RE: gender bias in this life and these boards

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (Full Version)

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amayos -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/22/2007 11:54:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy [...] In fact I see that T&A still sells...and with the advances in the womans movement....You would expect this dynamic to be minimalized but that is far from reality... As far as the glass ceiling goes which has little relevance to this post...Here is but one link...This is for the States. No one gives a rats ass what women are making in Australia or if the dingo ate your baby or not. The dynamics of the "glass ceiling" had little relevance to this post, indeed...until you brought it up. Your link (and others like it) claims women make seventy-six to eighty cents for every dollar paid to a male, and another states that women are fifteen times as likely as men to become top executives in major corporations before the age of forty. The fact is, we live in an age where proponents from either side of any divide and every shade in between now have their own stable of research analysts to put their particular spin on raw data. Links from the Census Bureau, findings from self-important authors or results from the latest biolerplate street poll can be swapped ad infinitum for the benefit of either side, and as SusanofO points out quite well, not many people trust or even care in the "research," when contrasted to their own personal observations of reality. You see the commercial use of female sexuality as exploitive to females, and yet many—especially in a community such as this—see female sexuality and the use of it as empowering. Some view the nude dancer on the stage as a slave to the flesh market, while others take note of the addicted customer below unfurling his wallet at a regularly visited altar.

novicecourtesan -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 12:11:22 AM)
This is a random guess... But I'm going to guess that if you take any company in virtually any major industry, separate the men and the women, add up their respective salaries and divide by the number of men and women...the men's salary will almost always be higher, if not much higher, than the women's. Why? Because men have have most of the top executive and high-paying positions in most industries, even if the majority of employees are women. Notice the qualifying terms. I am not sure, and there are no doubt exceptions. But the glass ceiling doesn't seem to be cracking open any time soon.

UtopianRanger -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 2:51:16 AM)
quote: I am less attracted to answering questions about male sub/ fem dom partnerships because of this issue. I am sure I have a gender bias, although I have often felt pity that a male sub that wants his sexual needs met and is told that he is just a do-me. I think that this is because men and women often view sexuality differently, and when the woman is in charge she wants it her way. Edited out some humor that probably did not translate well When I see a profile like one you've mentioned, I put it on ''hide'' never to see it again. Thank the guy upstairs I get lots of messages from just the opposite – Women who love sex. ; } I really think the lifestyle is about sex not service. - R

meatcleaver -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 3:27:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PsyVamp I think you really nailed that one. Very few guys on cm write me to talk about ideas, most just want to cyber fuck so yes, after 50 (or 100 ....) messages like that I am jaded. Now I belive that not only do all men want is sex, but they can't read a profile either [sm=evil.gif] Mistress Psy Why would a man want anything else but a wankfest with a woman online, having contacted them through a site like CM? Very few men and women ever appear to acknowledge their hypocrisy in these matters. I'm sure to most women, most men contacting them are HNGs until one clicks but because they have chosen him, they will not call him a HNG. Men will say anything to women to get them to sexually perform while at the same time expecting some honesty. If the women cooperate they are sluts and if they don't they are frigid bitches, unless one clicks and then she is some sort of angel on a pedestal. OK. I'm cynical and have a low opinion of what motivates most people when it comes to sexual matters. I really do think most people deny to themselves their real motivation.

StellaByStarlite -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 7:10:15 AM)
Hi, Novicecourtesan =) Actually, no.. it hasn't been proven that female submission is responsible for our reproductive success. That's pure speculation and I'm not even certain it's an idea entertained by socio-biologists. It seems more likely that male domination arose out of their leftover instinct to control their own individual line of descent. Think about it.. if women were in fact, naturally submissive, then why would rape even be a factor? I won't argue the probability that women have outdated instincts as well. And yes indeed, patriarchies have been the usual order of human civilization. But the claim that female submission in humans is "The Natural Order" is just wrong. it's not based on anything factual, no real empirical evidence, nothing. Societies that give equal status to women breed just fine. We were breeding just fine a long time before we formed into civilizations, lol. From a scientific viewpoint, it's false until proven correct. Using "science" as a means of justifying a philosphy or lifestyle is nothing new. The most broad term of it is " Social Darwinism"and it was used to rationalize slavery before. I say.. live how you want, but don't bring some half-assed pseudo-scientific speculation into it unless you're willing to play by the rules of science. Just my two cents. ;) Stella

