Spotting a Fake Dom

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novicecourtesan -> Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 9:46:24 PM)
I could use some advice on an interesting situation. Before discovering this site, I posted on craigslist. After weeding out the crazies, I came upon a reasonably normal, sane man who was interested in the same things (vanilla and bdsm) and decided to IM, talk on the phone, and meet him, in that order. Our IMs were a bit racy but nothing too bad--after all, I was advertising very specifically. He was much more sexually experienced than I was and had subs before. As usual, I was very specific about what I was looking for. He was very nice, we had chemistry and we started making plans to see each other in a week. I was clear that I wanted a dom/sub relationship in the bedroom (to start), and we decided to leave the details over dinner when we met. He was respectful, promised to go slow and be attentive, and IM'd me constantly--more than I can handle. Our IM's meanwhile, got really racy, and I sent him an incredibly dirty letter listing all the things I wanted him to do to me when we met and individually. I was really excited; I almost felt virginal. Saturday he checks in and asks me to choose a Middle Eastern restaurant. Sunday, attempting to be a good sub, I spent doing my laundry to have appropriate clothes and lingerie, cleaning my room, choosing a restaurant (vegetarian, for him) and waiting. At noon I IM'd, at 5 I texted and at 7, on the advice of a friend, I called. No response all night. Three strikes you're out, right? Was he testing me? I would have been depressed but then I started googling my questions and discovered this site. I suddenly realized I had many, many more options--that what I wanted was out there. (Thanks to this board, in part!). Just as I was chatting with the first person I met here, the would-be dom started IM'ing me as if nothing happened. I ignored him all day (options, people, options!) until the pestering finally got to me and I wrote him back. He had no excuse, and no test. He had gone upstate on saturday and then gotten back on monday. He had no access to email, text or cell. He "asked to make it up to me" but there was no indication that he was sorry, until he realized I was mad and thinking very seriously about not seeing him again. Then he tried to woo me by saying how much he wanted me and thought about my kiss. All sexual. I finally made it clear to him that I had taken that day--and him--really seriously and that didn't trust him and needed to think about seeing him again. He said okay and signed off, but not before sending me some naked pictures of himself. (exhibitionist, not totally my thing) Later, he IM'd me again and said that he had re-read my dirty letter and loved every part of it. I replied in one or two words until he started asking me if I had masturbated for anyone. I told him that I was in no mood for dirty IMs or my talent for writing erotica and that, in wooing me to be his sub, he might think a little less of my talents and more about my needs. He finally apologized profusely and said he was selfish. I told him that I wasn't trying to berate him, just understand whether that was a mistake or a character trait. I told him to perhaps reread my other (non-dirty) emails and see if that was still something he wanted. I know this is very strong-willed for a sub, and it is not my intent to be rebellious. But I have a suspicion that I have found a "Fake Dom." These are men who like to play rough in bed, usually learned from porno movies (professional or homemade) and call it domination. They let the imagination guide them and focus on the sex (and their horniness) rather than on the responsibility and privileges of the power exchange. I'm guessing they are masculine and protective and confident and all the things a sub would be attracted to. But, as someone on this site wrote, a sub is not a doormat. I would like to ad that a sub is not perpetually horny or thinking with his/her crotch. I would like to know: 1. Whether I should meet him again or fish elsewhere for a dom 2. Whether this guy is a dom or not (all opinions welcome) 3. What lessons might I (and other subs) get from the way all this transpired? Any obvious red flags or mistakes on my part? I am a sensitive newbie, so please be kind, but I do want to learn....and not waste time on someone who isn't a true dom. thanks! n.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 9:59:52 PM)
You haven't found a fake dom- you've found a man who identifies himself as a dominant who can't keep dates or is too scared to progress in a relationship right now. In order to identify a fake dom, you'll first have to identify a dom. I'm afraid a person can be a total asshole loser and still be a dominant. I can be a dom and only want to ever have horny hot kinky sex and never expressly show any other signs of traditional dominance...and I'd still be a dom. This really isn't any different than any vanilla situation- would you go out with a guy if he'd blown off a date with you that easily? Forget the labeling- you'll only paint yourself into a corner.

