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RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 12:54:31 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCameron

Well said :) and if I ever meet you, I'd like to buy you a drink.


I hear you are not all that far from me...I have been threatening to hit the Toronto scene for quite a bit...instead of a drink, how about a tour of a local dungeon???

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to MsCameron)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 12:58:15 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Kindly direct me to the book of right and wrong.... where it is all spelled out in black and white for me.


How about the marriage vows? To love, honor and cherish, forsaking all others? Is that black and white enough? The person that goes outside the marriage without the knowledge and consent of their spouse is in NO way honoring them and the spouse is the one being forsaken.... Just my opinion.

Jewel

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Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:01:09 PM   
quietkitten


Posts: 1082
Joined: 2/5/2005
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		Do you know all of the circumstances around the infidelity????

and...... How do you know that I don't believe in fidelity... did I ever say that?

I am simply saying that there is no book of right and wrong.... everyone has their own values, and having someone elses shoved down my throat gets me riled.

_____________________________

The number 1 cause of stress is reality.

I miss my old Avatar :(

<< I am a depressed procrastinator with Alzheimers -- I am going to end it all.... tomorrow... or the next day.

Now what was I talking about again?

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:02:41 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
How about the marriage vows? To love, honor and cherish, forsaking all others? Is that black and white enough? The person that goes outside the marriage without the knowledge and consent of their spouse is in NO way honoring them and the spouse is the one being forsaken....


But what does any of that have to do with "right" and "wrong". If you are saying it is (in your opinion) wrong for you to break those vows, then I say, good for you!!! If you say that it is wrong for me to break those vows, then I ask where it is written that breaking any vow is "wrong."

Because you share a sense of "right" and "wrong" with a number of people, it does not make that sense universal, or even valid beyond your own experience.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:03:57 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: quietkitten
having someone elses shoved down my throat gets me riled.


You tell 'em...you crazy saber wielding pirate cat!!! *wink*

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to quietkitten)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:08:52 PM   
quietkitten


Posts: 1082
Joined: 2/5/2005
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		Ok... you are starting to scare me!

We never agree. Is the world coming to an end????

*taps foot... and where's my peanut butter cookie?

< Message edited by quietkitten -- 3/14/2005 1:10:55 PM >

_____________________________

The number 1 cause of stress is reality.

I miss my old Avatar :(

<< I am a depressed procrastinator with Alzheimers -- I am going to end it all.... tomorrow... or the next day.

Now what was I talking about again?

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:14:01 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Will keep this short, as I think Taggard's doing a good job of posting my views.

I don't think there is anything at all wrong with the opening poster posting her views. I think it's great that she has a strong opinion on the issue, and though I believe her way of thinking is based on a flawed perspective I don't think any less of her for expressing it.

Riotgirl, if you feel so strongly on the issue, why post in such an aggressive fashion? If the issue is something that makes you angry enough to write about it, why not try and influence change instead of ranting? Lots of people would agree with you, for the reasons you listed. Ranting might make you feel better, but it also alienates the people who you would otherwise try to be helping?

There's a lot of bad things done in the world. When you drive five miles over the speed limit, you're breaking the law. In many states, having oral sex is against the law. God help people who have sex with someone who is of the same sex. Cheating is hardly a black and white issue, because what one person considers cheating might not be the same as another. Kissing could be considered cheating right? Imagine how a man would laugh if the wife sued for divorce, because he was caught kissing... his mother! The same way he has since he was six years old.

I'm the first to say that people who are cheating are playing with fire. They are usually doing things that are potentially dangerous to themselves, their spouses, their children, etc etc. I also know that they have their own gods and higher powers to answer to, not me. My biggest issue with cheating is that in the end, the person doing it could be living a far more satisfying and enjoyable life if they came clean with their primary partner, and took a firm grip on their own lives. If the person they married loves them, they should do their best to support and love. If they do not, there's a good chance the relationship is doomed anyway, and best put out of it's misery. Unfortunately, neither situations are black and white.

