RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (Full Version)

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DoctorDubious -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/20/2007 8:46:21 PM)

Gender Bias?

Yes, of course, it is rampant everywhere.

We are all embedded deeply into our cultures,
and though we perverts throw off a lot of conventionality,
it is my considered position that gender bias
is one of the most deeply engrained "cultural conditionings" of all.

We all suffer from it... each in our way....
and some, I hope, struggle to see each man and woman
as a unique and unprecedented expression of humanity.

I do.
But my small-town, middle-class conditioning
reddens my neck all the damned time!

DD
If anybody is interested...
reply here and I'll post a link to an amazing
online test that you can self-administer
to see if you hold unconscious racist attitudes ....
It's a Harvard thing, scientifically valid,
and humiliating in it's exposures of your unconscious values.



SusanofO -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/20/2007 8:54:13 PM)

I do see situations where say, submissive males (and especially Dominant males, maybe) are expected to "suck it up" and act like things don't bother them, where it might be considered more acceptable for submissive females (or Dommes) to "cry on someone's shoulder" about whatever the situation in question is.

Personally, while I can say I think that's a shame, and I do appreciate men who can expresss their feelings, I don't tend to appreciate what I term "whiners" - of either gender (said I, whining about the "whiners", hehe).

But I realize men have genuine problems and-or questions as often as women do, probably, and sometimes, they maybe don't think they can talk to anyone about them. I think that's kinda sad, if that's the case (I'm not a guy, so I am guessing about how often this happens- this is what I've heard can happen to men sometimes, though).

- Susan



WingedSnake -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/20/2007 9:32:28 PM)

I noticed a gender bias in the german bsdm scene concerning wrongdoing dominant males or females. It is talked a lot about dangerous or not to limits adhering male dominants and the "victims" get a lot of sympathy, about the female dominants who act wrong is talked seldom I think it has three reasons, firstly there is still this idea hat women are never the agressor and secondly the male submissives do not speak enough about their experiences and thirdly in analogy to males who get raped or sexually abused as childs, people do not tend to believe that something like that can happen to a man.



wolffeathers -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/20/2007 11:31:10 PM)

Tal,

First, I'll admit I only skimmed through most of the responses.  However, in my little corner of the community, gender bias does/doesn't exist. 

Now I'll explain.

It's felt by those of us that there is a way everyone should interact.  Men Dominat, females submissive.  The same as in almost all other speices of animal.  Therefore, it's not bias when it's the truth!



gooddogbenji -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 2:03:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolffeathers

Tal,

First, I'll admit I only skimmed through most of the responses.  However, in my little corner of the community, gender bias does/doesn't exist. 

Now I'll explain.

It's felt by those of us that there is a way everyone should interact.  Men Dominat, females submissive.  The same as in almost all other speices of animal.  Therefore, it's not bias when it's the truth!



Ever wonder why we hate Goreans?

Yours,


benji



StellaByStarlite -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 5:59:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolffeathers

Tal,

First, I'll admit I only skimmed through most of the responses.  However, in my little corner of the community, gender bias does/doesn't exist. 

Now I'll explain.

It's felt by those of us that there is a way everyone should interact.  Men Dominat, females submissive.  The same as in almost all other speices of animal.  Therefore, it's not bias when it's the truth!



Hello, Wolffeathers. =)
 
 
Are you saying that "men dominant, women submissive" is some kind of natural order? Evolutionary directive? I'm honestly just curious. =)
 
 
Stella



adaddysgirl -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 6:41:30 AM)

i'm not sure if this is a bias or not and i don't read the Mistress board with regularity, but there were two things that stood out to me.
 
Whenever i have gotten involved with a dom, he has made it clear that once we lived together and were stable in a LTR, i would quit my job and tend to the household and him, so to speak.  And i have seen that other females subs also have this type of arrangement.  But it seems to me that most Mistresses require the male sub be employed at all times....and it actually sounds derogatory if he is not.
 
Another thing....from what i have experienced and from what i have seen, most female subs are in no way lacking sexually.  However, it seems to me that sex is not a high priority for the Mistress.
 