novicecourtesan -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 10:16:38 PM)
that makes sense to me too. I'm not necessarily trying to find the "perfect" dom but I do want someone who is serious. Maybe he's not. But I thought it was interesting because I feel like I've been dating "fake doms" in search of someone really committing to exploring my submission. I really don't want to start anything--and I'm happy to take links--but do many people believe that everyone is submissive or dominant? no vanilla constantly seeking "equality?" just a philosophical aside. edited to put equality in quotes. I am still new to the lingo and offend purely unintentionally.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 10:20:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan I really don't want to start anything--and I'm happy to take links--but do many people believe that everyone is submissive or dominant? no vanilla constantly seeking equality? just a philosophical aside. Sorry, I wasn't trying to suggest that EVERYONE is a dominant. Simply that we can't call someone a "fake" just because they don't fit "good person." A dom can certainly be a loser asshole idiot. That just makes him a BAD dom, not a "fake dom." A vanilla can be a loser asshole idiot, that doesn't make them a "fake vanilla." It makes them a bad person.

novicecourtesan -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 10:26:20 PM)
that makes sense. I guess he just didn't fit into what I thought/wanted a dom to be. If he'd blown me off to test me or my weakness, I would have still been pissed that we didn't discuss this, but I would have understood. But I made it clear that my ideal man would treat me as a lady as well as a whore, and he admitted that he didn't do that. I read some of these posts and there is such intimacy and trust there. I know I am new and starry-eyed but it seems that these relationships can reach intensities that the vanilla relationship can't. I'm not thrilled with offering myself to someone that only says sorry when he realizes that I'm upset. Even afterwards, he was still thinking with his cock. I prefer the blood to flow elsewhere, at least occasionally. And can't he get off the bloody IM! We live about a mile from each other. I love to IM but it is not a substitute for a relationship or actual communication. At least not for me... thanks for reading that loooooooooong post and responding!

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 10:29:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan that makes sense. I guess he just didn't fit into what I thought/wanted a dom to be. If he'd blown me off to test me or my weakness, I would have still been pissed that we didn't discuss this, but I would have understood. But I made it clear that my ideal man would treat me as a lady as well as a whore, and he admitted that he didn't do that. Games are games, and they serve no type of relationship. quote: I read some of these posts and there is such intimacy and trust there. Oh there's plenty of insecurity and crap also. quote: I know I am new and starry-eyed but it seems that these relationships can reach intensities that the vanilla relationship can't. For an individual perhaps they can't. But for a vanilla person, they reach intensities in their relationship that no kinky person would. And trust me, plenty of vanilla relationships are far more secure, honest, loving, healthy and fun than plenty of relationships you'll find here. quote: I'm not thrilled with offering myself to someone that only says sorry when he realizes that I'm upset. Even afterwards, he was still thinking with his cock. I prefer the blood to flow elsewhere, at least occasionally And can't he get off the bloody IM! We live about a mile from each other. I love to IM but it is not a substitute for a relationship or actual communication. At least not for me... thanks for reading that loooooooooong post and responding! You teach people how to treat you. You get to decide exactly what you will settle for.

touchthesky -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 10:34:43 PM)
i run into men like that both on BDSM sites and on myspace where i have a more vanilla incarnation. I find that in alot of internet contacts they really try to hot it up so they can get u in bed immediately,whether Dom or vanilla. That flaky stuff has occured several times and there is always some BS excuse like oh i left my phone at work, thats why i didnt call u or show up. Now i assume that is just BS cause some other offer came thru, but even so it seems stupid. One can always call with an excuse like a sudden family illness if one wants to cancel. pretty much any man and woman i know who deals with the internet runs into those unexplainable flaky contacts and they always say they are going to make it up to u, LOL. Now no matter what i just pass on anyone who does that.

