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RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:03:36 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Now for a bit less biased source saying the same I said, go beyond the sites name and look at the two former union organizers who testified before congress about how they thought the bill was going to lead to abuses of employees by the unions.

http://www.nrtwc.org/newsroom/621.htm


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:04:24 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

And my statement had nothing about any such thing happening.
My statement addressed the idea that union organizers have used intimidation against EMPLOYEES to get them enough votes to bring the union into a shop.

Two entirely different things, you're trying to drag me off into something I specificly didn't want to address because I find it not relevent to the topic the OP presented.



Fair enough, you feel that I am trying to pull you off topic, therefore...

Please provide historical examples where what you propose actually happened, so we can discuss them in a scholarly fashion and view them in a contextual framework.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:05:40 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Was there a conviction in that case you posted? Without a conviction it really is not a story that has much merit


If you bothered to read it you'd know that it is an ongoing case where the man's testimony is being traded for immunity.


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:06:28 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Seems to me a lot of prejudicial speak.. a lot of "could do this" and "could do thats"...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:07:37 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer



quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Was there a conviction in that case you posted? Without a conviction it really is not a story that has much merit


If you bothered to read it you'd know that it is an ongoing case where the man's testimony is being traded for immunity.




Oh, so he is cutting a deal... hmmmmm... I am getting the picture... he is cutting a deal to save his own ass and has motive to lie...Got it!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:08:07 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Now for a bit less biased source saying the same I said, go beyond the sites name and look at the two former union organizers who testified before congress about how they thought the bill was going to lead to abuses of employees by the unions.

http://www.nrtwc.org/newsroom/621.htm




So the corporations found 2 former union employees who would testify what might concievably happen in theory
if unions are allowed to organize in ways which the corporations might object to.

And you jump on the pro-corporate bandwagon without researching the topic at hand.

Am I interrupting some sort of Pavlovian experiment?

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:12:05 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		LOL Typical, LOL

Source found Former not only union employees but former union organizers testify under oath about abuses already seen in states where the law reads this way and you dismiss it out of hand yourself.

Are you seriously contending that Union Organizers do not use preassure and intimidation to get votes, but Employers do?????

While you are seemingly trying to say that Union hands are squeeky clean I am contending that both sides of Labor and Management have used intimidation and that reguardless of which side it is used on it needs to be stopped not made easier.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:15:17 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		I love the name Card Check Forced Unionism Bill! Deliciously Orwellian.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:16:41 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		And the Democrates named it dcnovice, LOL They gotta get some better minds working on bill titles, LOL.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:18:12 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I did not dismiss it, but I would like to see a conclusion to a trial before I jump on some bandwagon that states "Archer proved his point!" I am sure there are greedy corrupt union people.. they are still a check and balance against greedy corrupt CEO types... we need that check and balance. You know a company is only responsible for their bottom line, ethics be damned.,... fuck everyone and everything that stands in the way of profits.. we need unions even if there are some corruption problems... you know, Ken Lay is only ONE example of proven greedy corrupt assholes running the economic show.. shall we compile union crooks versus Wall Street crooks? That would be fun fun fun!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:18:16 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

LOL Typical, LOL

Source found Former not only union employees but former union organizers testify under oath about abuses already seen in states where the law reads this way and you dismiss it out of hand yourself.

Are you seriously contending that Union Organizers do not use preassure and intimidation to get votes, but Employers do?????

While you are seemingly trying to say that Union hands are squeeky clean I am contending that both sides of Labor and Management have used intimidation and that reguardless of which side it is used on it needs to be stopped not made easier.



Still waiting for the actual examples and evidence to support your claim.

I am tired, should I assume you wont provide this this evening and go to bed?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:20:58 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

testify under oath


I'm not sure Congressional testimony is given under oath, actually.

quote:

I am contending that both sides of Labor and Management have used intimidation and that reguardless of which side it is used on it needs to be stopped not made easier.


Good point, I think. Still, while I don't doubt that your concern about intimidation is genuine, I'm skeptical of some the bill's foes (Cheney, NAM, NRTWC). That makes me wonder if their opposition isn't really rooted in wanting to keep employees as nonunionized as possible.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:23:26 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

And the Democrates named it dcnovice, LOL They gotta get some better minds working on bill titles, LOL.


No, that name is NWRTC's spin! The bill's real name is Employee Free Choice Act.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:32:21 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Ah that's right, then the Republicans against it have done a good job naming it so they can spin it well. LOL They have the right guys re-namming the bills then. LOL Make it sound end of the worldish, LOL.

