quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

We have been over this again, and again popeye. It wouldn't be rich people that suffer. Rich people never suffer.
 
This is a state-by-state problem. What California needs, would bankrupt south Texas. What Texas needs, would keep California on the track that will strangle it's healthcare system.
 
There are very few issues, where I agree with the President ... VERY few  ... but the guest worker program is one. Blaming the Bush admninistration is hypocritical. President Bush tried to put in a plan that would give each state the right to apply laws that will help them as they see fit. That plan was killed by unyielding people, that are unwilling to compromise.
 
If you want to find blame for these problems, look in the mirror.

Caitlyn, it's not that much of a "problem."
Labor accounts for only 8% of the cost of produce.
Where did you get this figure?

Most illegals are earning $10-$12 per hour in that industry.
Where do you get this figure?



If they used Americans and doubled their wages to $20-$24 per hour how many pennies would that add to a head of lettuce for example as everyone likes to use "lettuce" as an example.
Maybe 10 to 12 cents?
The real big costs cme from that laborer and his family who sneaks in with him.
Schools, medical, dental, courts, jails, and all the other things.
Schools are paid for with property tax...unless you live under a bridge you pay property tax.  The social security taxes FICA and income taxes are withheld from the employees but never remited to the government.  Hardly the fault of the illegal alien.


Do you think that his employer is going to pick up the tab for all that?
No, of course not, they expect you and I to pay for all that so that they can continue to make a killing!
Correct


And why should that employer pay a Legal American Citizen $25 an hour plus benefits when he can pay an illegal $12 an hour with no benefits?
Actually it is closer to $6 because the employer deducts for the barns that they house them in.

Most growers do extremely well for themselves financially! If they didn't why would they be in that business anyway?
So, they continue to break our laws and expect Taxpayers to subsidise their lifestyle.
As we discussed before any "worker program" would have to be very carefully crafted so as not to put any unessessary costs on the backs of the Taxpayers but totally on the backs of the employers.
Why have a guest worker program while there are still unemployed americans?


They've been getting a free ride while breaking our laws for way too long.
If they had their way they'd bring back slavery to this country.
Actually employing illegal aliens is chaeper than slavery.
thompson

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ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

  Denial is not a river in Egypt, Thom.  You're going to have to do better than that.  If you are going to accuse me of not giving references, at least delete the link when you quote me.  It's an excellent resource, and the dissenting opinions can be fascinating.

WyrdRich:
I ask for a cite and you tell me that it is in one of the suprem court decissions.  You do not know which one but you are sure it is in one of them...when you find it let me know but in the meantime .....
thompson

   No, Thom, I didn't say that.  I said you were welcome to go digging if you have nothing better to do on Friday night.  I indicated that I got there by simply applying a little logic.  We put inmates in various forms of protective custody all the time.  It's no guarantee (consider Jeffrey Dahmer) and prison is a dangerous place, but we make the effort all the time.  It should have been made for this man.

   And Ron, with all due respect, recruiters lie like Bill Clinton on the whorehouse porch.

    

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ORIGINAL: puella

Oh good lord, shall I whip out my ruler and measure your cocks and declare a winner??...  You boys!!! The chest beating is unbearable. 

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ORIGINAL: kindaeasy69

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Kindaeasy69:
Correct me if I am mistaken but you appear to be a lessezfaire capitalist.  Do you believe in unions or are you against them?
thompson

Sure I’ll accept the label of Laissez-faire Capitalist.  No I do not believe in Unions.

So can we know focus on your original suggestion of raising the minimum wage to $15/hour?

My questions for you were (I expanded the last one):

So should I take your answer to mean you do realize the cost of many (not just lettuce) good and services would increase dramatically?

And if so, should someone who now makes say $10 an hour, go up to $15 (the new minimum wage) or up to $20 an hour (the same $10/hour increase as the people who now make minimum wage), or $30/hour(300% increase, same % as your increase for minimum wage)?

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ORIGINAL: Archer

Q#1 If they as is reported turned in the van with the drugs what report went with it. (The shooting maybe?)