juliaoceania -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 10:35:42 PM)
quote: I know this is very strong-willed for a sub, and it is not my intent to be rebellious. In what way is it strong willed for anyone to stand up for themselves and tell another human being that they have crossed the line one too many times in one too many ways? We are not submissive to everyone, we should only be submissive to people who merit it. And frankly it does not sound as though this person merits any attention. quote: But I have a suspicion that I have found a "Fake Dom." These are men who like to play rough in bed, usually learned from porno movies (professional or homemade) and call it domination. They let the imagination guide them and focus on the sex (and their horniness) rather than on the responsibility and privileges of the power exchange. I'm guessing they are masculine and protective and confident and all the things a sub would be attracted to. But, as someone on this site wrote, a sub is not a doormat. I would like to ad that a sub is not perpetually horny or thinking with his/her crotch You do not know if he is a fake dom or not. I would not worry about trying to define the status of other people's orientations, focus on what you desire, and leave all the others to be whatever they are. Using the term "fake" a lot comes off negative to many people. Just sayin quote: 1. Whether I should meet him again or fish elsewhere for a dom I wouldn't, but if you want to, go for it. You are an attractive enough gal, and you seem bright intellectually. Why bother with him? quote: 2. Whether this guy is a dom or not (all opinions welcome) He sounds like a married dom...lol. At least that would be my reaction to this, especially if he only gave you a cell and not a landline. quote: . What lessons might I (and other subs) get from the way all this transpired? Any obvious red flags or mistakes on my part? I am a sensitive newbie, so please be kind, but I do want to learn....and not waste time on someone who isn't a true dom. Expect nothing from strangers over the internet. Meet before getting too attached. I would not be submissive to someone I had not met. Being submissive does not mean that we have to be submissive to anyone until we have consented to do so. I would go to a munch so you know how real people approach this lifestyle if what you desire is a real relationship with D/s as a core element. just a few ideas

novicecourtesan -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 10:40:21 PM)
all very helpful...thank you. my reasoning for the word "fake" is that he might pose as dom to get submissive women in bed, but has no real interest in my submissiveness. however, it was rightly pointed out that that might be someone's perfect definition of a their ideal dom.

juliaoceania -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 10:50:54 PM)
I once went out with a guy that professed domliness, but we did not have sex. He was not a dom, he was a swinger. He admitted this to me after I told him I was looking for something different. He wanted a submissive type that he could share around. I was not her[:D]. He had no desire to engage in the mental aspects of domination. Now unless this guy outright tells you like the one I dated on one occasion did, you really do not know. People often get their backs up when the word "fake" is uttered, because we have all experienced being on the receiving end. I have gotten emails from people proclaiming me a fake because I would not email them back, or I was not into showing them my webcam, or because I kept my profile up even though I am not seeking. So when a lot of us hear the word "fake" we think of this. I think a good rule of thumb is to take people at face value until you meet them. Also, there is nothing wrong with letting several people court you. As long as you are upfront about it, there is nothing wrong with developing a lot of friendships. I think this is especially true if you are new to all of this. It gives you a wide spectrum of experiences to date a lot of doms, get to know their expectations over time, and see how that feels to you. It is just as important that you are satisfied with it as it is that they are. Just a few more thoughts

touchthesky -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 10:51:36 PM)
in any case it sounds like you do not trust him. Sometimes its hard to let go of something where your initial interaction is deep and intriguing, even when there are red flags. The down side of dating whether M/s or vanilla is when you expend a certain amount of energy connecting and getting to know someone and it can be hard to keep summoning up that fresh energy and hopefulness when you were disappointed the last time. Still. Inconsistancy is a real red flag and a mark of selfishness. That guy is a skank whether Dom or not. The world is full of wolfs in sheeps clothing

