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RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 1:01:47 PM   
HydroMaster


Posts: 4786
Joined: 9/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If it wasn't for trade unions the vast majority of people would still be living in slums, eating adulterated food and generally exploited to an early grave.


OMG! I think I just agreed with meatclever on a second issue!  What is this world coming to?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 1:14:31 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I'm not so much for regulation. I prefer the way it used to be done.

Go out on strike, Company hires strikebreakers to assault strikers.

EXCEPT, in MY VERSION...

Company is closed and liquidated for conspiracy to commit assault.

THAT'LL teach the Boss Class to bargain in good faith.






< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/15/2007 1:15:11 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to HydroMaster)
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RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 1:20:01 PM   
Tenire


Posts: 46
Joined: 4/2/2006
Status: offline 		Poison I can see where you're coming from on that point but I still think it's a matter of choice.

HydroMaster.... in the 70's the General Director of the IEC (Indep Elec Contractors which is a non Union school) was lured out of his car and beaten to near death and given a message to cease and desist from the Local Local. Also in the 70's my dad was beaten for crossing an Ironworkers picket line. He was at the time an Electrician.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 1:21:18 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Plus.. cant fire someone on drugs or a thief?   what a crock of bullshit.
If there is reason to fire you, you will be fired.
A union is not a cure all and does have flaws I agree.    But if you are a working man I still think they are your best bet.


Wanna bet? I'm from GM country and I have personally known people that were sent to rehab, drug counseling and what ever else the union could think of and the guy was never in danger of loosing his job. I've known drug counselors that worked specifically for the UAW and got told that by him. I knew a guy that would go in to the factory in the morning, clock in and leave, then come back at the end of the day and clock out... yeah, he was working hard for the big bucks. I also met a girl near a decade ago, 18 years old, she was making $22 an hour to sit and in an outsource factory and look for bad parts sent to us from GM... yeah, she worked her little butt off.  Most of the time she sat and talked to the guys there and we ended up having to sort those parts.
 
I have an ex that worked for the union... Teamsters, they were pretty good at screwing over the workers in that place too. But, the good news is, you could steal from that company too and not get fired. Handy when you're a thief.
 
Jewel 


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Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

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RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 1:23:56 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Life is good when you have friends.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 1:45:03 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Like most things, the concept is not a problem. The concept of a workers' union protecting workers rights (working hours, pay etc) from exploitation is sound. The real problem is two-fold:

1) The minor problem of a minority of workers using the union to take a free ride.

2) The more serious problem is the establishment completely and utterly exaggerating this level of free ride. It goes without saying that workers unity, strength and collective bargaining power is not in the interests of the establishment and big business owners. In Britain, you mention the unions and most will have a negative view as a result of the power of the collective government, establishment and media propaganda. It's a sad fact of life that people are sucked in by the media (and their big business allies) and forget that most of us are workers with far more common ground than we will ever have with the people who run our societies. Divide and rule.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to HydroMaster)
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RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 1:57:43 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		The Union "Leadership" have simply sold out and become part of the Boss Class.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 2:22:59 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		I can't speak for the US, but the unions in this country were badly let down by the people who bought the media exaggeration and sensationalism.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 3:37:31 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The issue at hand is not if Unions are good or bad but weather you beleive that the employeess should be afforded the right to a secret ballot to decide if they should unionize or not.

The way the law stands now once 50% of shop have signed their little cards, they have a vote on a secret ballot, and if it passes they are unionized. However the proposed change in the law removes that pesky little voting step, get the signatures (through whatever tactics nessisary and presto union.

I am against the new measure because it eliminates the secret ballot step and the protection it affords the employee fro retribution from both sides Union and Employer. Collect the cards have the vote and let the vote decide.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 3:56:56 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Like most things, the concept is not a problem. The concept of a workers' union protecting workers rights (working hours, pay etc) from exploitation is sound. The real problem is two-fold:

1) The minor problem of a minority of workers using the union to take a free ride.

2) The more serious problem is the establishment completely and utterly exaggerating this level of free ride. It goes without saying that workers unity, strength and collective bargaining power is not in the interests of the establishment and big business owners. In Britain, you mention the unions and most will have a negative view as a result of the power of the collective government, establishment and media propaganda. It's a sad fact of life that people are sucked in by the media (and their big business allies) and forget that most of us are workers with far more common ground than we will ever have with the people who run our societies. Divide and rule.


Very well said. You get an A+.   

