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RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/19/2007 7:27:34 PM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

Go ahead, call a veteran and a federal agent a coward - )

Sure. Monkeyboy is a coward.

I know I am stretching things because the President is not technically considered a federal agent.

And he was not AWOL for at least part of his enlistment.

Feel better now?

Sinergy

Ahhhh...... no? i was referring to calling my brother a coward and was actually replying to BigDogs, yet i was unsure what specifically to say.... and Master said my orginal response was too long..... and well.......

i'm not sure who monkey boy is

_____________________________

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i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 21

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/19/2007 7:30:01 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Conscientious objector

These have become harder to prove. It requires the person to prove they are one, as opposed to just wandering in and objecting.

Of course, without conscription it is a moot point.

If it was an issue for me, I would use Arlo Guthries approach and make sure an envelope with my name on it was under the garbage. Pay my $50, and then refuse to sign the statement that I was moral enough to join the military and kill women and children after being arrested for littering.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
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"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Sternhand4)

Post #: 22

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/19/2007 7:49:57 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

DLS,

If he wishes to keep his job as a federal agent, he will have to resolve the military activation legally. His activation will likely place him in a non-combat role, and his bosses at the Feds will -have- to give him a job when he returns (legally and morally.) There's a good chance they're losing more than a few newer agents due to this type of recall.

If he goes UA, his dishonorable discharge will be the equivalent of a felony conviction. He won't even qualify for a job cleaning toilets for Uncle Sam with that on his record, nevermind work in law enforcement in any capacity.

I feel for you, honestly. At the same time, when he enlisted, he was told he had eight years over his head. It hurts like hell to have a contract like that, I was a little nervous towards the end of my IRR (Individual Ready Reserves) time as well. I'd just join the Air Force if I was him; pay isn't too bad, working conditions are a piece of cake, and he'll come out a hero, and have no trouble starting another career with the federal government as an eight year veteran.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 2/19/2007 8:29:33 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Sternhand4)

Post #: 23

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/19/2007 7:57:30 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

i'm not sure who monkey boy is

That's Sinergy's fond name for George W. Bush.

_____________________________

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 24

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/19/2007 8:08:40 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

What's laughable is you actually think the Democrats are going to stop the war.

Are you honestly suggesting the war should be stopped?

Do you personally think the war was a bad idea to begin with?

Are you implying that the war is unwinnable and is a cluster fuck of biblical proportions visited upon the citizenry of this planet by the Special Education Reject that dumbfuckistan elected president?

The Republicans had the opportunity to...

a) not start the war.

b) end the war.

And they did not do this. Logically, it follows that the Democrats expanding the war would be simply following the lovely example set by Monkeyboy.

Please clarify your objection.

Sinergy

Im suggesting that the war has been faught wrong from the start. Many mistakes were made. And I read something the other day that in the Bush admin's war planning, they never included any plans to figure out how to deal with the three sects dividing the country. I guess they thought we would go in there, set up a government, and everyone will simply go along with it.

The actual war and toppling of Saddam couldn't have gone better. We took over an entire nation in 3 weeks with less than 200 combat-related casulties. You couldnt have planned that any better. And we are very, very, very good at planning and executing that first part of the war. Our Marines tore through the most elite of Iraq's forces like a hot knife through butter.
But the situation after the war has been a complete mess. And it is something we are not good at doing.

Democrats historically has shown absolutely no restraint when it comes to war. Look at the amont of troops JFK and Lyndon Johnson sent to Vietnam. In fact, LBJ dropped more bombs than any other American president. That would be equal to one bomb dropped every 7 minutes for the term of his presidency. Harry Truman dropped two nuclear weapons on Japan. And President Clinton sent the US military on more for combat missions than any other president. All these guys were Democrats.

Tell me when historically that the Democratic party has ever used restraint when it came to war? Historically the GOP has actually been the anti-war party. In fact President Bush bashed the Clinton presidency in the 2000 Election for engaging the US forces into missions of "nation-building." And the conservatives also bashed Clinton for such things.

The party OUT OF POWER is always the anti-war party. The party IN POWER is always pro-war. They flip-flop all the time.

If the Dems sweep the elections in 2008, you actually believe they will change foreign policy and stop the wars? Look what happened the minute Nancy Pelosi (who was said to be a flaming liberal) took over the House. She ruled out any possibility of impeachment hearings. And she said that she will not allow a vote to cut off funds to limit the Iraq war.