obey1 -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 10:56:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan I could use some advice on an interesting situation. it sure is.... Before discovering this site, I posted on craigslist. First comment, I am not an expert on craigslist, but I did sell my van there, look for roomates, and many other miscellaneous fiscal transactions, but I would not use it as a personals site for any reason. Saturday he checks in and asks me to choose a Middle Eastern restaurant. Sunday... No response all night. Checks in where? Near you in a hotel/motel/notell? He had no excuse, and no test. He had gone upstate on saturday and then gotten back on monday. Sounds like he found a few others to explore on Craigslist, more urgent than you. Later, he IM'd me again and said that he had re-read my dirty letter and loved every part of it. Of course, because his first choice didn't work out! I replied in one or two words until he started asking me if I had masturbated for anyone. Like some vile memory of his probably as recent as 24 hours ago. Either he did or they did. It disgusted him or he requested it and there was no compliance, thus, on to choice #2. He finally apologized profusely and said he was selfish. Because he wanted one trip with two sexual encounters and realized "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" I know this is very strong-willed for a sub, and it is not my intent to be rebellious. OK, stop the self-guessing. Protect yourself at all times. Your actions speak intelligence to me, not rebellion or strong-willed. But I have a suspicion that I have found a "Fake Dom." No, you found a pervert. These are men who like to focus on their horniness rather than on the responsibility and privileges of the power exchange. Yes, you got that right. He was focusing on getting two nuts instead of just one and being satisfied with it. He was consolidating his travel finances and had two meetings on a string. I would like to know: 1. Whether I should meet him again or fish elsewhere for a dom Now that you have found this site (and I can send you a large list of others) do not meet him again. I would never use craigslist or kaboo.org or any of the commercial sites where you can advertise a garage sale of items. 2. Whether this guy is a dom or not (all opinions welcome) No, he was taking advantage of you. Had you met him you would have had a horrible experience. You bared your soul all too quickly. He manipulated that to get what he wanted. I do not feel that is a respectable quality in someone who calls themself a Dom. Child predation is a better term. 3. What lessons might I (and other subs) get from the way all this transpired? Don't use craigslist. Don't mismatch your feelings without reciprocity. Don't repeat your mistakes to see if it was just a fluke. Any obvious red flags or mistakes on my part? How about blue flags? LOL. No mistakes, just inexperience. The obvious red flag was loss of availability on a first meeting. As it has been said before, like a normal vanilla date, it demonstrates an initial level of responsibility that should you finally agree to, it will always be there and never improve. You accept either the best or you pay for the worst. I am a sensitive newbie, so please be kind, but I do want to learn....and not waste time on someone who isn't a true dom. Don't use the words "true dom" around here or you'll get your head blown off. There is no such thing. There are only elements of a certain individual reality that snookers us all into a community where we can go 'round and 'round talking about word definitions and WIITWD. In a general sense, if you had met him and he performed WIITWD and called it BDSM or made you call him a dom or master, you would have been victim to that behavior. WIITWD is an acronym for anything goes. It is judgement free unless there is assault charges pending. You could have been raped at your first meeting and even though he would have went before the judge (if you had enough info for the law to find him) his defense would have been that he understood the meeting to be consensual, and his attorneys would have had all of your emails. You are running when you should be jogging or walking. Slow down a bit and put your urges on hold for a while. Get to learn us and at least one other community such as the UK. www.wipipedia.org I am providing links for your internet research. You will have enough information afterwards to decide WIITyou want to do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:BDSM Lovely N. Obey1

obis -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 11:17:18 PM)
You're in NYC, there's no reason whatsoever that you should put up with behavior like this. He was rude and inconsiderate before he even met you, when he was pretty sure he was going to get laid, and didn't even apologize! -- that's not the sign of someone who will treat you well 5 years from now when you're emotionally committed. A bright, attractive and confident sub female will be able to find a MUCH better guy in NYC, i spent my first 5 years as a dom living there and saw plenty of flakiness on all sides but also some of the most wonderful people I've ever known.

