forces other citizens into poverty.


Caitlyn, explain that please.
I don't understand why my wanting our laws that are already on the books and which the Bush Administration is *ignoring* could be misconstrued as "insensitive."
Don't you think that the Bush Administration is impoverishing many American working people by cow-towing to big corporations and businesses that want cheap illegal labor?
I know you're from Texas and all but Bush is no friend to working people in this country.
Let those business owners go back to driving Cadillacs instead of Mercedes Benz's, poor babies!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 2/10/2007 10:33:47 AM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 11:20:13 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		We have been over this again, and again popeye. It wouldn't be rich people that suffer. Rich people never suffer.
 
This is a state-by-state problem. What California needs, would bankrupt south Texas. What Texas needs, would keep California on the track that will strangle it's healthcare system.
 
There are very few issues, where I agree with the President ... VERY few  ... but the guest worker program is one. Blaming the Bush admninistration is hypocritical. President Bush tried to put in a plan that would give each state the right to apply laws that will help them as they see fit. That plan was killed by unyielding people, that are unwilling to compromise.
 
If you want to find blame for these problems, look in the mirror.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 12:08:23 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

We have been over this again, and again popeye. It wouldn't be rich people that suffer. Rich people never suffer.
 
This is a state-by-state problem. What California needs, would bankrupt south Texas. What Texas needs, would keep California on the track that will strangle it's healthcare system.
 
There are very few issues, where I agree with the President ... VERY few  ... but the guest worker program is one. Blaming the Bush admninistration is hypocritical. President Bush tried to put in a plan that would give each state the right to apply laws that will help them as they see fit. That plan was killed by unyielding people, that are unwilling to compromise.
 
If you want to find blame for these problems, look in the mirror.


Caitlyn, it's not that much of a "problem."
Labor accounts for only 8% of the cost of produce.
Most illegals are earning $10-$12 per hour in that industry.
If they used Americans and doubled their wages to $20-$24 per hour how many pennies would that add to a head of lettuce for example as everyone likes to use "lettuce" as an example.
Maybe 10 to 12 cents?
The real big costs cme from that laborer and his family who sneaks in with him.
Schools, medical, dental, courts, jails, and all the other things.
Do you think that his employer is going to pick up the tab for all that?
No, of course not, they expect you and I to pay for all that so that they can continue to make a killing!
And why should that employer pay a Legal American Citizen $25 an hour plus benefits when he can pay an illegal $12 an hour with no benefits?
Most growers do extremely well for themselves financially! If they didn't why would they be in that business anyway?
So, they continue to break our laws and expect Taxpayers to subsidise their lifestyle.
As we discussed before any "worker program" would have to be very carefully crafted so as not to put any unessessary costs on the backs of the Taxpayers but totally on the backs of the employers.
They've been getting a free ride while breaking our laws for way too long.
If they had their way they'd bring back slavery to this country.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: mad as HELL, illegals- fuming mad here! - 2/10/2007 12:10:39 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		You rottten coward-[thompson].  How dare you slam popeye- this man SERVED my country.

Let Mexico build Mexico into a nice place.

Do you realize to add 20 million to the roles of social programs- it will bankrupt the states?  20 million, more- as a citizen- not all are workers. They will collect food stamps, disability, housing, medicaid, welfare.  Hence collapsing those programs for the citezens who built this country.

BTW- pollution is a cost too not figured into goods and services.

I cant believe the ingorance of thompson.

In any event. You ought to thank a veteran.  [popeye]

===================================================

pahunkboy:
I am not sure how you equate popeye being in the service with some special position where he is not allowed to be challanged for his posts.  I believe popeye has stated he was in the navy (which is part of the department of defence) and the coast guard (which was at his time of service part of the department of transportation).  Being in the service does not give anyone the aflatus to speak "ex cathedra".   
I too was in the military but you seem to have no compunction about calling me a coward.
Your reference to mexicans seems to indicate that your desire for law and order is not so much directed at all illegal behaviour but against a particular group which would seem to put you in the class of biggots.  Perhaps you might tell me just where you got the figure of 20 million?  What sort of divine inspiration has made you aware of just how many of that mystical 20 million will be on welfare?  If they are not on welfare now. what would lead you to believe that they would be on welfare if given citizenship?  While you are at it perhaps you might tell me when I have advocated giving citizenship to anyone who was not born here....please do not put words in my mouth that I have not spoken.
I have no desire or reason to thank any veteran...what is it exactly that I should be thanked for?
thompson

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 60
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