The accusation of drug dealer is simple the man had been previously arrested several times for smuggling drugs and had at least the last time fled the country after being arrested and bonding out. ( this was reported a few times including the time when the immunity from prosecution was granted to him for his testamony)

OK So the man is fleeing and running back towards th border and gets shot in the butt, and you want to focus on the idea that they didn't find a gun he says he didn't have. Is there not some reasonable doubt that the man would have/ could have KEPT THE GUN as he ran, as oppose to dropping it? The fact that they didn't find one at the scene holds not factual proof that he didn't have one. And since he "got away" and had an entire country to stash it away in, I'd put little credibility in his not having had one that night, based on the lack of one found at the scene.

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

General response ...

Based on some of the comments here, I think perhaps people have not actually read the President's proposal.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040107-3.html

Please note that this is not:

... an amnesty program
... an immigration program
... a way to kick American citizens out of their job
... a permanent worker program
... a way to get the families of the workers over here
... a citizenship program
... a free ride for employers

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ORIGINAL: puella

Hehe, tompson

I can assure it is far less fun than it sounds.. I do not keep a tape measure in my mouth! 

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
kindaeasy69:
It is clear that you prefer an uneven playing field.  As long as labor is relegated to a subservient position vis-a-vis capital.  Without equity then all capital has to do is close the factory doors and sit back and wait until labor is hungry enough to work for what ever capital wishes to pay.  The arguement that capital will just rachet up the cost of goods and services to cover the increase in pay is simply sidesteping the issue.
Why is it right for capital to organize into a unified front but labor should not?
thompson

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You rottten coward-[thompson].  How dare you slam popeye- this man SERVED my country.

Let Mexico build Mexico into a nice place.

Do you realize to add 20 million to the roles of social programs- it will bankrupt the states?  20 million, more- as a citizen- not all are workers. They will collect food stamps, disability, housing, medicaid, welfare.  Hence collapsing those programs for the citezens who built this country.

BTW- pollution is a cost too not figured into goods and services.

I cant believe the ingorance of thompson.

In any event. You ought to thank a veteran.  [popeye]

===================================================

pahunkboy:
I am not sure how you equate popeye being in the service with some special position where he is not allowed to be challanged for his posts.  I believe popeye has stated he was in the navy (which is part of the department of defence) and the coast guard (which was at his time of service part of the department of transportation).  Being in the service does not give anyone the aflatus to speak "ex cathedra".   
I too was in the military but you seem to have no compunction about calling me a coward.
Your reference to mexicans seems to indicate that your desire for law and order is not so much directed at all illegal behaviour but against a particular group which would seem to put you in the class of biggots.  Perhaps you might tell me just where you got the figure of 20 million?  What sort of divine inspiration has made you aware of just how many of that mystical 20 million will be on welfare?  If they are not on welfare now. what would lead you to believe that they would be on welfare if given citizenship?  While you are at it perhaps you might tell me when I have advocated giving citizenship to anyone who was not born here....please do not put words in my mouth that I have not spoken.
I have no desire or reason to thank any veteran...what is it exactly that I should be thanked for?
thompson

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ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You rottten coward-[thompson].  How dare you slam popeye- this man SERVED my country.

Let Mexico build Mexico into a nice place.

Do you realize to add 20 million to the roles of social programs- it will bankrupt the states?  20 million, more- as a citizen- not all are workers. They will collect food stamps, disability, housing, medicaid, welfare.  Hence collapsing those programs for the citezens who built this country.

BTW- pollution is a cost too not figured into goods and services.

I cant believe the ingorance of thompson.

In any event. You ought to thank a veteran.  [popeye]

===================================================

pahunkboy:
I am not sure how you equate popeye being in the service with some special position where he is not allowed to be challanged for his posts.  I believe popeye has stated he was in the navy (which is part of the department of defence) and the coast guard (which was at his time of service part of the department of transportation).  Being in the service does not give anyone the aflatus to speak "ex cathedra".   
I too was in the military but you seem to have no compunction about calling me a coward.
Your reference to mexicans seems to indicate that your desire for law and order is not so much directed at all illegal behaviour but against a particular group which would seem to put you in the class of biggots.  Perhaps you might tell me just where you got the figure of 20 million?  What sort of divine inspiration has made you aware of just how many of that mystical 20 million will be on welfare?  If they are not on welfare now. what would lead you to believe that they would be on welfare if given citizenship?  While you are at it perhaps you might tell me when I have advocated giving citizenship to anyone who was not born here....please do not put words in my mouth that I have not spoken.
I have no desire or reason to thank any veteran...what is it exactly that I should be thanked for?
thompson

Dear Thompsonx,

As a veteran I thank you for your service to our country.   I take back my comment calling you a "coward"- thinking on it- it was rude on my behalf- and I apolgise for my rudeness.

apology accepted....in the words of Merriwether Lewis...."we proceed on".