obey1 -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/12/2007 11:47:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan I feel like I've been dating "fake doms" in search of someone really committing to exploring my submission. That is astounding given you live in NYC. Maybe all the Doms are in Manhattan. do many people believe that everyone is submissive or dominant? no vanilla constantly seeking "equality?" just a philosophical aside. No, I do not believe that everyone is either/or. It has been argued on other threads that much of our personalities comes from our socialization and that gives us certain qualities, but there are for example many women who are THE dominant at work (the boss) who seek the submissive side for fulfilment. I could write for a few pages on that one, but suffice it to say that most people have both qualities in any given social scenario. What it comes down to is BDSM (this forum) where it becomes a sole expression of how you would like relations in the sexual world. Maybe physical is a better way of describing it. In a D/s relationship dynamic, many would argue that there needs to be no corporal punishment (CP) or any sexual element whatsoever. It may be true for them but it smells to me of vanilla... They just want someone to tell what to do, or be told what to do. I think that they deny the secret aspects of their relationship to argue here at the forum. At work if it became too intesne we have the EOE/sexual harrassment laws that would take care of them in short haste. So they say there is no CP or sexual element but in truth they are hiding their form of it from us. Even in a 50's household there was sex. Thomas Jefferson is 'rumoured' to have fathered children from a slave....alot is ingrained and not recognized. I have modeled certain submissive qualities in my life in my search to determine the polarity of my psyche. The best I can come up with is that I would always top from the bottom, or it is a no-go. I am not submissive. I have too much to say and am too opinionated with aspects of my own morality and intelligence. Therefore I am most comfortable with being a Dom and would not consider even switch affairs as it is too open to interpretation. My element of arousal (outside of work and social/family life) is that I recieve great satisfaction from being in control of my environment. I am not a control freak nor OCD, but emprically I am very aware of my determination to have the final say in all matters as it relates to my emotional or physical well-being. I have offended family members when their urge to one-up me has disintegrated into their own humiliation. They did not ask for it except that they took a question beyond the second rational explanation for it and still insisted that I was in error. In vanilla relationships there is alot more give and take. The sitcom on Monday nights now with David Spade shows a 10 year married relationship, an engaged relationship, and their very frisky single friend. The contrasts are what TV is showing nowdays. In a D/s or M/s or BDSM relationship the roles are a 'little' more clearly defined where people can explore that side of them, recieve some pain and pleasure, and seek to play another day. I have made certain points that alot of the BDSM society that we now posess has been only recently developed with "The Story of O", Dungeons & Dragons, and the long line into the past of at worst, Hitler's treatment of the holocaust women, shaving their heads and raping them, to the Spanish Inquisition of torturing people based on what they believe and also for fun, to the best of the Christian Bible where society all played out with commonly accepted norms of a woman's submission to her husband. It was again modeled in the US throughout the 1950's and beyond, and still a remnant exists today. But now we have the G/L debate. Sexuality is now becoming a casualty to the normal power exchange. I don't care where I stick my tongue, as long as there is someone out there who lets me stick it there. There are all kinds and forms of sexuality vanilla style and also that component bleeding into the BDSM specialty niche. So yes, no. On any given day you could assign a certain personality profile or test to a random selection of human beings and probably identify certain individuals as expressing overwhelmingly dominant and submissive themes in their lives, "ripe for the pickingssssszzz". But first someone has to actually come clean out of the closet if they seek to choose from the base group that sticks up their finger to society and says "I don't care what you think" and proceeds to actively seek out like-minded individuals such as they. And then there is the internet advertisement. We are here forming a community of people from across the world, not because we are bored, not because we are desperate, but because we all agree that this aspect of enjoyment should be talked about, and ultimately put on display. In this community, we do not accept dominance or submissiveness in external forced social relationships. We talk about OUR desires in another sense to say that this is "our druthers". The normal play dynamic within society does not allow us to be completely satisfied, even if we would like to completely submit or beat beat beat someone senseless for their lack of respect or obedience. We are just not that way here.