Now these are just observations, not judgments in any way.  Does this seem accurate or have i just not read enough there to get the entire picture?  [8|]
 
DG



SusanofO -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 7:22:34 AM)

Does anyone remember the the case of Mary Kay LeTourneau, the sixth grade school teacher who had an affair (and two children) with her 13-year old male student? I remember tv pictures of young men (of legal age), marching with signs outside her court-room, when she was on trial, that said things like: "Hey baby! Take me! I'm 18!"

Mary Kay LeTournaeu was exceptionally pretty (IMO), and many people (apparently many of them men) thought that if they'd been her 13 year-old student, they'd not have felt sexually violated if she'd raped them, instead.

However, it was pointed out by many (and still is) that if the situation had been reversed, and an adult male teacher had been caught raping a 13-year old female student, he'd have been locked away in prison pronto, and very few people would have maybe complained it was "silly" to complain about his sexual misconduct.

P.S. Mary Kay LeTourneau also suffered from pretty severe bi-polar disorder, which I always thought was a major part of the reason for her affair with the 13-year old (still not an excuse, but a reason anyway). However, all that aside, you still probably see my point.  

- Susan



SusanofO -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 7:30:15 AM)

adaddysgirl: I think you're absolutely right about the employment thing being seen as a must for male submssives (and certainly for male Dominants) , and not necessarily as much for female submissives (or even Dommes), as a general rule (but of course it all depends on who you ask).

As far as the sex, I don't have enough experience, and also have not read enough about about this kind of interaction between Dommes and male submissives to be able to make a judgment about that, but tend to thnk it could well be true also.

Maybe this is just also a result of me not reading enough on the "Ask A Mistress" threads, but come to think of it, I do seem to read a lot more about chastity devices being used on male submissives than I do on female submissives - but that conclusion on my part could be due to lack of reading and experience. I know male hetero Dominants do use chastity devices on female submissives, but I don't seem to read about it as often, who knows why? 

- Susan 



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 9:49:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite
quote:

ORIGINAL: wolffeathers
Tal,
However, in my little corner of the community, gender bias does/doesn't exist. 

Now I'll explain.
It's felt by those of us that there is a way everyone should interact.  Men Dominat, females submissive.  The same as in almost all other speices of animal.  Therefore, it's not bias when it's the truth!
Are you saying that "men dominant, women submissive" is some kind of natural order? Evolutionary directive? I'm honestly just curious. =)
Stella
Yes Stella, I believe that is what he was saying...
In his defense, he did begin by saying that only happens in his little corner of the community.   I believe benji's response dealt effectively with my thoughts on his words.

quote:

adaddysgirl  
Whenever i have gotten involved with a dom, he has made it clear that once we lived together and were stable in a LTR, i would quit my job and tend to the household and him, so to speak.  And i have seen that other females subs also have this type of arrangement.  But it seems to me that most Mistresses require the male sub be employed at all times....and it actually sounds derogatory if he is not.
Your observations are yours...
My observations are that there is no great difference in the number of working male/female submissives.   So far, the only people who've consistently said their partners do not work are MercnBeth, and Aakasha... I'm sure there are more, I just haven't noticed many others.
As to the sex thing...  Generally speaking we (men and women) go about getting our needs met by different methods; so it may be a biological/social imprinting/indoctrination thing.    In the end, people within the lifestyle aren't much different from people without.   M



toservez -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 9:53:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

I dont know so much that there is a gender bias as much as there is a communication bias. Granted, yes, there is a tendancy for the females to garner more of the polite and supportive communication, but I have read as many where a female subs conversation has been taken less than seriously.
It is all about how you present your argument or concern. If you make it sound serious, as if it is something you are truly concerned with, the  you are going to get answers that match.  If you post something that sounds like you are looking for attention or you are looking to get off to the answers, you will not get what you were looking. 
It would also be an age bias thing, in that case, since the younger submissives of both genders tend to have a less formal writing style, using more slang and forming questions that dont always come across as seriously.

My 2 cents, of course
DV


I mostly do agree with this. I have also thought about starting a thread and asking how a person writes the thread and the first few posts often will be indicative of how the thread goes, whether mostly information and debate in good nature or go into areas of ridicule or self defense.

