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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 10:24:20 AM   
Devilslilsister


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i always thought that time is something that humans created so they know when to eat dinner. 

But now i'm just mildly curious if LadyEllen is an alien....


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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 11:55:34 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Or maybe something else?
If there is such a thing as "eternity" then wouldn't time have to be circular?



It's linear..(I have proof)  ---> http://home.tiscali.nl/annejan/swf/timeline.swf

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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 11:57:34 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

i always thought that time is something that humans created so they know when to eat dinner. 

But now i'm just mildly curious if LadyEllen is an alien....



No, not an alien.

Just look like one.

E

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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 1:03:10 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

What deep question.  Isn't the current scientific thinking on the subject that Time is part of something called Time/Space, which is curved.  I suppose that makes it circular, according to the experts.  I am going to go off the deepend now and partly agree with real.  Time doesn't really exist.Time is relative, and subjective based.  What we experience as the flow of time is a perception, not reality.  The universe could be seen as an infinitely small moment or an infinitly large eternity.  Traveling at differnt speeds affects the flow of Time, this has been demonstrated by science.  Gravity for instance seems to be outside of the constraints of Time, and is instantly transmitted accross distances.  Time is what you percieve it as, be that circular, linear, or a flying spaghetti monster.

Or I maybe I ate too much paper in the 80s...


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1   Time doesn't really exist.   

Time does exist because we created it.  Time exists as a tool of interval measure that we created to measure things with exactly as a ruler was created as a means of interval measure of distance or a scale is interval measure of weight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1   What we experience as the flow of time is a perception, not reality.   

Time does not flow, time is nothing more than a mathematical representation of an interval series that we apply as a measurement system.

Our perception of time is irrelevant to its use as a interval measuring tool.

when we drop an anvil on our toe we can observe the anvil traveling through the air and in reality know that our toes are about to get smashed.  Contrary if we move our toes in the nick of "time" our toe will not get smashed.  Therefore the actions that we use time to define is very real.  Keeping in mind time itself is nothing more than a tool or system of measurement and many people confuse or interchange time with the action being measured by time and vice versa.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1   Traveling at differnt speeds affects the flow of Time, this has been demonstrated by science.   

Here is the case in point: 2 clocks one moving and one stationary only proved there is a time variance in results based on our abilites to accurately measure time under various circumstances and in various media and thus to get an accurate measurement would need to "fudge" the differences until we find and accurate means of directly measuring within that media or under varying circumstance.  

It does not suggest or imply a deficiency or "flaw" in the measurement system in itself or that the measurement system should somehow be redefined to account for our inabilities to properly measure the occurance due to physical constraints of the measuring device.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1   Gravity for instance seems to be outside of the constraints of Time, and is instantly transmitted accross distances.   

the effects of gravity effects our ability to accurately measure time.  If the earths gravity were to change by 1g instantly it would take time albeit much less time than light, for someone on a planet that is a billion light years away to be capable of measuring the change.  

Nothing that i am aware of supercedes being measured by time as we know and understand it. Again these are instrument and device limitations, not a limitation of "time" itself.

Should there ever be an instance where there is a need then we would have to create a different interval measurement system to fit that specific domain to accurately describe it.  After all that is the only reason we have time in the first place.  as a means of interval measurement.






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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 2:43:29 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINALluckydog1
Gravity for instance seems to be outside of the constraints of Time, and is instantly transmitted across distances.


This thread is absolutely fantabulous. All of the deep rooted weaknesses in physics/cosmology are being exposed.
Time vis a vis eternity both looking back and forward 
Ditto with space without end.
The total absurdity of a force being transmitted instantaneously over distance. In a vacuum to boot.

Popeye...how did you do it ?  he he he he he 

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/16/2007 2:46:38 PM >

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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 3:54:07 PM   
Zensee


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Let's not be celebrating the death of science just yet, seeks. The speculations of amateurs on a BDSM forum hardly qualify as peer review, even laced with the inflated opinions of certain self declared experts and their "universe next door" black box excuses.

Regardless of broader questions about its nature, time is experienced by organic beings as a one way trip. Evolutionary theory and the mechanism of natural selection is in no way indicted by speculations on time travel, no matter how much bad science fiction the topic generates. All organic beings are time binding both in their genetics and in their perceptions. Humans especially are creatures of memory and abstraction. We store the past and imagine the future. Time for us is neither illusional nor delusional - it is essential.


Z.


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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 4:17:30 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Fair point Zensee, I have said before that I am more scientifically than artistically inclined...but many in the scientific community have an arrogance and a certainty about their chosen field that deserves to be exposed.

Science EXPLAINS very little. Where it tries we end up with tautological nonsenses like Darwinism.
It successfully models and manipulates via engineering and technology a lot.

