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RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 7:46:15 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Unions do have their place (I've said it before), but they have atendency to do things that I totally disagree with.

1 - they took pot shots at me and my fellow soldiers for doing our job as soldiers.


Is it a potshot if it's predicated upon the idea "It is not the DUTY of soldiers in a Constitutional Republic to participate in extra-Constitutional Wars"? Upon reflection, the idea of Unions dissing Soldiers is crazy. Who else benefits from the Defense industry more?

quote:


2 - they have been known way to many times to use physical violence to get their way.


That's bad? Well, if you consider the Hardhats beating the shit out of the Hippies at Battery Park, Yeah it is.

If you consider the use of violence as an appropriate to the Boss Class use of violence? It's not a bad thing.

quote:


3 - I have seen them take the voice of the rank and file away and they are reqired to do what is told to them by the executive committee and stewards.


See my prior post about contemporary union leadership selling out to become members of the Boss class.

quote:


4 - they have a tendency to overprice their employee wages. If the cost of living goes up 2 1/2% then they get 3% pay increase which drives the cost of living up - its a vicious cycle.


When Bob Nardelli pockets a few hundred million for fucking up, isn't bitching about 1/2% kind of pointless?

quote:


Management as well screws the employee I think the retail industry is the primary example, but I have seen management even create a management union (city of fresno did it because they hadn't had a pay raise in 6 years) I even helped them in the process.

I was forced to become a union steward. That was the only way that I was allowed to have a say - my union by-laws took the rights of the rank and file from them and vested all discussion and decisions in the Executive Committee and the stewards. As soon as I got that changed, I dropped out as steward.

I have seen unions, in arguing over 0.001% create public health hazards as a way of getting their way.


I've seen GE create public health hazards by dumping PCB's into the Hudson River. It's the nature of the beast.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/15/2007 7:47:35 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 7:49:19 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

1 - they took pot shots at me and my fellow soldiers for doing our job as soldiers.



I am sorry you feel insulted by unions.

Read about "Bloody Thursday," KenDckey.

The employers have been more than willing to MURDER their employees in cold blood.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 7:51:01 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
Alive as you and me.
Says I "But Joe, you're ten years dead"
"I never died" said he,
"I never died" said he.

"In Salt Lake, Joe," says I to him,
him standing by my bed,
"They framed you on a murder charge,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead."

"The Copper Bosses killed you Joe,
they shot you Joe" says I.
"Takes more than guns to kill a man"
Says Joe "I didn't die"
Says Joe "I didn't die"

And standing there as big as life
and smiling with his eyes.
Says Joe "What they can never kill
went on to organize,
went on to organize"

From San Diego up to Maine,
in every mine and mill,
where working-men defend their rights,
it's there you find Joe Hill,
it's there you find Joe Hill!

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
alive as you and me.
Says I "But Joe, you're ten years dead"
"I never died" said he,
"I never died" said he.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:00:32 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		KenDckey:
Some union punks shot at you and your soldier boy friends...If I remember soldiers have guns and are trained to use them...sounds to me like someone was lacking a little intestinal fortitude.
You accuse the unions of physical violence but if you look at the history of labor relations it is management that time and time again have been the instigators of violence.
You do not think it is right for you to be required to belong to a union to work...do you have a problem with doctors being forced to belong to a union....do you have a problem with a lawyer being forced to belong to a union?  No they do not call their professional associations union but a union by any other name is still a union.  Many professions require you to prove your profesional competence to practice your trade so also do the trades whether you are a welder a brick mason a plumber or what ever your chosen job is.
Why is it that management gets paid first then the stock holders and finaly labor and if labor gets a raise then all increases in the cost of goods and services are blamed on the raises of labor. 
Home depot just fired their CEO for imcompetence and gave him 210 million dollars on the way out.  I wonder if that has anything to do with the price of the goods at Home Depot or is just the ten cents an hour that some $8.00 an hour broom pusher gets that pushes the price up.  When the fed prints money that is backed by nothing but ink and paper it is called inflation but somehow you want to blame that on increased wages that some union manages to extract from management.  Why is it ok for management to bargain as a unified front but labor is not.  For example the workers in the plumbing department  at home depot do not negotiate with the head of the plumbing department for a wage increase they must deal with the whole economic power of the corporation what is fair about that?  When you complain that some broom pusher is making way too much money for their knowledge or skill level....do they need less oxygen than their more educated peers less food,less respect, do they need less vacation time and on and on.  We all sit down to shit and we all breath the same air...the broom pusher is just as important to the success of an enterprise as the CEO if any cog on the wheel is broken the wheel ceases to work by the degree that it is dificient.  The concept of "right to work"  is just a thinly disguised effort of the incompetent to take a free ride on the coat tails of the union who has made the work place a safer and more economically rewarding place to work.  What is it that makes you think if unions went away that management would not revert to what they have traditionally done.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/15/2007 8:05:14 PM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:04:53 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		And still the debate goes on about things not the issue at hand. LOL