I just though think there is still a big difference from a more crass thread and if a thread is written with fewer words then many of us here write. I just think there is a level of wanting to give the benefit of a doubt to a female’s sincerity and guilty before being innocent to a male’s sincerity who is not known on boards of this nature.

I agree Amayos that there is an underlying cultural situation to this and it penetrates society at large as well. Western culture in some way, my personal favorite target of mine TV and movies, has been re-enforcing the image that women are more sincere, honest, and bright and men are dogs and/or dumb. Women are almost always portrayed as right and men are always portrayed as wrong. There seems to be a sense that us women do things the right way and if men are different it is wrong instead of to me the correct thing is to accept there is just a difference between the two genders.

What Benji wrote about men wanting sex all the time illustrates this to me quite well. Why is it wrong that men want sex all the time but that is how everyone portrays it. Wanting sex all the time does not equate to with as many women as possible, not that there are not men like that, so men must hide there true intentions because they have been judged morally wrong to want a lot of sex causing deceit. In away the judgment feeds itself.

I guess to sum it up to me there is a pretty big difference to read or hear something from a particular gender and while how it said matters, I still think that many times most of us sometimes have already judged the person sincere or not and too many times it is based on gender.




Gauge -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 10:12:39 AM)

I have said this many times on the boards and I am sure I will say it many more times:

The art of romance is dying.

I am a dominant male... who cares? I believe that courtship of a partner begins with finesse and grace. I give respect to the submissives I contact not because I am a weak dominant but because they deserve the respect.

The title that men have earned by being belligerent and disrespectful is deserved. Thus it does, in some ways, contribute to an overall gender bias. Since some Domly Doms can't seem to figure out the whole romance angle and they start emails out with, "Kneel Bitch!" I would say that the perception of insensitivity and (possibly) outright cruelty toward women is justified to some extent. The women, however, should be smart enough to withhold judgment and not arbitrarily whitewash all men with a broad brush-stroke.



LotusSong -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 10:21:51 AM)

The main reason I backed out of the scene in Phoenix was the blatant Male Dom/bi-femsub bias.
 
I created my own group.. :)



RWAble -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 10:47:49 AM)

Gender-bias;
Unfortunately it exist in all walks of life. Some men feel all women are inferior; thus should be submissive. Some women feel that all men are inferior; thus should be submissive. I really don't feel that is the correct assumptions for someone that is true to the lifestyle.
I think submissive men get a bad rap, because so many of the male subs in these communities are in-sincere. It's a game to them. There are in-sincere female subs too. It makes it rough for subs trying to find their Dominate mate, as well as Dominant's trying to find their subs.
I don't think gender-bias will ever go away, as long as human nature prevails. I would just hope that those true to the lifestyle would raise themselves above such petty thinking.
Just my two and half cents.



millisande -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 11:36:40 AM)

Greetings to all, be you Master, Dom, Top, switch, bottom, sub, or slave..... or something else entirely...
*note: the following is meant in humor, and not mallice*

Benji...
In answer to your question... Nope. A girl doesn't  know who's signature it is, but somewhere on this forum is the sig line that says basically 'Goreans hate us because they think we are stupid. We hate Goreans, because we think they are stupid.' ((If you read this, whoever you are, please let bina know... she would like to get the full context, and know who to atribute it too...))

That 'bout summs it up, no?


*now less humorous*
Greetings, stella.

That is indeed exactly what Master Wolf is saying... that, with exceptions (there is always at least one exception to every rule), males of most species are the dominant gender, and, until the last 80 years or so, that this included the human species, in most places, and in a few places still does. NOTE: There are exceptions! yes, they exist. There are female dominated societies, female dominated species.... but, they are just that, the exceptions. They are, however, rare percentage-wise.

Best wishes to Thee and Thine,

With all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free,
bina



Lashra -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 12:18:16 PM)

Everyone interacting the same way is truth? lol yeah right. That's known as shoving people into cookie cutter molds and expecting some to be something they were not meant to be. That is called living a lie.

I am naturally DOMINANT and I am very female, Ill never be submissive to any male. For me to do so would go against my own true nature and that would be a dishonor to myself.

To the OP gender bias doesn't apply in my small section of the world. We believe in equality in respect and rights. In my relationship I am the one in charge and my submale (who happens to be an ex gorean master) loves it that way.[:)]

I treat everyone the same unless of course they choose to disrespect/insult me then I view them as someone who is unenlightened and not worth my time.

