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How to get called names - 2/15/2007 4:33:10 PM

WyrdRich

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      I've stepped in hornets nest before, and 'stepped on my dick,' as a favorite Uncle likes to put it. I managed to do both, simultaneously in here last night. My Irish blood gets to flowing when it comes to Free Speech and that was part of the problem. I touched one of "those" topics without measuring my words very carefully and chaos ensued.

   But it has had me thinking about "those" topics. The ones we aren't allowed to get close to (Not in terms of TOS here, no worries Mods). Among the more marginal books on my shelves, is a collection put together by Jim Keith. In the preface, he lists five topics he ticked off at a panel discussion on censorship. He wasn't endorsing them, I'm not endorsing them, simply noting that they exist.

      1) Racial correlation to IQ
      2) Homosexuality as pathology
      3) Holocaust revisionism (i.e. did 6 million die?).
      4) AIDS as military bio-warfare
      5) Application of the same rules and procedures to AIDS victims as to victims of other communicable diseases

     The book is from '93, so the last predates a lot of the medical advances since then.


    Based on my experience last night, I would add to the list of things nobody is allowed to discuss in a "free" society;

     6) A link between Islam and violence.

     What are your thoughts on this? I may despise what somebody says, think it was an incredibly dumb thing to say, even hold it against them permanently (Hanoi Jane for instance) but you'll never find me telling someone they don't have a right to speak their minds.

      Are there any other things we just can't say?

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 4:39:42 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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May I recommend reading "Nature Via Nurture", it'll kill a good amount of ignorance on at least one of these subjects in my opinion. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 2/15/2007 4:40:10 PM >

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 4:52:29 PM

WyrdRich

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I'll put that on my list (I actually have one) of books to read when I get back to being a heavy reader. I am in no way endorsing any of the ideas in the first five, only noting they exist. The sixth is my own addition to the list and I'd rather not see the thread go into a discussion of any of them.

Why can't people even approach these subjects without chaos ensuing is the topic I'm shooting for.

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 4:58:03 PM

dcnovice

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The answer varies by group, I think. Plenty of religious right folks will happily talk about the pathology of homosexuality, but wouldn't want to hear about evidence for a biological basis to same-sex orientation.

Many liberals, to take a different group, talk comfortably about capitalism's flaws but not its benefits.

I do know from my work life that folks in educational publishing are incredibly gun-shy about covering evolution. That's because school boards, fearing rabid parents, are nervous about adopting materials that treat the matter candidly.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 2/15/2007 5:02:36 PM >

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 4:58:20 PM

missturbation

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Hmm you make a thread with ideas contained in it that you know will cause blood to boil and question why?
I think you knew exactly what response you would get to this thread and were aiming for just that.

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 4:58:26 PM

Zensee

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I think if you said "a link between religious fundamentalism and violence" it would be less controversial. Why single out Islam?

The first three are pure crap (IMHO) and are simply incendiary. People advancing them as serious discussion points have questionable grasps on reality, history and science, unless one considers outright lies, demonstrable worthy of "reasoned debate". Why suffer fools except to have the opportunity to identify and refute them?

Number 4 - what does that mean, AIDS as bio-warfare? What specific aspect of that topic applies? Does Kieth mean wondering aloud if it was engineered for that purpose or does he mean we should put it (or any pathogen) to such use? Or is there another sense he chooses that specific disease in that particular context?

Number 5 - I didn't know this was a no go topic.

Jim Kieth's thesis here seems a bit personal, arbitrary and scattered actually.

Good topic though.

Z.

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:01:01 PM

ShiftedJewel

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Well... I think it could be because it reeks of racism. Why don't you try switching the forth word with African American, or jewish, or catholic... how about hispanic... they are all interchangable nouns and they all have one thing in common. Racism.

Jewel

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:01:13 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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Because our ability to reason is not detached from our instincts like the hunger for power, and the need to be with the group most like yourself to feel safe.
...And because these statements are hate and ignorance based.

