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RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 8:01:21 PM   
needdiscipline23


Posts: 106
Joined: 5/14/2005
Status: offline 		I really don't care much either for the argument that Bush's kids should be enlisting or that you have to be/have gone to Iraq to have an opinion.
Both only make sense if we were drafting soldiers, which we're not.  Absolutely, if we had a draft in place, and Bush's kids weren't going, he'd be a hypocrite for that--for sending our sons and daughters (or just sons) but not his own....but the fact is, every single person over there volunteered.

I'm not saying it's been done right, or that it doesn't suck, I'm just saying, that the soldiers/airmen/sailors volunteered to be in a military that is controlled by people who are not in the military.

I also don't think you have to know someone personally to call him/her a coward.  I think coward is a very apt word for the idiots at Abu Grahib (spelling sucks, sorry) who were abusing prisoners.

That being said, I think it is basically inexcusable to call someone a coward for not wanting/being afraid to fight.  Yes, I think if they signed up they should obey orders and go where they're sent, but I'm not going to call anyone's honor into question because they are now unwilling to fight--just b/c they are not doing what I think they should doesn't give me the right to label them like that--not when their lives are on the line.

Edited to respond to the OP, cause otherwise I'm just being rude! :)  I think there's been a lot of good advice given here, and really, it helps not to think of someone as OUT of the military, just b/c they've been transferred to IRR--the military isn't making him come back in...he just never really got out yet, b/c his enlistment commitment hadn't been completely fulfilled.  My thoughts will be with him, and all of our military members.


< Message edited by needdiscipline23 -- 2/20/2007 8:03:58 PM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 8:17:48 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I really don't care much either for the argument . . . that you have to be/have gone to Iraq to have an opinion.


Agreed. But I do think it's noteworthy that I've yet to find a pundit/poster who believes so strongly in the war that s/he actually went to fight in it. Many people's support for the war seems to be predicated on the safe assurance that other people will handle the minor details of fighting and dying.

quote:

the fact is, every single person over there volunteered.


Is that true, though, for National Guard folks who thought they'd be serving, largely part-time, in their own states and wound up in combat half a world away? I may be wrong on this, but I think they may constitute a fair number of the folks serving in Iraq.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to needdiscipline23)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 8:33:12 PM   
needdiscipline23


Posts: 106
Joined: 5/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I really don't care much either for the argument . . . that you have to be/have gone to Iraq to have an opinion.


Agreed. But I do think it's noteworthy that I've yet to find a pundit/poster who believes so strongly in the war that s/he actually went to fight in it. Many people's support for the war seems to be predicated on the safe assurance that other people will handle the minor details of fighting and dying.

quote:

the fact is, every single person over there volunteered.


Is that true, though, for National Guard folks who thought they'd be serving, largely part-time, in their own states and wound up in combat half a world away? I may be wrong on this, but I think they may constitute a fair number of the folks serving in Iraq.


Yes, National Guard and Reservists do constitute a fairly large portion, as far as I understand it, but there is basically no one who could have signed up for the guard or reserves without recognizing that activation was a strong possibility, esp after the war began.  Even before it began, I refuse to act like our soldiers were too naive to know the risks--part of the guard's job is to be activated when needed, and those going in should have most definitely been aware of that.

While I don't much care for the thought of people sitting back and sending others off to war either, that IS the way our society is set up.  Soldiers enlist, knowing they are at the service of those who are NOT serving--again, soldiers enlist voluntarily.  But, like I said, I don't really like that mentality much...I DO however feel that we have a right to vote to send our voluntary soldiers to war.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 8:50:34 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Then fucking DECLARE WAR.

That's been one of my points the whole time. IF the mission is SO DAMN IMPORTANT, 1/2 assing it, the Rumsfeld Way isn't the way to do it.

Of course, since Iraq was never a threat to the United States, the mission isn't so damn important, we got us the quagmire we see now.

What was that Lincoln said about the reason the Republic mobilizes for war, somewhere in Pennsylvania, if I recall correctly...



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/20/2007 8:51:35 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to needdiscipline23)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 10:10:11 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Then fucking DECLARE WAR.

That's been one of my points the whole time. IF the mission is SO DAMN IMPORTANT, 1/2 assing it, the Rumsfeld Way isn't the way to do it.

Of course, since Iraq was never a threat to the United States, the mission isn't so damn important, we got us the quagmire we see now.

What was that Lincoln said about the reason the Republic mobilizes for war, somewhere in Pennsylvania, if I recall correctly...




The US has not declared war since WW2.
Panama, Grenada, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, and Iraq are all undeclared wars. Congress also never declared war against the indian tribes during the 19th century. Although there was never more than a 90-day period of peace from 1840 to 1886.

For some reason or another, we just dont declare war anymore. Not many nations do. They just send in their forces.
The US Congress has only declared 5 wars although the US military has faught in over 120 conflicts:
1. War of 1812
2. Mexican-American War
3. Spanish-American War
4. World War I
5. World War II

Although congress "authorized" military force for most of the undeclared conflicts.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 2/20/2007 10:11:10 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/20/2007 10:14:08 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Panama, Grenada, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, and Iraq are all undeclared wars.


When I was explaining to my sister-in-law why Iraq struck me as a bad idea, one of the reasons I offered, actually, was that our track record with undeclared wars leaves something to be desired.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/21/2007 6:47:55 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		THREE More troops are dead in Iraq today, because WE did not bring them home yesterday.

How many dead troops will you accept?


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/21/2007 10:58:01 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		As a veteran, my heart breaks for every serviceman who dies without need, and every widow, mother, daughter, son, brother, father, lover, cousin, and person who loved him (or her.)

I accepted the possibility of dying, when I entered.  I accept the possibility of dying walking to the store, or in my sleep.  It doesn't excuse the needless deaths we have inflicted on ourselves, and other countries in the name of blood lust and vengence for 9/11.

I am passionately anti war.  I am also passionately pro-defense.  Those without swords may still die upon them.  Until we recognize that the men directing the swords, do so because of our own lack of action through our words and votes, more will die needlessly, as simple statistics and news reports.  For this reason, it breaks my heart, to admit I am an American.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/21/2007 1:28:52 PM   
PoisonRoses


Posts: 65
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: needdiscipline23

I really don't care much either for the argument that Bush's kids should be enlisting or that you have to be/have gone to Iraq to have an opinion.
Both only make sense if we were drafting soldiers, which we're not.  Absolutely, if we had a draft in place, and Bush's kids weren't going, he'd be a hypocrite for that--for sending our sons and daughters (or just sons) but not his own....but the fact is, every single person over there volunteered.


< Message edited by PoisonRoses -- 2/21/2007 1:32:55 PM >

(in reply to needdiscipline23)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Soldier Recalls - 2/21/2007 1:31:32 PM   
PoisonRoses


Posts: 65
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		Every single person over there volunteered to PROTECT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA !!!!!     Iraq was NOT responsible for 9-11 nor were they any threat to the U.S.    There was not a misunderstanding about the evidence that lead us to war, there was a manufacturing of it.   So HELL YES our military should have reservations, as should their families.  




< Message edited by PoisonRoses -- 2/21/2007 1:33:12 PM >

(in reply to PoisonRoses)
Profile   Post #: 90
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