CrazyC -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/13/2007 2:16:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan I could use some advice on an interesting situation. I would like to know: 1. Whether I should meet him again or fish elsewhere for a dom My answer would be no. After realizing he is a slacker, i wouldn't be able to trust his word. The fact that he didn't call you to let you know what was going on is also grounds for really not trusting him. 2. Whether this guy is a dom or not (all opinions welcome) I agree with what LA said. He is still probably a Dom, just got issues. But then again, he could just be a wanker. 3. What lessons might I (and other subs) get from the way all this transpired? Any obvious red flags or mistakes on my part? Good things you have done....looked around and realized there are others who are probably more reliable. Red flags....alot a talk of sex in detale with a man you haven't met face to face. Then he doesn't show up without even the curtucy of saying sorry there have been a change of plans. It is th twentieth centry and cell phones, he could have called, emailed you, or text you. Did he ever say why he needed to take a last minute trip?

happypervert -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/13/2007 5:23:43 AM)
quote: If he'd blown me off to test me or my weakness, Don't make excuses for him -- instead of blowing you off, a normal guy would show up so you could blow him, or at least let you know ahead of time that something came up to reschedule a time to meet and molest you. quote: And can't he get off the bloody IM! My guess is his wife (or maybe his momma) won't let him out of the house, so he sits at the computer jerking off to your steamy notes. You've already wasted too much time on this clown; forget him and move on.

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/13/2007 5:34:05 AM)
My quick 2 cents. If he were serious about being interested, then making a first impression by "forgetting" your date was not the way to do it. It isnt a test, its a screw up. For this guy, it might all be a very big fantasy. He disappears when it threatens to be come real, and would ikey do the same thing a second time. I would never meet someone for a second try if the first one was cancelled under those circumstances. There isnt enough in the world they could do to change my mind on that. Red flags are subjective. From what you told us, I didnt see any, but we also didnt read all the steamy IMs. We dont know if you and he were ona set schedule to message, which often indicates finding a time when he wont get caught going behind someones back. Thinking strictly sexually doesnt flag, after all thats what you were interested in. Most of the flags didnt show up until the day you were supposed to meet. Not all dominants have their heads screwed on right. Some dont put others needs in mind at all, and center on themselves, which might eb fine later, but not right off. Others dont exactly know how to progress from fantasy to reality and it causes headaches. Some are wonderful, and get everything right. Keep looking, youll get samples of al of them, and then some. DV

SimplyMichael -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/13/2007 5:35:22 AM)
One rarely starts out being a good dom, I sure as hell didn't and I am far from perfect now. THAT is why some of us don't love the whole "fake/true" dom thing. If you live in some backwater, I might suggest you give the jerk a second chance and see if you can't train him to be a better human being but you live in NY, home to the oldest BDSM group in the US. You are young and attractive and seem intelligent and articulate, you shouldn't have any problem finding some very talented people to at least play and hopefully move beyond that. www.tes.org is a good place to start but as many have said I would slow down first. There are some very amazing people on this site who you can learn from, do just that. I would highly recomend you pick up a copy of these books: The Bottoming Book The Topping Book Consensual Sadomasochism Read those three, especially the first two and you will greatly expand your knowledge. They are written from a San Francisco perspective which may differ a bit from what you will run into in NY but valuable regardless. Consensual Sadomasochism may or may not go over your head at the moment but is a great book on the mental aspects of all this.

toservez -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/13/2007 7:20:46 AM)
I agree with others here, his actions do not constitute being a fake but do question his character and sincerity. When looking, finding and interacting with someone you are interested in this life from both sides it still very much just like a regular relationship. Character, commitment, and every other thing that attracts or repels us cannot or should not be excluded in our evaluation of the other just because they are either dominant or submissive. The OP uses the word “fake” like most do now. Most people when they still read or hear the word fake think “fraud” but the word has been used so often by people for doing something I did not like or just a generic put down like “loser” that encompasses fraud that I think the word has been forever changed. Since probably every one here multiple times has been called a fake, the word always draws a strong reaction because most of us still filter through the fraud definition instead of the broader term.

novicecourtesan -> RE: Spotting a Fake Dom (2/13/2007 7:26:53 AM)
Hi all... thanks so much for all the good advice! I think I just needed more perspective on the situation. He is a very nice guy, but he is not serious or reliable. Suddenly those things matter so much more to me than they did in the vanilla dating world. As for "true dom" or "fake dom," I withdraw the whole thing in fear of a huge semantic debate. As I've said before, the vocabulary is as new to me as everything else. I just thought he might be going through the motions for sex, but he could equally be sincere and just useless. Thank goodness for these message boards!

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