People who are likeminded tend to live in communites like them. I live in a county 99% white. I choose to live here. There are certain expectations in my neighborhood- that regardless of your color- the block as a whole insists that traditional ways continue.

An nonwhite family rented next door. There were numerous persons living there, loud music at late hours, jacked up cars and junkers. People coming and going all the time. In short- this family encroached on teh quiet enjoyment of the block.

Assholes come in all colors...it was not their color that made them act in a less than responsible manner...I am sure you know Poles who are riff-raff.

It bothered me. But I took no action. I also knew Mrs S, and Mrs W, would complain. In a short period of time the family moved out.

I take it this is a euphimism for Mrs.s Smith &Wesson.

Culturally speaking- a was 2 very contrasting cultures- it was uncompatiable for us, and for them.

I love that I can get easy sex from Mexican men. I dont like that in general they dont assimalate into the mainstream. My polish and german kin had to learn to speak english and learn the American way.

Some latinos assimilate and some do not.  To paint them all with the same broad brush does not help to solve the problem.

Now for the OP, may I suggest- that you watch Lou Dobbs on CNN to see what my frame of reference is.

In a way I could be a redneck.

Rednecks do not apologize when they are wrong...that is the purview of a gentleman.
 


NAFTA and globalization is a race to the bottem. The middle class is in peril- much of the global middle class is in peril.

The ruling elite, wealthy 1% call the shots. Set the agenda.  They have no allegiance to all flag or any country. Mark my words.

Based on the FOX, Clearchannel, propaganda machine. The masses are titlalated by anna nicole smith, gay marriage, and banning flg burning.  Distract. Divide.

True

The peasants shall revolt.   You my friend, are not among the ruling 1%, you are a peasant. [just like anyone else on the CM board.]

Looks at the dirt beneath his nails and smiles contentedly.
thompson
The 1% = Master.   99% of us = slaves.

If you think you are not in the 99%, re-evaluate the world around you.

Hugs to you my friend. We shall overcumm.

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ORIGINAL: LadyIce

Those border patrol agents should have been put in protective custody.
It appears they were also framed from what I have read.
I hope the families sue and get millions.

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ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Thompson     I am confused.   Are all those that break the law and come to this country from Mexico Slaves?   What about those that break the law and come from other countries to get here - Are they slaves too?   And if they are slaves we don't have to pay them at all, isn't that correct?   And if we don't have to pay them wouldn't that make the price of goods and services cheaper or do employers raise the prices to compensate for paying nothing (their free ride)?   And this is a right to work state, as others are, so even if you belong to a union the employer can't be compelled to hire you over someone that doesn't belong to the union.  So is your implication that we should force everyone to belong to a union and pay them union scale so the employer can raise the price on his goods and services to compensate for his losses?

Just confused

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Thompson     I am confused.   Are all those that break the law and come to this country from Mexico Slaves?   What about those that break the law and come from other countries to get here - Are they slaves too?   And if they are slaves we don't have to pay them at all, isn't that correct?   And if we don't have to pay them wouldn't that make the price of goods and services cheaper or do employers raise the prices to compensate for paying nothing (their free ride)?   And this is a right to work state, as others are, so even if you belong to a union the employer can't be compelled to hire you over someone that doesn't belong to the union.  So is your implication that we should force everyone to belong to a union and pay them union scale so the employer can raise the price on his goods and services to compensate for his losses?

Just confused

Just confused:
I can understand why you are confused.  Perhaps one day when you learn how to read you may be less confused.  As long as you chose to take a rebarbative attitude and adumbrate my post instead of entering into discussion there is nothing I can do to alleviate your confusion.
thompson