With advanced mathematics almost anything appears possible.

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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 4:43:52 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Fair point Zensee, I have said before that I am more scientifically than artistically inclined...but many in the scientific community have an arrogance and a certainty about their chosen field that deserves to be exposed.

Science EXPLAINS very little. Where it tries we end up with tautological nonsenses like Darwinism.
It successfully models and manipulates via engineering and technology a lot.

With advanced mathematics almost anything appears possible.


yeh its easy to get a twistee in the undies with this stuff...  

One of my favorites is time travel.  Begs the question where are all the visitors from the future?

Anyone seen the movie 50 first dates?

We perceive time by day night other events that mark a period or interval.   

If you were to put someone in a situation where there is no intelligible markers to discern an interval there would be no way a person would have any idea of how much time passed over say a year or 2.

women i suppose could measure time with their 21 day cycle and keep track of that, but then that would be a marker at least till they are older and no longer have them.




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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 7:59:18 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
It's linear..(I have proof)  --->
http://home.tiscali.nl/annejan/swf/timeline.swf

That is so beautiful, LS.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
if time is linear wouldn't it have had to start at a certain point?

It circles into the other universe at any point in time, but as we are only able to perceive our own universe of space, we are unaware of the multidirectionality of time. We perceive only its unidirectional projection.
 
Time has always existed and will always exist and therefore its perceived noncircularity and unidirectionality poses no problem in conceptual science.
 
Post 37 by LE has profound cosmological / spiritual insight. She said as much in another, earlier thread.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/16/2007 8:20:01 PM >

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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 8:25:56 PM   
farglebargle


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http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15%20--%20science%20vs%20faith.png

Paradoxically, perhaps, people need both flowcharts.

Weird, but there you are.

Abridged Excerpt: Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett
Thursday June 7, 2001
Guardian Unlimited

quote:


According to the First Scroll of Wen the Eternally Surprised, Wen stepped out of the cave where he had received enlightenment and into the dawning light of the first day of the rest of his life. He stared at the rising sun for some time, because he had never seen it before.

He prodded with a sandal the dozing form of Clodpool the apprentice, and said: 'I have seen. Now I understand.'

Then he stopped, and looked at the thing next to Clodpool.

'What is that amazing thing?' he said.

'Er . . . er . . . it's a tree, master,' said Clodpool, still not quite awake. 'Remember? It was there yesterday.'

'There was no yesterday.'

'Er . . . er . . . I think there was, master,' said Clodpool, struggling to his feet. 'Remember? We came up here and I cooked a meal, and had the rind off your sklang because you didn't want it.'

'I remember yesterday,' said Wen thoughtfully. 'But the memory is in my head now. Was yesterday real? Or is it only the memory that is real? Truly, yesterday I was not born.'

Clodpool's face became a mask of agonized incomprehension.

'Dear stupid Clodpool, I have learned everything,' said Wen. 'In the cup of the hand there is no past, no future. There is only now. There is no time but the present. We have a great deal to do.'

Clodpool hesitated. There was something new about his master. There was a glow in his eyes and, when he moved, there were strange silvery-blue lights in the air, like reflections from liquid mirrors.

'She has told me everything,' Wen went on. 'I know that time was made for men, not the other way round. I have learned how to shape it and bend it. I know how to make a moment last for ever, because it already has. And I can teach these skills even to you, Clodpool. I have heard the heartbeat of the universe. I know the answers to many questions. Ask me.'

The apprentice gave him a bleary look. It was too early in the morning for it to be early in the morning. That was the only thing that he currently knew for sure.

'Er . . . what does master want for breakfast?' he said.

Wen looked down from their camp and across the snowfields and purple mountains to the golden daylight creating the world, and mused upon certain aspects of humanity.

'Ah,' he said. 'One of the difficult ones.'

***

For something to exist, it has to be observed.

For something to exist, it has to have a position in time and space.

And this explains why nine-tenths of the mass of the universe is unaccounted for.

Nine-tenths of the universe is the knowledge of the position and direction of everything in the other tenth. Every atom has its biography, every star its file, every chemical exchange its equivalent of the inspector with a clipboard. It is unaccounted for because it is doing the accounting for the rest of it, and you cannot see the back of your own head.

Nine-tenths of the universe, in fact, is the paperwork.

And if you want the story, then remember that a story does not unwind. It weaves. Events that start in different places and different times all bear down on that one tiny point in space-time, which is the perfect moment.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/16/2007 8:31:24 PM >


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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 10:00:42 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
It's linear..(I have proof)  --->
http://home.tiscali.nl/annejan/swf/timeline.swf

That is so beautiful, LS.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
if time is linear wouldn't it have had to start at a certain point?