~Lashra



Lashra -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 12:25:59 PM)

Human female led socieities aren't really an exception. The reason there is/was so few of them is because the males would kill the females if they dared to show their dominance. It seems that killing the women was preferable to trying to work together. Also you have to remember that alot of "history" was written by males and many of them did not want it known that there were more female led societies. So to say males are meant to be dominant and females submissive is quite incorrect considering ALL humans have both of these qualities in their personalities. One trait or the other is usually stronger it just depends upon the individual.

~Lashra



DoctorDubious -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 12:41:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

Human female led socieities aren't really an exception. The reason there is/was so few of them is because the males would kill the females if they dared to show their dominance. It seems that killing the women was preferable to trying to work together. Also you have to remember that alot of "history" was written by males and many of them did not want it known that there were more female led societies.

So to say males are meant to be dominant and females submissive is quite incorrect considering ALL humans have both of these qualities in their personalities.

One trait or the other is usually stronger it just depends upon the individual.

~Lashra



Dear Lashra.... and all,

>>you have to remember that alot of "history" was written by males

Agreed. Males of "class" and priviledge, generally of wealth and station and power and therefore completely biased in many ways.

A good point you make!

>>say males are meant to be dominant and females submissive is quite incorrect considering ALL humans have both of these qualities in their personalities.

Once again I agree, so you must be right!
(or is that pesky male ego of mine clouding my vision
even more than it's murky usual....)

Of course we all have yin and yang, fertility and potency,
dark and light, surrender and dominance.... all stirred up
in delightfully individualized containers

But I was not equating gender bias with the surrender/dominance dynamic.
Gender bias to me means to wrongly influenced or unfairly predjudiced against someone because of whether they are a man or woman.

Who could be predjudiced against someone
who might, in some circumstances, submit and surrender
themselves to me?

I personally think those are the finest people.
(ego again methinks? or merely weak and tepid wit?)

But I leave the last word to Lashra,
and if I had anything to say about it,
we would proclaim it as the Mantra Of The Human Race.

>>it just depends upon the individual.














edited 'cause the dubious doofus don't spell rite



StellaByStarlite -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 1:21:59 PM)

Hi, Millisande. =)
 
Thank you replying more fully to my question and clarifying things a bit, I appreciate it. =)
 
First, a disclaimer: I do not hate Goreans, and in no way am I attacking the lifestyle or the philosophy as a valid way to live.
 
 
But I really need to step in and refute the claim that "women are supposed to be submissive because that's how is *should* be" as an objective truth. And here's why:
 
"Natural order" implies that there a purpose to evolution. There isn't at all. It's blind and not progressive. At best, it has what may be loosely defined as a function. The function is to propagate genes. That's basically it. From a scientific standpoint, the meaning of life is making more life. =)
 
With this in mind, it should be noted that there is no evidence to suggest that human reproduction is threatened when women are given equal status in societies. That's really the only imperative of nature- to propogate. Cultural contructs such as patriarchy serve other ( human) purposes, but generally speaking.. folks are gunna breed no matter what. =)

Furthermore, the only two species we can reasonably compare and contrast ourselves with are the chimps. There are observable similarities, and yes, we did share a common ancestor. But to draw the conclusion that "we should act like chimps because we're closely related" is incorrect. I mentioned in another post that the small percentage of DNA that distinguishes us from both species makes for major differences. In other words , the behavior of other animals is fine for them, but humans follow a distinct and unique path.
 
Again, I'll say that I have nothing personally against the Gorean lifestyle. I'm not bashing it .But it appears that some parts of it are based on false premises about evolution and human nature. Just because humanity developed male-dominated culture most ( yes, most) of the time, does not mean that that's how "nature" wanted it. That would be attributing conciousness to the indifference of evolution.
 
 
Cheers,
Stella
 
 
 



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/21/2007 5:36:46 PM)

Dear Stella,
could you please click on the little box which reads size, and make your posts size 2/3/4 to make it readable without magnifying glasses.   It seems you have smart words to impart, and it would be a shame if we had to skip you because you didn't realize how it looked from the other side.    M



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