What about the law as proposed do you like or dislike.

As I already mentioned I dislike the elimination of the secret ballot step in the process, it protects the workers from bullying at either union or employer hands and there are enough examples of both for this to be a real concern.

So how about addressing the law as proposed instead of rehashing the decades long debate about unions good or bad?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:08:40 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

and there are enough examples of both for this to be a real concern.



Care to provide some examples of labor unions screwing the employer?

Or is this one of those "I heard it on Rush Limbaugh so it must be true" things we simply have to accept
as reality?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:28:27 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Plenty of exaples of union thugs intimidating folks into signing the union cards can be found with a little effort.
Hey John you know Bruno (6ft 6 in 300#) we wanted to talk to you about forming a union here all you need to do is sign this card."

http://www.nlpc.org/view.asp?action=viewArticle&aid=937

Hows the fire bombing of a NON Union Worker for a union steward screwing an employee?

Or lets see how many "Scabs" have been shot and killed? They are employees too.

Fact is it happens, union reps have used intimidation to try to boost their memberships and what fear is their on thier part to have the ballots of do we form a union or not be secret, this new law eliminates the voting entirely since it says all they have to do is get the signatures on the cards.

Shall we just shift the entire system to petitions, Sign this petition to have X for president? The idea of a secret ballot is to protect the voter from outside influence, and let them vote thier mind. This new law wants to take that away.

BTW if you read what I wrote I said bullying of the employees by both union and employers, not the union screwing the employer.


< Message edited by Archer -- 2/15/2007 8:29:55 PM >

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:37:07 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		I was all set to say, "Yeah, we need to keep requiring those elections," but then I came to the following two paragraphs in the OP's article:

Backers of the bill, the Employee Free Choice Act, argue that the election process is inherently unfair because union organizers can be denied access to the workplace, while bosses can require workers to attend anti-union meetings.

They also cite studies showing that employers often fire workers illegally with little, if any, penalty in the months leading up to elections. The bill's opponents counter with charges of worker intimidation in organizing campaigns, which they say the bill would make worse.


Also, if Dick Cheney's against it, the idea must have some merit!


< Message edited by dcnovice -- 2/15/2007 8:40:54 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:40:18 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

http://www.nlpc.org/view.asp?action=viewArticle&aid=937


I'm not sure how unbiased a source this is.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:41:29 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"The Penguin" is against it? Well, my knee jerk reaction then is to be FOR the legislation...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:43:02 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		A valid argument to pursue dc. So lets see are there other ways than eliminating the secret ballot to rectify the problems?
I would contend that there are. Wrongfull termination can be handled by union lawyers if they want to take the cases.
Tough to solve the access problem since the workplace is generally private property. The employer can certainly require attendance at anti union "pep rallies" on thier time but since it is paid time that has a cost. The Union can hold pro union rallies but to force employees to attend seems a bit OTT.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:44:20 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Plenty of exaples of union thugs intimidating folks into signing the union cards can be found with a little effort.
Hey John you know Bruno (6ft 6 in 300#) we wanted to talk to you about forming a union here all you need to do is sign this card."

http://www.nlpc.org/view.asp?action=viewArticle&aid=937

Hows the fire bombing of a NON Union Worker for a union steward screwing an employee?

