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RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:42:21 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

I don't know that I can go on dealing with these boards. The politics of some of the people on here, especially some of the maledoms (why am I not surprised?) are making my head explode.


I understand the feeling, but I hope you'll stay with us. You raised some really good points!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to MissBabydoll)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:44:41 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Ah that's right, then the Republicans against it have done a good job naming it so they can spin it well. LOL They have the right guys re-namming the bills then. LOL Make it sound end of the worldish, LOL.

Seriously though I'm not sure the bill is all bad I'm not totally anti union hell my grandfather was a union man, in TN steelmills when it was dangerous. But any time anyone proposes that the opportunity to vote and cast a ballot in secret be removed that certainly bothers me and gives me pause as to their intentions.
The fact is secret ballots are something that the nation was formed with, we get them for elections of all types.
The opportunity is there for intimidation as it stands and this does nothing but increase the opportunity for it.
At least with the secret ballots you can fold under preasure and sign the card and then vote the other way.



The HORROR!
 
WHEN I VOTE ON ELECTION DAY IT USES A SECRET BALLOT!
 
OH MY GOD!
 
Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:45:17 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I think the point of "It's sometimes just as dangerous to buck the Union", is so obvious it's not worth the candle...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:46:23 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Foundry workers of the 40's certainly had more risk than almost any job by comparison today.
Add to that the idea of being Unionized in Tennessee where a huge part of the violence against Union workers historicly occured and maybe you'll see the point I was making.





(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:48:05 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		The problem with the process as it stands now can be seen fairly easily by taking a look at everyones favroite store, wallyworld.

What happens if an organizer presents the magic 50% + 1 signed cards to the store management? A wave of firings. In one case in Canada where they couldn't get away with that they simply closed the store entirely, Jonquiere Quebec for the curious.

Getting rid of the vote step allows the organizing to be discreet and for management to be presented with a fait accompli. I'm sure some pressure will be applied to some prospectie members. I'm sure such pressure is applied far more often and far more harshly by management trying to stop an organizing drive.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:48:12 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		And yet you seem to support the elimination of them from the unionization process.
There is a disconnect there that I don't get.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:50:02 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Well, all in all, ( UFCW Local 1500 ) I think Unions are a good thing. But to be objective, there's a bunch of inappropriate behavior on both sides. Ok, so we all agree that people ( The Boss Class and thier Union Management Buddies ) suck.

And hell, secret ballots are a good thing, I'm all for them too.

I'd like to see a lot more organizing outside of the modern union structure. Maybe get into the food co-ops workers with a co-op union sorta thing.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:51:10 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		So rather than go the whole way to eliminating the ballots make it an automatic check by Dept of Labor on any firings done post presentation of the 50%+1 cards/ petition.
I'll buy that, and even support criminal penalties for it, but I see this bill as over reaching.


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:52:21 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The problem with the process as it stands now can be seen fairly easily by taking a look at everyones favroite store, wallyworld.

What happens if an organizer presents the magic 50% + 1 signed cards to the store management? A wave of firings. In one case in Canada where they couldn't get away with that they simply closed the store entirely, Jonquiere Quebec for the curious.

Getting rid of the vote step allows the organizing to be discreet and for management to be presented with a fait accompli. I'm sure some pressure will be applied to some prospectie members. I'm sure such pressure is applied far more often and far more harshly by management trying to stop an organizing drive.


Actually, wouldn't it be easier to just bust wally-world ( Assuming anyone REALLY wants change, I'm skeptical that this is just more light without heat... ) for Fair Labor violations, fine the shit out of them ( and I mean SERIOUS Billion Dollar Fine shit, given their annual take ) and make them behave properly.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:54:04 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Foundry workers of the 40's certainly had more risk than almost any job by comparison today.
Add to that the idea of being Unionized in Tennessee where a huge part of the violence against Union workers historicly occured and maybe you'll see the point I was making.



The source material to support this would be?

Sinergy

p.s. the usual response to this sort of question is to malign the person asking as being a union / non union flunky with an axe to grind.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:55:06 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		See by comparrison even my middle of the road view seems right of center when faced with some folks here.
I agree both sides are abusing the system as it stands but rather than buy into a bill that mearly shifts the opportunity for abuse from one side to the other I want a bill that will prevent the abuses from either side, and then the RUSH insults come flying in.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:56:39 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The lack of OSHA laws previous to 1970.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:57:44 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

So rather than go the whole way to eliminating the ballots make it an automatic check by Dept of Labor on any firings done post presentation of the 50%+1 cards/ petition.
I'll buy that, and even support criminal penalties for it, but I see this bill as over reaching.

The problem is, its already supposed to be illegal to fire people before an organizing vote without good cause. Complaints to the NLRB on this issue are pretty thoroughly ignored.

