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RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 9:10:19 AM

stef

Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

I think these questions bring some very real issues into the spot light and I'm glad he asked them.

That's nice.

quote:

There are people that really do believe that they "need" to be badly abused as often as possible. Whether it's an addictive personality trait or mental illness is beyond me... but worth a little discussion.

Perhaps, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the questions he asked.

quote:

Personal attacks are so ugly.... don't you think?

They can be. But then again, so can intellectual mediocrity and those who support it.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 41

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 9:25:45 AM

MaryT

Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69
Questions are posted to evoke a thought process

Actually, questions are usually asked by people seeking answers, but in response to your evasively passive statement: I assume you were looking to evoke a thought process in yourself?

quote:

and a socratic debate.

Socrates always had a point.

< Message edited by MaryT -- 2/14/2007 9:26:11 AM >

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 42

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 9:26:36 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
They can be. But then again, so can intellectual mediocrity and those who support it.

Sometimes peoples attacks are more like a tabloid

So, if you are going to get a tabloid, get the National Enquirer, because at least they have a horoscope. Why read personal attacks here when you can get a more professional job done and a horoscope with the National Enquirer?

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 43

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 9:27:29 AM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a submissive to a hospital for care for what was adminsistered in a session even though it was within the submissive's consent and limits?

This implies that said "injury" is what the submissive wants, granted it's vague, but like I said, I've known a few that seek injury but not necessarily the cure... that makes it a very legit question... Does the dominant go against what the submissive says they want and seek medical attention?

And even if it has nothing to do with whether or not the sub in question doesn't want the medical attention... if it was negotiated and agreed upon but afterwards the dominant felt they needed medical care... should he do it? Again... legit question.

Put in context with all of the other questions I see the sense in asking... if a submissive said they want to be beat till they are literally black and blue (and don't pretend that never happens) and afterwards the bruising causes serious concern to the dominant... should they take the beaten and bruised sub to the hospital? I mean, the sub wanted that, got that and is fine with it.

I absolutely agree that there are no stupid questions, only questions that are asked to late... and I'll go a step further and add to that... there are lots of stupid answers.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 44

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 9:28:31 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Well I realize accidents can happen, and if it was accidental, then I think I might be afraid of him, but not maybe angry.

If this was intentional - then I think it's not only wrong, but - my family is chock full of lawyers, and he'd probably be meeting some of them. Also, he'd never see me again - "within limits" or not.

For one thing - I can't ever see myself agreeing to anything that would be almost certain to put me in a hospital. For another thing, if I did agree, I'd expect my Dominant to over-ride my agreement to it, for my own good. If this makes me "not a true submissive", then so be it.

Under any circumstances: If the submissive is injured - then OF COURSE (IMO) the Dominant should take her to a hospital - regardless of her "wishes". To me, it's simple common sense (but I think it's a decent question - because there are actually people who might not know what to do in a case like this, sad as that might be to think about. Either they'd be intimidated by possible police action, or be stupid enough to "honor" their submissive's wishes).

I realize there are folks who would disagree with this, but you did ask for opinions, and that's mine (and it's not changing).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/14/2007 9:40:17 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 45

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 9:28:52 AM

asubmissiveheart

Posts: 462
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline

Which again basically means, if the submissive needs to go to the hospital-take them.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 46

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 9:39:59 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: asubmissiveheart

Which again basically means, if the submissive needs to go to the hospital-take them.

Very f\good

That was never the issue.

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to asubmissiveheart)

Post #: 47

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 9:54:28 AM

justinasamerk

Posts: 153
Joined: 8/1/2006
Status: offline

greetings Sir Discipliner...

1)Yes a dominant would be right to take a submissive to a hospital if medical treatment is necessary. Accidents do happen, things happen, there are times where not even the best dominants can understand what is internally going on....
The question really is, did the dominant intentionally cause that amount of damange that would cause the submissive to go to the hospital for the sheer fact that level of pain, dominance and abuse pleased him...then a girl would say the dominant would be wrong.
2)would it be an abuse of trust and responsibility...-no, but she thinks it depends on the situation. For example there was a time a girl practically passed out in her dominants arms when he tied her hands over her head. If he left her there and refused to help her out to the point she actually did pass out then yes, a girl would have felt a betrayal of trust and responsibility. But accidents do happen aswell....One time tied a belt around her neck in a choking fashion and well a little too tight that capillaries broke all over her face and she looked like she had spider veins all over her face for 3 days...that was an accident...she was fine.
3)Perception is reality...however your percieve something is your own reality unless it turns over to a legal battle where you don't even have the right to perceive it... In other words if you knock the shit out of your submissive in an agressive punching slapping black and blue all over the face, ends up getting a concussion, the police step in they are immediately going to say Assault. no matter how much a submissive cries love, devotion he ismy Master...they are arresting you with assault.
4)Disciplining on a regular basis...wow good question...i think it can be in some instances co enabling on both sides....the submissive satisfying her own needs of discipline..maybe requiring that constant "feeling on the cross" mode, and she caters to the power control discipline side of the dominant. The "whip in hand" mentality.