Unless someone is doing a study with all the factors controlled, what he thinks or wishes were true are not valid; they're simply opinions based on his limited experience and ignorance of anything different. Placing your values higher on the higherachical scale of things we deem good, true and important don't make them so to the rest of the planet. M

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:01:15 PM

dcnovice

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Just thought of another one. Harper's had an interesting article a while back about how no one was willing to confront the possibility that the Ohio vote was rigged in 2004.

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:04:22 PM

WyrdRich

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Hmm you make a thread with ideas contained in it that you know will cause blood to boil and question why?
I think you knew exactly what response you would get to this thread and were aiming for just that.

That's an excellent point MissT, but there are lots of topics that get the blood boiling, we do it all the time in here. What is it about these? And are we really free to speak our minds if there is any conversation we simply can't have?

(in reply to missturbation)

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:08:16 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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Of course you're free to speak your mind as long as the owners of CM aren't offended. If being called names is your kink, carry on.
Moi, am done here. M

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:09:38 PM

missturbation

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In my opinion because topics such as 6) A link between Islam and violence. are blatant racism they get peoples backs up.
I don't think there is any topic we cant talk about - well except the banned ones for the site. I just think some are better steered clear of.
Unforunately things like weight threads, sub vs slave threads are posted with the intention of irking people and we all bite.
Our own opinions are valid to us and when we cant get others to see them we sometimes get frustrated and lose our cool - its unavoidable.

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:10:24 PM

WyrdRich

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Evolution vs. Creation is definitely one that gets the people going, DC, but it gets aired fairly often. I think '04 Ohio is more a case of people not wanting to repeat the shot in the foot of Florida '00.

Thanks for the replies (and an open mind last night).

(in reply to dcnovice)

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:11:30 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

I'll put that on my list (I actually have one) of books to read when I get back to being a heavy reader. I am in no way endorsing any of the ideas in the first five, only noting they exist. The sixth is my own addition to the list and I'd rather not see the thread go into a discussion of any of them.

Why can't people even approach these subjects without chaos ensuing is the topic I'm shooting for.

Hello A/all,

I will take a crack at this one.

What seems to happen is a topic is broached which creates an adrenalin response in the reader. One of the aspects of adrenalin is that natural selection determined a long time ago that blood supply should be provided to the large muscles, the lungs, etc., in order to run away or fight the Tyrannosaurus Rex. Additionally, it was determined by natural selection that one probably would not need to balance one's checkbook, engage in logical and rational discourse, etc., while fighting the Tyrannosaurus Rex., so the brain is left wanting blood supply. The brain is a greedy organ; it doesnt like being deprived and gets tense.

To bring this back to the topic in question.

1) Person reads something which causes them to experience an adrenalin reaction.

2) Higher brain function shuts off.

3) Person resorts to whatever programming is inherent in their limbic system vis a vis adrenalin. This can be fight, flight, or flee.

a) Person gets outraged and lashes out at those whose opinions differ, without bothering or being able to reason. This would be "fight."

b) Person gets verbally defensive (flight) and attempts to tell the big, bad Tyrannosaurus Rex that they are just being mean or misunderstood what the person was trying to post.

c) The person stands there gazing at the conflict, unable to process. This would be freeze.

People intending to create chaos on message boards know that certain topics will cause the viewer to have an emotional melt-down and the resulting chaos, and will "pick the scab" in order to ensure chaos reigns.

I have posted what Peyton Quinn wrote before, to whit "Either you are in control of yourself, or somebody else is."

A person who allows themselves to be drawn into these sorts of conflicts is allowing the other person to have control of their emotional space.

The problem, WyrdRich, is that too many people wear their hearts and emotions and opinions as a chip on their shoulders, and go through life waiting for somebody to knock it off.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:20:51 PM

WyrdRich

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Thanks for your reply, Sinergy. Some interesting thoughts. Are you suggesting that because people will get an adrenaline response, we should just never talk about ANYTHING that might cause such? How would we ever reach resolution on anything? If my neighbor is just going to flip out if I try to talk to him about the damn yelping puppy left outside all night, should I just endure? Move?