At the same time, no one situation is different. Do we consider BDSM 'interaction' to be cheating? If (more common for male submissives/slaves) the Ms relationship is strictly non-sexual in nature, does it cross the boundry? Is a man who goes to a Dominatrix because his wife is intolerant of anything BDSM cheating (considering most Pro's have a completely no-sex policy?)

The issue isn't really about cheating. It's about trust. I have the trust of my partner to do certain things, and not to do certain things, things that we both agreed on in the beginning. If I break her trust, or she breaks mine, it is an issue for her and I. No amount of preaching or brimstone and fire will make my situation any better or worse.

Stephan

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(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:21:14 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
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quote:

But what does any of that have to do with "right" and "wrong". If you are saying it is (in your opinion) wrong for you to break those vows, then I say, good for you!!! If you say that it is wrong for me to break those vows, then I ask where it is written that breaking any vow is "wrong."


I never said it was "wrong", I said it is dishonorable. Whether behaving in a dishonorable manor is right or wrong fully depends on what you (generic "you") can live with. I know how I felt when it happened to me.. did I feel like I was wronged?... Big time! Did I feel disrespected? Yep. Is it victimless? Nope. When there is a victim, regardless if it is the wife that found her husband cheating (or vise versa) or the person that just discovered they were robbed, even the mutilation of female genetalia.... when there is a victim that has suffered some sort of harm, emotional, physical or otherwise...... a wrong has occured. Not because the person that committed these acts feels like it was wrong, not because they feel remorseful, not even because they got caught, but simply because there was a victim. As someone else said, put yourself in the victims shoes then tell us it's ok.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:33:44 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
I never said it was "wrong", I said it is dishonorable.


Exactly...now what does that have to do with the discussion that was being had before you started talking about honor? Are you just interested in having a discussion about honor and thought this might be as good a place as any to start it? *smile*

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:40:09 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

BTW, looking at another woman and drooling over her is not cheating, it's lust. :)


In your Opinion...(adds disclaimer for you)


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.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:47:04 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: quietkitten
*taps foot... and where's my peanut butter cookie?


I have Nutter Butters...will those do?

You'll have to come to Rochester, NY to collect!

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to quietkitten)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:49:39 PM   
ruffnecksbabygir


Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I am simply saying that there is no book of right and wrong.... everyone has their own values, and having someone elses shoved down my throat gets me riled.


having someone's values or lack of values shoved down my throat without being able to speak my own mind get's me riled up too! If you believe that being dishonest is only wrong if the person thinks it's wrong that's up to you, i can't and won't try to change your mind .... expressing my own opinion is somehow shoving it down your throat, yet you expressing yours isn't?


by the way, i tried posting prior to this one and wasn't getting through, guess it was when the thread was being moved.



_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to quietkitten)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:50:14 PM   
MsCameron


Posts: 238
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCameron

quote:

It is a recognazation that there is no great moral authority, and that we all are responsible for our values and judgments. It opens the possibility that those who do things that we do not approve, might instead just be doing things we don't understand.


In everything I've read today, this one really hit.

Well said :) and if I ever meet you, I'd like to buy you a drink.

MsC



It is merely an objective assessment based on opinion as opposed to fact. 75% of the US population alone would beg to differ with you. The founding forefathers of the United States would beg to differ with you. The United States Constitution bears evidence that would beg to differ with you. US Law would beg to differ with you.

I have trouble saluting an opinion as a definitive answer. Not that I wouldn't by them a drink of course, just not on that premise.


AAARGH I can't type today.


Well then, it's probably a good thing I'm not American :) LOL

I just liked what Taggard wrote. I didn't say it would solve the worlds problems but it may be a good start.

smile,
MsC


_____________________________

I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out. Keep going, going...
Lateralis.Tool

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:52:43 PM   
MsCameron


Posts: 238
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCameron

Well said :) and if I ever meet you, I'd like to buy you a drink.