The fact is if present unionization laws were actually being enforced this law would be unnecessary and I'm sure the Dems in Congress wouldn't be spending time on it. However in the real world the NLRB is part of the executive branch and with GWB in office the board considers virtually nothing management does to be in violation of the law.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:58:43 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

And yet you seem to support the elimination of them from the unionization process.
There is a disconnect there that I don't get.



This was in response to a post by "Archer"

Two words:  Therapy.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 10:00:11 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

See by comparrison even my middle of the road view seems right of center when faced with some folks here.
I agree both sides are abusing the system as it stands but rather than buy into a bill that mearly shifts the opportunity for abuse from one side to the other I want a bill that will prevent the abuses from either side, and then the RUSH insults come flying in.



Would it work if I asked you for empircal evidence to support your position in Swahili or Dutch or Malay?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 10:00:16 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Agreed wholeheartedly. Perhaps this idea helps delineate where I stand:

"*MORE* LEGISLATION NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING" Once you make the State responsible for Education, the endless argument begins about "How Much", "What Type", "To Whom", and "How Do I Get a Check out of this?" NEVER stop being argued.

Ok, it's wrong to pull in edumactation, but wait, this is a Union topic? Maybe it isn't.






_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 10:02:00 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

RUSH insults come flying in.



Bashing Rush Limbaugh is always appropriate, regardless of the current topic. Guy wants to be a celebrity, fine.

His limp-dick, and drug addiction are perfectly fine discussion topics for a "Celebrity".

However, Rush ROCKS. Go Canada! 3 guys, 96 channels in a live show. And they use them all. Whew.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/15/2007 10:03:48 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 10:02:48 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Even today Foundry Work ranks in the top 5 or 6 industries for deaths and accidents.

Add to that the advent of protective gear that we have today and you have a perfectly well defended assertion that they were exposed to more danger then than most any job today.



(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 10:02:53 PM   
feylin


Posts: 182
Joined: 3/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The Union "Leadership" have simply sold out and become part of the Boss Class.




http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/other/02/08/8walmart.html

I cannot fathom why a union leader would sit in the same room as a representative of Walmart.  I understand that union reps and CEOs need to be able to sit down and communicate, but Walmart??


I belonged to a strong local, even became a steward. Had to represent a scab a time or two and gave it my best (even though I thought he should be shown the door) since I was trained that it was illegal to do otherwise.  But he was the minority in more than two hundred members I assisted day in and day out.

Sure most of the time I just fought for fair vacation practices and argued grey areas of the national contract, but here's an example of something that happened in the late 90s.  Male managers of this predominantly female workforce wanted to hold a folded dollar bill against workers' thighs to measure the distance between the hem of her shorts to the top of her knee to determine if her shorts met dress code requirements.  That had to go out of the building.   Unbelievable.  Result:  practice discontinued, plant manager promoted to DC job.

My stepfather was a Teamster so I was raised from almost birth to respect picket lines and when I joined my own  union that idea was reinforced in my mind.  After being involuntarily reassigned, I discovered all locals are not created equal and an unsupportive, lazy rank and file gets exactly what they deserve from the leaders they vote in office. (I should note this same local got me a $9,000 settlement a year after I had to quit to retain my sanity.  Some of my reassigned friends who stuck it out got almost $25,000.  The service just figured a blatant contract violation was worth the payout.  I liked my job, though, and would have preferred keeping it.) 

Anyone who thinks unions are antiquated should work a day in that plant near Philly.  Its like stepping back in time.

Now I work for an insurance company. <laughs>  So the fact that a union leader and Walmart are going to come up with a health insurance reform doubly scares me.  I know my company uses and promotes consumer-based health insurance.  In my case, it means you pay into a health plan but don't actually receive any benefits unless someone beats you into a coma ~ and that only kicks in after a high deductible.  I am sure others are familiar with the health savings plans.  Is it the wave of the future? No doubt.  I just miss my union dental plan, I really do.  I actually get better benefits from my car insurance.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 10:08:48 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

So rather than go the whole way to eliminating the ballots make it an automatic check by Dept of Labor on any firings done post presentation of the 50%+1 cards/ petition.
I'll buy that, and even support criminal penalties for it, but I see this bill as over reaching.

The problem is, its already supposed to be illegal to fire people before an organizing vote without good cause. Complaints to the NLRB on this issue are pretty thoroughly ignored.

The fact is if present unionization laws were actually being enforced this law would be unnecessary and I'm sure the Dems in Congress wouldn't be spending time on it. However in the real world the NLRB is part of the executive branch and with GWB in office the board considers virtually nothing management does to be in violation of the law.


Well there you have it, in your own words If the law as it stands was being enforced we wouldn't need the new law.

So why make a new law rather than force the existing one to be enforced?
That is the basis of so many of my arguments against new laws.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 100
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