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 5:20:35 PM   
PoisonRoses


Posts: 65
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		If you have a drug or alcohol problem its true.. they do try getting you help before kicking your ass to the streets.  We even have councelors we can call to talk to 24/7 until they can get you in face to face for help.  And that is for any kind of problems.  Anything you feel desperate about.    Damned people.   I would prefer it if they just tossed me to the streets so I could really go balistic..
As for stealing, I suppose different unions have different rules.  Dont really know.  I only know I have seen people lead out in handcuffs.  Arrested and yes, fired.
All the horror stories from people who have never personally worked for a union but someone said....   so it's gotta be true.
Still it's a free choice. 
You don't want to be union?   great.  I do.   Just remember who sacrifices so the things that are right for the workers are put into place.
Do you think places like Wal Mart who fight to keep unions out are doing it because they really care about their employees?
Could a man work a 40 hour workweek and support his family working there?   Without foodstamps or medicade or whatever your state calls your welfare healthcare?
Look at their profits..   they sure arent passed down to the worker..

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 5:32:39 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

What do you all think?

After reading this, it sounds like someone would prefer sneaking in a union, rather than be up front about it.

Of course that makes sense from the union's perspective, they don't want opposition. Unions prefer to use the "grass is greener on the other side" tactic, promising the world with little intention of delivering. Many years ago before modern labor laws, when sweatshops were in abundance, certainly there was a reason for organization and to force collective bargaining, this in an effort to regulate hours, pay and benefits. Those days have passed. Now there are laws and regulations that deal with this and although there are occasional infractions, which are in fact illegal, for the most part whether you work for a union company or not, you are afforded similar benefits.

Fast forward to current times and unions have outlived their usefulness. For the most part, unions are now for the timid who don't have the nerve, work ethic or dare I say it "balls", to stand up for themselves. The times of getting paid a small fortune for sitting on their ass is over and the employee who honestly gives a damned about their company, who promotes efficiency and quality, is capable of rising to the top, providing a union isn't there to hold them back. Union scales tend to downplay work ethics and promote based on seniority. You stick with the company for 10 years in "X" job; you get paid "this". Doesn't matter if you are a sluff or an assbuster, same result.....so what is the point in working hard? 

You want something to thank modern day unions for? Thank them for the ridiculous prices you pay for consumer goods, particularly cars. Luckily, in the last few years, a large majority of the parts and products used to produce vehicles in nearly all North American auto plants are now outsourced to other companies, predominately non-union companies or overseas to third world countries. That has been the only saving grace for the OEMs to be able to not only stay in business, but to keep the cost of manufacturing down to a point where prices of the end product can be somewhat stifled. Ironically, the same union companies who are doing all the bitching and moaning about manufacturing leaving the shores and going overseas, are the very reason it happened....they nearly opened up and held the door. Cause and effect at its finest.

And you were saying?



_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 5:34:13 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070215/pl_nm/congress_labor_veto_dc_1

Apparently Congress was threatened with a veto if they approved a bill to change the way that  unions are created and it would force business owners to bargain with them.

I am personally against this.   I live in a right to work state.  If this were passed and 50% +1 Employees signed cards, then I would be forced to join the union in order to get a job (potentially).  To me it is like serving two masters.  You are required first to follow whatever the union says (in my experience you don't and you get shot at and beat up) then what the employer says.

What do you all think?


OOO OOO OOO, Pick me!

I will take a crack at this.

I belong to a union originally set up by a man named Harry Bridges who was widely reviled in the 1930s by almost everybody as a communist sympathizer.

The union I belong to has the best medical benefits, the best pension benefits, a living wage, of any union or non-union job in the entire country.

The shipping companies insist they pay too much in wages.   The ENTIRE payroll and medical benefits and benefits for everybody, union, non-union, etc., in the entire port system on the west coast amounts to a cost to the shipping companies of (pause for drumroll) 3 (three) percent of their PROFIT.  I said PROFIT, not operating costs.

I dont serve a master.  I work for a contract.  That contract, by union rules set up by Harry Bridges, requires a majority vote from the rank and file.  The shipping companies can come to the table insisting we are overpaid, they dont want to do benefits, etc., but unless they can convince the union membership to approve the contract, it goes back to the bargaining table.

If you dont like the union you are in, get active and change your bylaws.  But as somebody else posted, without trade unions in the United States you and everybody else would be working for slave wages.

United we bargain, divided we beg.

Sinergy

p.s. I just want to be free to ride my machine (today that was an 80 ton forklift) and not be hassled by the man.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 5:48:02 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Unions do have their place (I've said it before), but they have atendency to do things that I totally disagree with.