As far as question..Sir Discipliner...love the questions, in my book please continue think society would do more learning, sharing, and intellectual debates if they did the socratic method....a girl is curious though on what your take is on many of these questions you ask to others....

take care,
justina, the sweet potato

PS-why do many of your post say awaiting approval??? approval for what?

< Message edited by justinasamerk -- 2/14/2007 9:57:18 AM >

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 48

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 9:55:08 AM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: asubmissiveheart

Which again basically means, if the submissive needs to go to the hospital-take them.

Define "needs". You can't drag me to a hospital with anything short of a bone sticking out of the skin. And that's coming from the adult, able to make my own decisions, human being. Dominance and submission have nothing to do with it. In the same respect I know of people that run to the emergency room damn near every time they sneeze.. So, define "needs" to go... wouldn't it take a medical professional to be able to do that? If my neighbor was a doctor and said yes, they need to go to the hospital then yeah... let's go... But to say if they need to go then take them... that's saying they should make a medical diagnosis that the person in question needs care from hospital staff. How about we look at it realistically... No one can tell me that they have NEVER, at any point in their lives, wondered if a trip to the hospital was a good idea and asked a friend for an opinion... or better yet, called the emergency room and asked them? Just because someone identifies as a dominant does not mean they have all the answers. Particularly when the person they are wondering about doesn't see it as a necessary step.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to asubmissiveheart)

Post #: 49

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 10:08:05 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline

Yes of course its the dom responsibilty to get her/him the care they need,A slave I used to own is now owned by another and last year after rought anal sex he refused to take her to the ER, she had to drag herself into a cab go to the hospital for care after 20 stiches and 2 day of care she was released...needless to say she moved on soon after that.Some doms just don't give a shit about their property they continue to take until there is nothing there to take..BH

_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 50

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 10:15:20 AM

nephandi

Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

That is horrible Sir, just horrible. But yes i agree, if somone have given their all to another person, it is that person`s responsibility thy get all the medical care they need, that is the only responsible thing to do.

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 51

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 10:24:40 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: justinasamerk

greetings Sir Discipliner...

Greeting sweet potato

1)Yes a dominant would be right to take a submissive to a hospital if medical treatment is necessary. Accidents do happen, things happen, there are times where not even the best dominants can understand what is internally going on....

Having the question taking another perception as I explained a bit more clearly earlier.. lets follow it going this way...

I believe it is the responsibility of the Dominant to take the the injured submissive to the hospital and worry about ramifications later....reminds Me of the movie Sidetracked ....

The question really is, did the dominant intentionally cause that amount of damange that would cause the submissive to go to the hospital

It might be debated that the intention was to push the envelope of the submissive. By the way..before people read more into this than is there this has not happened to Me or a friend.

for the sheer fact that level of pain, dominance and abuse pleased him...then a girl would say the dominant would be wrong.

But if it were within consent of the agrangements?

2)would it be an abuse of trust and responsibility...-no, but she thinks it depends on the situation. For example there was a time a girl practically passed out in her dominants arms when he tied her hands over her head. If he left her there and refused to help her out to the point she actually did pass out then yes, a girl would have felt a betrayal of trust and responsibility. But accidents do happen aswell....One time tied a belt around her neck in a choking fashion and well a little too tight that capillaries broke all over her face and she looked like she had spider veins all over her face for 3 days...that was an accident...she was fine.

Wow...glad he was watching and did not leave the room. I always have parimedic shears that I have used and will not hesitate to use on rope or leather cuffs if I deem the submissive is in trouble.

3)Perception is reality...however your percieve something is your own reality unless it turns over to a legal battle where you don't even have the right to perceive it... In other words if you knock the shit out of your submissive in an agressive punching slapping black and blue all over the face, ends up getting a concussion, the police step in they are immediately going to say Assault. no matter how much a submissive cries love, devotion he ismy Master...they are arresting you with assault.

Yes sometimes things change during or after play that the submissive realizes they are over their head either physically or emotionally...then try to do back peddling later after the session denying it...sad but true....

4)Disciplining on a regular basis...wow good question...i think it can be in some instances co enabling on both sides....the submissive satisfying her own needs of discipline..maybe requiring that constant "feeling on the cross" mode, and she caters to the power control discipline side of the dominant. The "whip in hand" mentality.