Like I said, the Democrats are now moving into power. And now they will become the pro-war party.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 25

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/19/2007 9:06:58 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Look what happened the minute Nancy Pelosi (who was said to be a flaming liberal) took over the House. She ruled out any possibility of impeachment hearings. And she said that she will not allow a vote to cut off funds to limit the Iraq war.

I suspect that if Nancy Pelosi was in a position where she could successfully impeach the Chimpanzee In Chief, she would have. But there is an important point posited by various military strategist writers (I am thinking Sun Tzu, but I could be wrong) that one should pick their battles carefully. Why would Pelosi use political power and effort to fight a battle she cannot win?

As far as cutting off funding for the war. She would have to get Congress to agree to cut funding. If nothing happens, last year's budget will roll over to be this year's budget. Again, if it is a fight she cannot win, why bother fighting it?

Sinergy

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 26

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/19/2007 9:26:18 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDogs

I understand that Canada is welcoming all our cowards with wide open arms, but he may never be able to come back.

Good riddance anyway. Eh.

BigDogs:
It is my understanding that only a cowardly punk would call someone they did not know a coward. So I am assuming that you know this individual personally which would enable you to make such a demeaning assessment of his personal integrety.
thompson

(in reply to BigDogs)

Post #: 27

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/19/2007 9:30:43 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Look what happened the minute Nancy Pelosi (who was said to be a flaming liberal) took over the House. She ruled out any possibility of impeachment hearings. And she said that she will not allow a vote to cut off funds to limit the Iraq war.

I suspect that if Nancy Pelosi was in a position where she could successfully impeach the Chimpanzee In Chief, she would have. But there is an important point posited by various military strategist writers (I am thinking Sun Tzu, but I could be wrong) that one should pick their battles carefully. Why would Pelosi use political power and effort to fight a battle she cannot win?

As far as cutting off funding for the war. She would have to get Congress to agree to cut funding. If nothing happens, last year's budget will roll over to be this year's budget. Again, if it is a fight she cannot win, why bother fighting it?

Sinergy

Sinergy:
Perhaps because it would be the right and moral thing to do. Perhaps because her oath of office requires her to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States of America. Little shit like that. Making excuses for her is no different than making excuses for bush & co.
thompson

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 28

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/19/2007 10:48:09 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

Keep in mind that the approval rating of Congress is about the same as the approval rating for President Bush....around 32%. And that approval of Congress has actually dropped since the Dems took over. It was 36% in October. The American people right now dont like the government. Everyone is frustrated. And the conservatives are just as pissed off as liberals. Have you listened to any talk radio? The conservatives are bashing Bush more than the liberals are.

The people want either some kind of change or some kind of leadership in Washington. And 2008 doesnt look all that promising for either.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 2/19/2007 10:50:27 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 29

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 1:08:48 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

Anyone else have any ideas? Granted they have all these ideas - none of them are fool proof. Be nice to hear if anyone else has already tried this? Any success?

Honestly, as a former US Marine myself, I'd tell them to bite me. I wouldn't go. Period. Your brother did his time....enough is enough...someone needs to stand up to this bullshit even if it means spending time in a haliburton camp.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 30

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 3:38:12 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

He does need to walk the chain of command--

What state does he live in? a letter to the senators may be of some use. Paperwork on all fronts is the order of the day.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 31

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 3:58:56 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

All i can think is, doing the right thing - generally gets you screwed. (esp with the gov)

When does the establishment do the right thing? If it was me or mine, I wouldn't have a problem not doing the right thing, it is quite obvious this war is not for the good of the nation but for vested interest groups.

I would never expect a to see a member of a politician's family doing the right thing, especially of one who started the war in the first place. It just doesn't happen.

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Post #: 32

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 4:06:22 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The actual war and toppling of Saddam couldn't have gone better. We took over an entire nation in 3 weeks with less than 200 combat-related casulties. You couldnt have planned that any better. And we are very, very, very good at planning and executing that first part of the war. Our Marines tore through the most elite of Iraq's forces like a hot knife through butter.
But the situation after the war has been a complete mess. And it is something we are not good at doing.

With US military technology and the sheer amount of it, the US could probably defeat any standing army in the world in weeks, that is no big deal. However, you are fooling yourself if you think you have won the war because you won the standing army, you don't seem to be winning the resistence and the Bush administration has not fullfilled any of its initial objectives so no, you didn't win the war and you are a long way from it. But get real cyberdude, those elite Iraqi troops couldn't win Iranian irregulars and they were fighting in obsolete Soviet armour which are about as armoured as biscuit tins.