Or lets see how many "Scabs" have been shot and killed? They are employees too.

Fact is it happens, union reps have used intimidation to try to boost their memberships and what fear is their on thier part to have the ballots of do we form a union or not be secret, this new law eliminates the voting entirely since it says all they have to do is get the signatures on the cards.

Shall we just shift the entire system to petitions, Sign this petition to have X for president? The idea of a secret ballot is to protect the voter from outside influence, and let them vote thier mind. This new law wants to take that away.

BTW if you read what I wrote I said bullying of the employees by both union and employers, not the union screwing the employer.



You are actually right (not)

The union I belong to would have been destroyed years ago by physical, legal, and psychological intimidation except for the fact that our union rank and file have to agree by majority vote to any changes.

Do me a favor, Archer, and research the actual costs of paying a union rank and file, versus how much the employer profits by the exchange.

A good place to begin your education into labor laws would be to research Walmart.  Paying special attention to the fact that Walmart has employee development classes to teach their employees how to apply for government subsidies (in simple terms, the money you pay the government in taxes) to supplement their meager income.

Let me know how you research goes.

Sinergy

p.s. I would suggest not listening to Rush Limbaugh, his opinion of this is rather skewed.


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:45:15 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Yes. The National Association of Manufacturers issued a press release about Cheney's speech to them on Valentine's Day. Probably needless to say, NAM opposes the bill--purely out of concern for employees, I'm sure.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:45:57 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Nope wouldn';t count it as unbiased either so read it with whatever measure of sal you think it needs

It was the first google hit that made the point that it happens, union stewards and their "henchmen" have been known to use intimidation, in fact there are stereotypes that show it in all sorts of TV shows and movies it is in fact cliche.
But behind the stereotypes there is often enough truth to certainly claim it does happen.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:48:30 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		How about addressing the issue instead of side stepping Snergy What about the law as proposed do you favor?
I'm not the one interested in hashing out Unions Good or Unions Bad
I said it right from the start.

I'm interested in discussing the changing of the law in how unions organize in a "shop".



(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:48:32 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		You can listen to Rush, but as always, listen Critically, to what the impotent drug addict has to say.

And anyone who doesn't think that strongarm tactics isn't the unspoken name of the game just never worked in NYC.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:50:13 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Plenty of exaples of union thugs intimidating folks into signing the union cards can be found with a little effort.
Hey John you know Bruno (6ft 6 in 300#) we wanted to talk to you about forming a union here all you need to do is sign this card."

http://www.nlpc.org/view.asp?action=viewArticle&aid=937

Hows the fire bombing of a NON Union Worker for a union steward screwing an employee?

Or lets see how many "Scabs" have been shot and killed? They are employees too.

Fact is it happens, union reps have used intimidation to try to boost their memberships and what fear is their on thier part to have the ballots of do we form a union or not be secret, this new law eliminates the voting entirely since it says all they have to do is get the signatures on the cards.

Shall we just shift the entire system to petitions, Sign this petition to have X for president? The idea of a secret ballot is to protect the voter from outside influence, and let them vote thier mind. This new law wants to take that away.

BTW if you read what I wrote I said bullying of the employees by both union and employers, not the union screwing the employer.



Lovely non-response.

My question was for you to provide reasonable examples of unions screwing the employers in such a way that their company want tango uniform.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 8:59:48 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		And my statement had nothing about any such thing happening.
My statement addressed the idea that union organizers have used intimidation against EMPLOYEES to get them enough votes to bring the union into a shop.

Two entirely different things, you're trying to drag me off into something I specificly didn't want to address because I find it not relevent to the topic the OP presented.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:02:11 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

How about addressing the issue instead of side stepping Snergy What about the law as proposed do you favor?
I'm not the one interested in hashing out Unions Good or Unions Bad
I said it right from the start.

I'm interested in discussing the changing of the law in how unions organize in a "shop".





Lovely concept, Archer.

For your education, please research what corporate entitities propose the legislation.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Unionization Bill Threatened with Veto - 2/15/2007 9:03:25 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Was there a conviction in that case you posted? Without a conviction it really is not a story that has much merit

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 60
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