Some are needy and it is an addiction of sorts in My opinion. Then there is the debate of who really is in charge.

As far as question..Sir Discipliner...love the questions, in my book please continue think society would do more learning, sharing, and intellectual debates if they did the socratic method....a girl is curious though on what your take is on many of these questions you ask to others....

Thank you..you made My day...thank you for thinking and sharing

take care,
justina, the sweet potato

PS-why do many of your post say awaiting approval??? approval for what?

We all seek approval of some sort don't We?

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to justinasamerk)

Post #: 52

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 10:28:04 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

Yes of course its the dom responsibilty to get her/him the care they need,A slave I used to own is now owned by another and last year after rought anal sex he refused to take her to the ER, she had to drag herself into a cab go to the hospital for care after 20 stiches and 2 day of care she was released...needless to say she moved on soon after that.Some doms just don't give a shit about their property they continue to take until there is nothing there to take..BH

That is just immoral in My opinion.

Having been in a motorcycle accident with a woman I was riding with I insisted she go to hospital as she was in shock.

She later complained we should of just had rough sex and be done with it.

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 53

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 10:28:09 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69

quote:

ORIGINAL: stefIntelligent questions evoke discussion. Asking if you should take an injured person to the hospital for medical care that you are unable to provide yourself is not an intelligent question.

you have percieved the question differently than it was intended.

Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a submissive to a hospital for care for what was adminsistered in a session even though it was within the submissive's consent and limits?

Let Me put it another way..

Would a dominant be ethically, morally right if the session trancended into something that physically hurt the submissive to the point where it was needed for a hospital trip, even though it was within the agreed upon consenting limits?

When does an arrangement cross the grey area into that of black and white.

A dying submissive wishes to enact a snuff scene...some would define it being rather black and white while others might favor a more philisophical approach....then there is the legal, religious and moral dilema.

A situation where the submissive wishes the dominant to severely beat her as she feels she needs it and wishes to suffer for whatever personal, physical, emotional needs she may have still might be deined as a responsibilit of the dominant to know when enough is enough.

It is a given that the number one responsibility is for the safety of the submissive.

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

If the dominant owns the submissive do they get a choice about going to the hospital if that is what their owner wants? Is this a casual relationship? If so I would hope that dominants out there would think of the repercussions of playing with someone to the point of needing medical attention when they are not in an established dynamic and in control over the outcomes of the extreme play. I know for a fact that my Daddy would not play with a submissive that was not completely his in a way that was edgy or risky because a submissive desired it. In fact he would be very hesitant due to the legal repercussions that could result (he has told me this, and the longer we are together, the more edgy he will become).

To each their own I suppose, but it seems common sense to me that the dominant would seriously consider the end result of playing with a sub that had going to the hospital as a hard limit...I know if i was a dominant I would not want that sort of responsibility.

The wording of your original question no way resembles this clarification of the intent of your questions... I thought I would point out that the above quote post changes my response considerably.

If I were a dominant I would not touch a submissive that had hospital care as a hard limit.

I would probably not play in an edgy way with someone that I had no control over their care once they went to the hospital if I were their owner. That means medical power of attorney for my property if I were an owner type.

People take what risks are within them to take, I have no opinion about that, but the way you phrased this post above is definitely something worth thinking about and discussing with people we play with. It also hammers home why I do not want to play casually.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 54

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 10:44:45 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Since no question is "dum" I am curious to know when is the right time to cut off the hands of dominates who post imbicilic questions all designed to insight fear and to postion the questioner as someone on a supposed high moral ground?

When, after reading someone post the most simplistic questions better left to chatrooms, does one decide someone's "old guard" smells more like "right guard"?

When does asking questions, by definition a safe thing to do, become a virture as opposed to stating and discussing opinions, which is inherantly risky, expose a fraud?

When should not worship me since I am safer, deeper, more spirtual, more insightful, more thoughtful, more, more, more than anyone else here?

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 55

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 10:56:01 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Since no question is "dum" I am curious to know when is the right time to cut off the hands of dominates who post imbicilic questions all designed to insight fear and to postion the questioner as someone on a supposed high moral ground?

No intention is been posted that I am aware of. Glad you changed your name from crappy dom to this one..it suits you better...simply...

Post are designed to embark on philisophical discussions and in no way resemble some of the mud sligging I have seen.

One I will not stoop to it and two I promised a Mod I would be good.

There are no moral higher grounds taken or holier than thou perceptions. In My twenty some years of BDSM I like to have things evolve past the gramar school playground and take it to a more intelectual state.