The administration didn't think their policy through, they were fucking dumb. Gen. Schwartzkopf said the US army in Iraq would be like a mamoth in a tar pit and what does the US army look like to you now? Bush had that advice before he started this stupid war.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/20/2007 4:09:59 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 33

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 5:22:29 AM

BigDogs

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Joined: 7/25/2006
Status: offline

I don't know why you and so many others are taking this so personally, thomson - I really don't, because that's what cowards have been called for years - cowards. Is that politically incorrect now? What are we supposed to call someone who is afraid these days, if not a coward. I guess that maybe I should have said that Canada will gladly accept our "courage challenged" instead...

< Message edited by BigDogs -- 2/20/2007 5:44:17 AM >

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 34

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 5:46:41 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Bush is a coward, (as well as his entire administration) and cowards as commanders-in-chief do not bode well.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BigDogs)

Post #: 35

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 5:50:44 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDogs

I don't know why you and so many others are taking this so personally, thomson - I really don't, because that's what cowards have been called for years - cowards. Is that politically incorrect now? What are we supposed to call someone who is afraid these days, if not a coward. I guess that maybe I should have said that Canada will gladly accept our "courage challenged" instead...

Hark! The mouth of the brave!

If you were posting from Bagdad you would have some credibility but posting from a foxhole in Nevada is not quite the same thing.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to BigDogs)

Post #: 36

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 6:11:30 AM

Devilslilsister

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Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

He's not afraid, I'm afraid. He's my big brother, and bad things arent allowed to happen to him. i'm sure he's just being practical and logical about it as he always is. He'll prolly do the right thing, fight it "the right" way, go through his chain of command, talk to a senator (he's in TX), blah blah blah blah. Stephann, i understand what happens if he gets a dishonorable. But, he isnt like me. He's more sane and logical, not impulsive, and is the "golden boy" of the family.

i doubt he'd take my advice and go holiday in mexico. i just worry that him doing the right thing, doing it all properly will just land him in Iraq which will land him dead. Did have an idea. Any chance he can drag things out loooooooong enough that the war ends? If he spent a couple of years going through trials and appeals and more appeals (kind of like they do on death row) the war will end before he has to go?

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 37

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 6:14:58 AM

subrob1967

Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

Your Brother enlisted by choice in the U.S. military, and now has to fulfill his obligation to honor his oath, and follow his legal orders.

Someone who enlists in the military are subject to recall at ANY given time, it's part of the contract you sign with the government, period, end of story.

Is the war legal? Yes, thanks to Congress

Are we fighting it the right way? Not if we want to win, but thanks to those who believe that mankind is "civilized" our hands are tied, and we'll never stop terrorism.

Are we doing good in Iraq? Every soldier and Marine I've talked to at my local VFW who served a tour seem to think so, and most have volunteered to return for a second or third tour.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 38

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 6:20:59 AM

BigDogs

Posts: 16
Joined: 7/25/2006
Status: offline

Unless I agree with you, I have to be in Baghdad in order to have the right to an opinion?

Is that what you're trying to say?

Are you trying to shout me down with the old, "YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO AN OPINION" argument?

Try again there, meat - because that's like trying to say that I'd have to be aboard the space shuttle to criticize that crazy astronaut lady who tried to kidnap her competition.

People who think differently than you DO have the right to an opinion, and just because you want to shut us up and you try to shut us up doesn't mean that we will shut up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Hark! The mouth of the brave!

If you were posting from Bagdad you would have some credibility but posting from a foxhole in Nevada is not quite the same thing.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 39

RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 6:32:25 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDogs

Unless I agree with you, I have to be in Baghdad in order to have the right to an opinion?

Is that what you're trying to say?

Are you trying to shout me down with the old, "YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO AN OPINION" argument?

Try again there, meat - because that's like trying to say that I'd have to be aboard the space shuttle to criticize that crazy astronaut lady who tried to kidnap her competition.

People who think differently than you DO have the right to an opinion, and just because you want to shut us up and you try to shut us up doesn't mean that we will shut up.

Oh you and your ilk have the right to an opinion and I have the right to mock all those brave belicose warmongers that accuse people of being cowards from the safety of their foxholes in Nevada.

Sheesh I just can't stand all those brave jingoistic people that accuse other people of being cowards but won't stand up and be counted themselves.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to BigDogs)

Post #: 40

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