Seriously though I'm not sure the bill is all bad I'm not totally anti union hell my grandfather was a union man, in TN steelmills when it was dangerous. But any time anyone proposes that the opportunity to vote and cast a ballot in secret be removed that certainly bothers me and gives me pause as to their intentions.
The fact is secret ballots are something that the nation was formed with, we get them for elections of all types.
The opportunity is there for intimidation as it stands and this does nothing but increase the opportunity for it.
At least with the secret ballots you can fold under preasure and sign the card and then vote the other way.







(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:35:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Seriously though I'm not sure the bill is all bad I'm not totally anti union hell my grandfather was a union man, in TN steelmills when it was dangerous


My Daddy's job is one of the most dangerous in this country.. right up there with fisherman.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:36:48 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		I think he meant dangerous to be in a union.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:38:10 PM   
MissBabydoll


Posts: 62
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I did not dismiss it, but I would like to see a conclusion to a trial before I jump on some bandwagon that states "Archer proved his point!" I am sure there are greedy corrupt union people.. they are still a check and balance against greedy corrupt CEO types... we need that check and balance. You know a company is only responsible for their bottom line, ethics be damned.,... fuck everyone and everything that stands in the way of profits.. we need unions even if there are some corruption problems... you know, Ken Lay is only ONE example of proven greedy corrupt assholes running the economic show.. shall we compile union crooks versus Wall Street crooks? That would be fun fun fun!


Thank you. The point also needs to be made that corporations have vast wealth that unions do not approach by several entire orders of magnitude, because they are organizations of ***ordinary working people*** in a society in which the top 10% of the population controls 90% of the wealth, and the top 1% more than 50% of it--the most grotesquely unequal distribution of any developed nation. None of this 1% is composed of union leaders, nor any but the tiniest fraction of the top 10%.

Let the point be made also that the NLRB and the entire apparatus of labor law in this country is the most restrictive and union-hostile of any developed nation, with the possible exception of Airstrip One, aka Great Britain. Let the further point be made that the US now ranks well below the EU and Japan in median standard of living, and has the highest rates of malnutrition, poverty, and infant mortality in the developed world; the shortest amount of vacation time and parenting leave for workers; and on and on and on.

And then people grouse because unions, which are made up of human beings operating in an unbelievably corrupt decaying empire, sometimes resort to bad tactics to get workers to join. This is like all the conservatives who are against social welfare programs because they discourage the poor from initiative and self-reliance, while they themselves use their wealth to gain every possible advantaege for themselves and their children. If George W. Bush had been born into a working-class family, he would be stacking for Wal-Mart and drinking and tweaking himself into oblivion every night, and his daughters would be selling their asses on the corner.

I don't know that I can go on dealing with these boards. The politics of some of the people on here, especially some of the maledoms (why am I not surprised?) are making my head explode.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:39:19 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		No, it's dangerous to NOT be in the union. I think that's the point...

"Hey, watch where you're dropping that sandbag!"



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:41:44 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		You know what idea jumps out to me. Bruce Sterlings "Economic Democracies" from Islands in the Net.

What we need is an evolved union, which doesn't REPRESENT workers, but is a Corporation, whose shares are OWNED by the members ( Maybe like a Credit Union sorta thing... ) where the CORPORATION actually contracts out with the employers.

Might work out well for a decade or two, till the weasels get involved.

-- EDIT

Ok, it's been pointed out that this might be called a "Guild" or some such renfest frippery.

Fucking renfests...

Like a grateful dead parking lot campout without the drugs and good music. Well, GOOD is relative...



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/15/2007 9:43:34 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:42:00 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

LOL Typical, LOL

Source found Former not only union employees but former union organizers testify under oath about abuses already seen in states where the law reads this way and you dismiss it out of hand yourself.

Are you seriously contending that Union Organizers do not use preassure and intimidation to get votes, but Employers do?????

While you are seemingly trying to say that Union hands are squeeky clean I am contending that both sides of Labor and Management have used intimidation and that reguardless of which side it is used on it needs to be stopped not made easier.



There is this thing in academia you may not be familiar with, Archer.

It involves publishing one's opinion and then

(drum roll)

providing ones source material.

I simply asked you to provide empirical evidence to support your conclusion.

Your response was to attack me.

While that is marginally interesting to read, it is not relevant to the issue.

Please provide your source material to support your position.

Or dont do so and let everybody reading know that you have no source material to support your opinion.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 80
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