If you do not agree with what is being posted then simply do it in a non flaming manner as it might refrain some other members from fear of being subjected to the same thing.

When, after reading someone post the most simplistic questions better left to chatrooms, does one decide someone's "old guard" smells more like "right guard"?

Some do not have the time to simply go into the chat rooms....and every one has their right to their opinion...unless it is decided otherwise in wickapedia.

When does asking questions, by definition a safe thing to do, become a virture as opposed to stating and discussing opinions, which is inherantly risky, expose a fraud?

I give up...what is the answer? What do I win? What fraud are we talking about? Political? Corruption of local officials?

I see no problem in asking questions...do you?

When should not worship me since I am safer, deeper, more spirtual, more insightful, more thoughtful, more, more, more than anyone else here?

OK...thank you for your insight...

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 56

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 11:30:22 AM

Wolf1020

Posts: 447
Joined: 11/7/2005
From: Anderson, SC
Status: offline

I would think not taking her to be a bigger issue. Someone in need of medical help is in need of medical help. Now if you got her to the point of needing medical help that could be argued but getting help that is needed shows responsibility, not lack of it.

_____________________________

"The less people know about how sausages and laws are made, the better they'll sleep at night."~ Otto von Bismarck

"Fish and visitors smell in three days"~Benjamin Franklin

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 57

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 11:36:19 AM

SirDiscipliner69

Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf1020

I would think not taking her to be a bigger issue. Someone in need of medical help is in need of medical help. Now if you got her to the point of needing medical help that could be argued but getting help that is needed shows responsibility, not lack of it.

I have known doms that have gotten too much into and needed another to intercede and pull them out of top space and tend to the victim.

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to Wolf1020)

Post #: 58

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 12:13:21 PM

NightWindWhisper

Posts: 143
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline

Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a submissive to a hospital for care for what was adminsistered in a session even though it was within the submissive's consent and limits?

To perceive the need for urgent care, and to ignore it is a violation of law in most states, just as if you saw a bicyclist lying unconscious on the side of the road, bleeding from the ears. It's not an "in the right." If the dom perceives there is that level of need, the dom must do that. However this being said: It is likely you will be questioned, even if you don't answer the questions expect to meet the police. If convenient have another woman who understands the relationship bring her.

Would't this be an abuse of trust and responsibility?

And if she dies from internal bleeding, infection or whatever, or suffers harm that could have been mitigated? Then what of trust and responsibility?

Should a dominant intentionally physically hurt, not emotionally hurt?

Hurt is damage. Damage is harm. Doms should do no harm. There are exceptions, for instance branding causes permanent tissue damage and could be an outlier to this. I believe that nobody should do emotional hurt to another, period.

Is harm a perception or a reality and how is it defined?

Harm is damage. A one inch tear that goes from the vagina to the rectum is indeed a perception of reality and is something that would need immediate urgent care. To define it would take pages.

Can giving a submissive discipline on a regular basis be perceived as harm as a co-enabling of an addictive personality?

Very interesting question. Short answer: yes. Long answer: Being spanked regularly (in a non-damaging manner) in a way that fulfills the need to turn to, let's say, alcohol then why not? However anyone can perceive anything, and addicts are often linked with 12 step groups and within that there is the perception of switching one addiction for another is not good. To enable one to do that then also would be perceived as "not good." It's such an open ended general question it's really impossible to answer.

As a side note, I believe that much of what occurs in a d/s // bdsm relationship is addicting. Heck I attempt to be my submissives addiction via orgasm and endorphin release, I haven't had any complaints on that one. Consider that working out at the gym, or running can be addictive, so can stamp collecting and sex. It's a matter of "does it interfere with life," or "is it harming the person in some way?"

(in reply to asubmissiveheart)

Post #: 59

RE: Would a Dominant be in the right if they sent a sub... - 2/14/2007 12:24:02 PM

onestandingstill

Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

Your question is a little confusing as to why the sub had to go to the Hospital.
Did the Dom do it on purpose, did he screw up and do something by accident, did he lose control and go off in a fit of rage???
Did someone else do it?
Did the sub have a medical problem unrelated to the Scene?
Exactly what you're asking I'm not sure.

I say if a Dom in a scene causes so much damage intentionally that it caused her to seek medical attention then he's a jerk.
Everyone knows you're not supposed to break your toys.

If he slipped and caused an injury by his lack of attention or lack of knowledge again he's a jerk as he should have been paying attention or trained in something before he did it better.
If the sub had say something like an asthma attack while getting a spanking, or a titty gland got clogged from play then that's different as no one can predict everything.
What exactly do you mean Ross?
Can you give us an example of what you are thinking please?
suzanne

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)

Post #: 60

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