It circles into the other universe at any point in time, but as we are only able to perceive our own universe of space, we are unaware of the multidirectionality of time. We perceive only its unidirectional projection.
 
Time has always existed and will always exist and therefore its perceived noncircularity and unidirectionality poses no problem in conceptual science.
 
Post 37 by LE has profound cosmological / spiritual insight. She said as much in another, earlier thread.


Rule, that's the problem that a lot of people have; "time has always existed and will always exist."
If it "exists" who or what created it? And "when" was it created?
Time could certainly be circular and human beings couldn't recognise that because it was too large to measure in human terms i.e. like a thousand trillion years in our time being equal to a hundred trillionth of a second in the big sceme of things.
I would guess that time is circular because the circle or oval is the most perfect shape in nature.
If I'm right we've all done this before and we'll keep doing it again and again!
I really do think that "God" whatever or whoever that is put humans on this planet for His, Her, It's personal entertainment!
Also, would "time" be the same thing in another galaxy as it is here?
Or even on another planet like Saturn, Neptune or Jupitor?
Does it take Jupitor say like 8 of our days to form 1 day on Jupitor?
Oh, Jupitor isn't solid, it's a planet of gas.
If you can "bend" time like Einstein's theory tells us wouldn't that make it "circular?"

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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 10:50:42 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

http://www.wellingtongrey.net/miscellanea/archive/2007-01-15%20--%20science%20vs%20faith.png




fb that is fucking hilarious i saved it!  LMFAO


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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 11:14:08 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Rule, that's the problem that a lot of people have; "time has always existed and will always exist."
If it "exists" who or what created it?

The Creator created it. Satan willed it. The Maker made it. The female Gods supported them.
The Divine initiated and complied.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And "when" was it created?

"When" no time was. The Divine is outside time, both eternal and "ineternal", as time is limited to our universe and the other universe only.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Time could certainly be circular and human beings couldn't recognise that because it was too large to measure in human terms i.e. like a thousand trillion years in our time being equal to a hundred trillionth of a second in the big sceme of things.
I would guess that time is circular because the circle or oval is the most perfect shape in nature.

The time that we perceive is only the tangent to the circle, it is an intersection or projection. Interlock your hands by the fingers. A being on the palm of one hand is not able to perceive the other palm by definition, but it will perceive the intersection, which limits the size of its own palm. That intersection is unidirectional time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
If I'm right we've all done this before and we'll keep doing it again and again!

No, but we or rather the different parts of our mind are reincarnated again and again, provided that the parts are not defective, in which case they will be deleted and trashed. As LE has stated and as the Buddha has experienced and testified, this process may not be limited by the unidirectionality and sequentiality of time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
I really do think that "God" whatever or whoever that is put humans on this planet for His, Her, It's personal entertainment!

Egyptian mythology unequivocally states that the Creator created the world and the other gods (and humans) in order not to be lonely himself. We may extrapolate this motive to the Divine of which the Creator and the other gods are exponents.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Also, would "time" be the same thing in another galaxy as it is here?
Or even on another planet like Saturn, Neptune or Jupitor?

Yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Oh, Jupitor isn't solid, it's a planet of gas.

Presumably it has a metallic core, just like Earth and any other planet and ordinary star.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
If you can "bend" time like Einstein's theory tells us wouldn't that make it "circular?"

The hypothesis of general relativity is incorrect.

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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/16/2007 11:28:03 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Rule, that's the problem that a lot of people have; "time has always existed and will always exist."
If it "exists" who or what created it?

The Creator created it. Satan willed it. The Maker made it. The female Gods supported them.
The Divine initiated and complied.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And "when" was it created?

"When" no time was. The Divine is outside time, both eternal and "ineternal", as time is limited to our universe and the other universe only.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Time could certainly be circular and human beings couldn't recognise that because it was too large to measure in human terms i.e. like a thousand trillion years in our time being equal to a hundred trillionth of a second in the big sceme of things.
I would guess that time is circular because the circle or oval is the most perfect shape in nature.

The time that we perceive is only the tangent to the circle, it is an intersection or projection. Interlock your hands by the fingers. A being on the palm of one hand is not able to perceive the other palm by definition, but it will perceive the intersection, which limits the size of its own palm. That intersection is unidirectional time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
If I'm right we've all done this before and we'll keep doing it again and again!

No, but we or rather the different parts of our mind are reincarnated again and again, provided that the parts are not defective, in which case they will be deleted and trashed. As LE has stated and as the Buddha has experienced and testified, this process may not be limited by the unidirectionality and sequentiality of time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
I really do think that "God" whatever or whoever that is put humans on this planet for His, Her, It's personal entertainment!

Egyptian mythology unequivocally states that the Creator created the world and the other gods (and humans) in order not to be lonely himself. We may extrapolate this motive to the Divine of which the Creator and the other gods are exponents.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Also, would "time" be the same thing in another galaxy as it is here?
Or even on another planet like Saturn, Neptune or Jupitor?

Yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Oh, Jupitor isn't solid, it's a planet of gas.

Presumably it has a metallic core, just like Earth and any other planet and ordinary star.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
If you can "bend" time like Einstein's theory tells us wouldn't that make it "circular?"

The hypothesis of general relativity is incorrect.



I like the way you explained this. This thread has been interesting.
The hypothesis of general relativity is incorrect, man is always try to figure out and explain things
he really can't figure out or explain.  Fascinating.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 2/16/2007 11:34:53 PM >


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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/17/2007 12:17:43 AM   
Royalton


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Time exists on its own.  We didn't create it.  What we did is create the way we measure it.

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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/17/2007 1:47:23 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250   "time has always existed and will always exist."   

Time could not exist before its definition existed.  The definition could not have existed before the observer.  Observed phenomena that we use time to measure i would agree has always existed.   

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250   If it "exists" who or what created it? And "when" was it created?   

We did.  i suppose that it started by watching the sunset and rise and the realization an interval exists.


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250   Time could certainly be circular and human beings couldn't recognise that because it was too large to measure in human terms i.e. like a thousand trillion years in our time being equal to a hundred trillionth of a second in the big sceme of things.
I would guess that time is circular because the circle or oval is the most perfect shape in nature.
If I'm right we've all done this before and we'll keep doing it again and again!   

Ok lets see if i can spit this out correctly.  So you feel that alberts methodology in defining and creating a model representing the geometry of moving mass within gravitational fields somehow "becomes" a circular event in which human actions are somehow intrinsically locked to that model as if to say it also determines our fate?  Which in conlusion suggests we will live over and over doing the same thing every trillion years while being helplessly caught in this endless loop as a result of a calculation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250   Also, would "time" be the same thing in another galaxy as it is here?
  

Unless something is discovered to defy known physics, (like bush and cronies), it will be the same.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250   Or even on another planet like Saturn, Neptune or Jupitor?
Does it take Jupitor say like 8 of our days to form 1 day on Jupitor?
  

Well as an example the theory of relativity would allow creating an algorithm to adjust for the difference of time from one person on a smaller planet like mars and solve the problem syncronizing their time to someone here on a larger planet of earth as the clocks would run slightly different from each other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250   If you can "bend" time like Einstein's theory tells us wouldn't that make it "circular?"   

You may have heard examples given where people try to explain the concepts of the geometry of 4 dimensional analysis of particles within a gravitational medium by saying time appears to bend but time in his theories does not bend in the respect it could become a circle. 


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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/17/2007 1:59:39 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
The hypothesis of general relativity is incorrect.



i do not get the god connection.

If it is incorrect how do you explian satelites remaining in orbit around the planet or trajectories being accurately calculated based on the deflection caused by passing the near proximity of the moons gravitational field etc?

i cant say as i agree with all the terminology or even methods for that matter but its pretty hard to argue with success and you know the old saying nothing succeeds like success .


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/17/2007 2:05:10 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
I like the way you explained this. This thread has been interesting.
The hypothesis of general relativity is incorrect, man is always try to figure out and explain things
he really can't figure out or explain.  Fascinating.


Are you saying  "at this moment in the time-space-continuum"?  LOL


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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/17/2007 2:14:40 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
i do not get the god connection.

That is unfortunate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
If it is incorrect how do you explian satelites remaining in orbit around the planet or trajectories being accurately calculated based on the deflection caused by passing the near proximity of the moons gravitational field etc?

i cant say as i agree with all the terminology or even methods for that matter but its pretty hard to argue with success and you know the old saying nothing succeeds like success .

Newtonian physics explains all kinds of orbits and trajectories sufficiently. Just about the only things that it struggled with were the precession of the planet Mercury and the bending of light from stars that passes close to our Sun. These latter two phenomena may be satisfactorily explained by a hypothesis that does not involve the hypothesis of general relativity.
 
In fact all phenomena that are considered to 'prove' the hypothesis of general relativity may be explained in another way. I have not determined what is specifically wrong with the hypothesis of general relativity, but when a hypothesis is not required to explain a phenomenon, it is superfluous and must be wrong.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/17/2007 2:15:54 AM >

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RE: Is time linear or circular? - 2/17/2007 2:25:54 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
In fact all phenomena that are considered to 'prove' the hypothesis of general relativity may be explained in another way. I have not determined what is specifically wrong with the hypothesis of general relativity, but when a hypothesis is not required to explain a phenomenon, it is superfluous and must be wrong.


it does not have enough dimensions to describe the phenomena.

what does this above quote mean?  i do not understand your point.


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(in reply to Rule)
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