1 - they took pot shots at me and my fellow soldiers for doing our job as soldiers.
2 - they have been known way to many times to use physical violence to get their way.
3 - I have seen them take the voice of the rank and file away and they are reqired to do what is told to them by the executive committee and stewards.
4 - they have a tendency to overprice their employee wages.  If the cost of living goes up 2 1/2% then they get 3% pay increase which drives the cost of living up - its a vicious cycle.

Management as well screws the employee   I think the retail industry is the primary example, but I have seen management even create a management union (city of fresno did it because they hadn't had a pay raise in 6 years)  I even helped them in the process.

I was forced to become a union steward.   That was the only way that I was allowed to have a say - my union by-laws took the rights of the rank and file from them and vested all discussion and decisions in the Executive Committee and the stewards.  As soon as I got that changed, I dropped out as steward.

I have seen unions, in arguing over 0.001% create public health hazards as a way of getting their way.


(in reply to PoisonRoses)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 6:36:30 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		People you forget history...the history of the capitalist and labor...it is not pretty at all.
First, the so-called free market started anything but free with slavery. Capitalism and slavery is a match made in the heavens of profits.

Then of course, let's not forget the Ludlow Tent Colony I (tents were the country 4 bedroom homes for the coal miners of the last century) suffered over 60 women and children burned or shot to death, first by private security then the National Guard all the while...the great Woodrow Wilson did nothing. Yes, this was sometime before any labor laws.

Let us not forget the Lincoln County war (gave 'birth' to Billy-the-Kid) and the Wisconsin Meatpacking Association. Look them up...it is depressing.

These groups weren't just capitalist fascists, they were capitalist murderers. All over this country and all through the 19th century...people were not people at all, they were the great unwashed...labor...slaves. Remember the great coal country hit...16 Tons ?

Then Dale Carnegie hired the Pinkertons to shoot down the dock and factory workers which caused the first public outcry for labor laws. It didn't work.

It wasn't until workers refused to build up for WWII (at 60 cents/hr) in 1936 that the Roosevelt administration signed laws establishing the NLRB (national labor Relations Board) and legally recognized the formation of unions specifically for collective bargaining.

It always amuses me when people talk of the corruption of union leadership and their benefit funds when all thruout history there has been no more corruption then in the greed and cruelty of the capitalist and probably not since the 1000's slaves that labored on the pyramids.

Capitalism is the antithesis of the free market and is merely a 'paper' economy where the value of the paper is 'enhanced' by the slaves.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 7:02:36 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 
It is unfortunate, KenDckey, that you belong to an ineffective union.  The examples of poorly run labor unions are easier to find than ones which actually work in the best interests of the rank and file.

I would point out that it is intellectually lazy to blame collective bargaining and labor relations for a specific union, and their stupid approaches to labor relations, on.

An example I can point out is the Teamsters union.  I dont recall the year it happened, but at one point they tried to break the union I belong to and take control of driving cargo in the harbor.   Apparently, driving cargo from the harbor to wherever it went was not enough for them, and because they had turned over their union leadership to salaried organizers, they ended up screwing themselves with the longshore union and unable to do anything on the docks.  The Teamsters went to the mat with the employers.  The employers went to the mat with the ILWU.  The employers lost at arbitration.  The Teamsters were sent packing.  While I personally am there to work, I feel rather bad about outside truckers.

On a related note, the Teamsters had all sorts of internal strife years ago and are now a completely ineffective union, but that is besides my point.

The union I belong to (ILWU) will not organize with the ILA (east coast longshoremen) because the ILA has paid union organizers (which, oddly enough, have links to organized crime) and contract negotiators, and these people refuse to accept our contract guaranteeting 100% democratic vote on contract negotiations.  While ILA says this is a bad thing and tries to convince us to go with it, what stops them is our 100% democratic vote on everything.  They simply cannot convince the rank and file that they should turn over control of the union to a bunch of people who dont stand under cranes and express their morpheme, whether or not they have ties to organized crime.

On a related note, the ILA refuses to give up their union negotiators.  One more cynical than I might think that the paid union organizers are worried about losing their jobs...

As I stated before, "United we bargain, divided we beg."

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 7:10:49 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

United we bargain, divided we beg.


Well said. Is that original?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 7:11:53 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

1 - they took pot shots at me and my fellow soldiers for doing our job as soldiers.


What were you doing and where?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 7:15:26 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

United we bargain, divided we beg.


Well said. Is that original?


Thank you, dcnovice, but I got it off a sticker on a hard hat of a friend.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 7:16:35 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

1 - they took pot shots at me and my fellow soldiers for doing our job as soldiers.


What were you doing and where?


I am more curious what union was taking pot shots at soldiers doing their jobs.

Seems to me like something that Rush would explain to his dittoheads, rather than extant reality.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 40
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