I hear you are not all that far from me...I have been threatening to hit the Toronto scene for quite a bit...instead of a drink, how about a tour of a local dungeon???

Taggard


No problem :) Just let me know when you're coming my way.

MsC


_____________________________

I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out. Keep going, going...
Lateralis.Tool

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:55:09 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
I never said it was "wrong", I said it is dishonorable.


Exactly...now what does that have to do with the discussion that was being had before you started talking about honor? Are you just interested in having a discussion about honor and thought this might be as good a place as any to start it? *smile*

Taggard



When I married, I wanted to 'obey'. Master thought about it. And declined. Why? Because He knows me, better than I know myself. He decided on the word, honour. Honouring Him is much more important. It means I am allowed to disagree and voice those to Him. It means that I do not follow blindly. This suits Him. Does that mean I don't have to obey Him, just because I never said them? Of course not.

Just to add to such... if we are talking about honour, obey and other such vows. Vows are personally made. Maybe, someone had the words honour in their vows. Maybe they didn't. How about obey? Maybe sticking to those words are important to them. Maybe not. Personal choice hey.

There are victims everywhere. Look around. Your black and white affects them everyday, whether you realise it or not.

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 1:56:48 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir

having someone's values or lack of values shoved down my throat without being able to speak my own mind get's me riled up too! If you believe that being dishonest is only wrong if the person thinks it's wrong that's up to you, i can't and won't try to change your mind .... expressing my own opinion is somehow shoving it down your throat, yet you expressing yours isn't?


Here is the point you are missing: when you say it is wrong, you are implying (by not adding the qualifier "for me") that it is wrong for everyone. This implies that you have the right to say what is right and wrong for everyone. People take that as having something shoved down their throat. No one is trying to tell you what is "right or wrong" for you, but we ask that you do not tell us what is "right or wrong" for us.

It really is quite hard to admit that there is no universal right or wrong. That the moral authority simply does not exist. It was mentioned that 75% of the USA can't do it...wouldn't surprise me if this number is low. It takes a strong sense of moral conviction to hold to your own sense of value while admitting that it has no support other then your own sense of right and wrong.

Taggard


< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 3/14/2005 1:57:11 PM >

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 2:03:29 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
dear ruffnecksbabygir

... Firstly, I never said once that you personally had pushed anything down someones throat. If you are willing, go back and read what I wrote and open your mind to understand. If you do not wish to, that is your choice.

Secondly.

quote:

If you believe that being dishonest is only wrong if the person thinks it's wrong that's up to you, i can't and won't try to change your mind


I did not say this either. What I said was that what is wrong or right for you, is not going to be what is right or wrong for another. Whethers it is ok or not, is not the issue. I have no desire to make that choice for someone else, do you?

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 2:05:02 PM   
ruffnecksbabygir


Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline 		Taggard,

i understand what you're saying.... but why do i need to point out that i feel being unfaithful is wrong "for me" when i believe it is wrong ::period:: is that the law? of course not...obviously it is my opinion and mine only....and i really get tired of having to say "personally" or "in my opinion" or "for me" .... it's ridiculously over used ... yes, i do only speak for myself, i am not trying to shove anything down anyones throat no matter how tempting that sounds .... i am simply expressing my views...i believe there is such a thing as right and wrong, not only " for me" but for all....you obviously do not agree, and that is fine, you have the right to believe that anything goes .... i have just as much right to believe otherwise.

now.... please pass the nutter butters. ty

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 2:06:36 PM   
ruffnecksbabygir


Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline 		no no angel, wasn't refering to you, my post was in response to kitten.

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Putting it straight AGAIN - 3/14/2005 2:19:34 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
i believe there is such a thing as right and wrong, not only " for me" but for all....


If that is really your belief, then I ask where this "right and wrong for all" comes from? Who dictated it to you? Why do you think it applies to all?

Taggard


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)
Profile   Post #: 60
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