I don't think your solution is very workable.

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:29:43 PM

domiguy

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Tough topics....Sorry about the names...misspelled as they were...lol. Ya got chootzpah!!!

It's just that it is hard to make such broad generalizations about one specific group of people....Are Christians or Americans violent? More violent than Muslims? I guess it not only depends on which Christians or Americans but at what time specifically are you speaking of and who you would ask....Let me be even more vague....Are countries with a vast number of poor (3rd world) more violent than those that are not?

As an American are we concerned about all Muslims or only those of Arabic decent? The kid who shot up the mall was a Muslim....Yet I don't get the least bit apprehensive when taking a flight and I am sitting next someone who is Croatian or Serbian.

Brings us to another point...Racial profiling...If we are on a flight don't we look extra hard at the person of Arabian decent.....It sucks...and I curse myself for doing it...But Shit! I do. Rambling on now.

We are at different ends of the political spectrum...But I have to say, that your thread last night was worded extremely poorly...However, every time someone commits a violent act I hope the first thing we jump to isn't the thought that it is racially,politically or religiously motivated.

We live in a tough time...In my life I can't remeber a time when our country was so divided politically where we live in fear of our neighbors (next door or globally)
PC has gone awry....So you just have to pay a little better attention to spot the people you should avoid....It sucks.

No real answers here.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/15/2007 5:35:13 PM >

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:35:06 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

It's just that it is hard to make such broad generalizations about one specific group of people.

It's not just hard; it's dangerous. We can all think of generalizations that were or are used in an oppressive way. Take the antebellum belief that blacks were too dumb for anything but enslavement. Awareness of such a toxic generalization makes people nervous about getting anywhere near related subjects (such as whether there's a link between race and IQ). I think that's a key part of what fuels the self-censorship that Rich is concerned about.

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:38:23 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

Thanks for your reply, Sinergy. Some interesting thoughts. Are you suggesting that because people will get an adrenaline response, we should just never talk about ANYTHING that might cause such? How would we ever reach resolution on anything? If my neighbor is just going to flip out if I try to talk to him about the damn yelping puppy left outside all night, should I just endure? Move?

I don't think your solution is very workable.

I did not offer a solution, WyrdRich.

You asked a question. I gave you an answer.

I dont know what the solution is. Various ideas come to mind, like mandatory charm school, psychotropic medications, mandatory conscription, banishment for manner dysfunctions, but I suspect many of these are
obstructively cynical on my part.

Sinergy

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"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:49:51 PM

juliaoceania

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I think that it is ok to discuss a link between religion and violence, but when one states one religion is violent and lets all others off the hook, well I am going to call that person on that view. It is not that you cannot talk about it, you did, but we did not agree with you and we stated why we did not agree with you. You have the freedom to say almost any hair-brained thing you like, but that does not mean we do not have the freedom to disagree.

In order to make a serious case that you do not have the freedom to state what you did you would have to show me how your freedom was infringed.

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RE: How to get called names - 2/15/2007 5:57:18 PM

WyrdRich

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Various ideas come to mind, ..., but I suspect many of these are
obstructively cynical on my part.

Sinergy

Well, recognizing the problem is the first step.

No, you didn't offer a solution. It was inaccurate of me to say otherwise. If your analysis of the situation is correct though, then the solution would be that people must be forced to conform. That I'm going to have a problem with. The kind of problem where I go join somebody's Army of Resistance and bring my own ammo.

There is a quote from H.L. Mencken in that same preface. "The whole drift of law is toward the absolute prohibition of all ideas that that diverge in the slightest from the accepted platitudes, and behind the drift of that law is the far more potent force of growing custom, and under the that custom there is a national philosophy which erects conformity into the noblest of virtues and the free functioning of the personality into a capital crime against society." (I hated reading Mencken, every sentence two or three times, but he was worth it.)

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