SusanofO -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 7:24:45 AM)
meatcleaver: I agree there may be some hypocrisy in completely not expecting a man to assume sex might be more easily obtainable, (and more quickly) on a site like this one. I think for some (females mostly, I am guessing), it's the general assumption at times (from some, not all, men) that, due to the nature of a D/s relationship perhaps, that they are obligated to instantly provide it (if they are females submssives, and Dommes, too, simply because of their D/s role, and maybe also because they are female) to which some females are maybe objecting. It would be interesting to find out how many women here contact a man secretly hoping he'll quickly ask them to do something they are "supposed to find" somewhat objectionable - according to the traditonal "Madonna-whore" standards of propriety, and the rather well-entrenched social notion that a female who agrees to insta-sex, no matter how much a man may really appreciate it, is still a "whore." If I wasn't interested in a D/s relationship, I'd be on eHarmony, not on CollarMe. But - there are people (both men and women) here who are looking forward to trying build a long term relationship, too - not that the two ideas are always exclusive (you can't have insta-sex and a long-term relationship at the same time? Who said? I mean, maybe insta-sex isn't the wisest move as far as trying to build something long-term, but - where are the stats that prove it? Maybe it is true, maybe it's not (I dunno, really). Gosh, this gender-bias and sex and society are so F-- up. My head hurts now. Time for an aspirin, he. novicecourtesan: I agree, it may not open soon (the glass ceiling). What seems to be rarely mentioned (yes) is that this could very well be because a majority of women aren't obsessed with "clawing their way to the top." - Susan

novicecourtesan -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 9:11:41 AM)
StellabyStarlite: Actually, I am pretty unconvinced by philosophies that primarily use evolution to define the relationship between men and women, particularly because we do have minds and intellects that have also evolved beyond what happened thousands or hundreds of years ago. I don't think we're just guided by our animal instincts, or supposed to be. But I am always interested in learned and inherited behavior, and people's arguments. SusanofO: Not every woman is career minded--although I would say that "clawing her way to the top" is not always the case and indeed, implies an aggressive woman climbing over others, the stereotype of the woman executive as a bitch. My friends work in book publishing, a female-dominated industry until the very top levels, where all executives are male. She doesn't want to be a publishing executive, but what if she did--to have more say in her books and in her authors, and more weight with the publicity department? She may be able to do it, but it's definitely going to be an uphill struggle. This is just an example, and I'm sure there are others. Whether they want to or not, the fact that there's this arbitrary ceiling irritates me. ""

SusanofO -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 10:17:25 AM)
novice courtesan: I think in some cases it can indeed be very hard for a woman to penetrate the very high levels of corporate America (and it depends on the industry too, sometimes, I think, but not always, certainly, and that doesn't make it justifiable). I was just saying that many women choose to only pursue a part-time career, etc., and are not overly zealous as far as being ambitious, and I get confused when stats seem to imply that sex discrimination is rampant for that reason. Some females indeed are discriminated against, IMO, and I do think they should go to court (I really do). It's amazing how socially insulated some of the top echelon-thinking in corporate America can be. Some of these high-echelon types think they just can't be touched legally, no matter how abominable some of their behavior is (look at the size of some executive salaries. I know that's not a matter of sex discrimination, but it is a pretty good example of how "out of touch" some of these folks really are, I think). I think some people stay silent about sex discrimination because pursuing a trial is just too expensive, or they fear they can't have a gap in their employment record (if the company fires them, regardless of a law suit threat). All of these reasons make sense, but if it's possible I think a law suit, and making companies bear the legal and other problems that ensue from that is a good idea. I do think legal ramifications make a difference to companies, as far as how they treat their employees - because law suits (and bad publicity) are expensive for them as well, and I think they know it. The company I worked for knew the woman they'd just hired in my department had the exact same job description I did. They just didn't think she'd ever reveal her salary to me, or that I'd sue them if I found out she was making more money (like 7K more) for the same job with less experience and education (maybe because she asked for it at the beginning, I am not sure). It wasn't sex discrimination, but it was discrimination. It made me angrier because at the time, I was working tons of unpaid over-time as well.The company was also obviously happy with my work (I'd been there over a year - if they weren't happy, they would have already fired me, and my work evaluations from my boss were very good). They just never thought I'd say anything about it, I guess, because I reallly am not rich, and I did need the job. Fortunately, my sister and my brother-in-law are attorneys. When the company heard that, they took more notice of the situation. It's not a position everyone is in, but there are Legal Aid attorneys out there who work for free, and they might take on cases like this - but people have to ask, and it can be a huge hassle, too. - Susan

amayos -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 10:23:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan This is a random guess... But I'm going to guess that if you take any company in virtually any major industry, separate the men and the women, add up their respective salaries and divide by the number of men and women...the men's salary will almost always be higher, if not much higher, than the women's. Why? Because men have have most of the top executive and high-paying positions in most industries, even if the majority of employees are women. We can "guess" endlessly to and fro as well, but ultimately, we Americans in this day and age all live in the same country and enjoy the protections of the same freedoms and laws. Our society is inundated with a salad of biases from every direction which are hurdled by individuals from all walks of life every day. Though most can see the current popular bias in social engineering increasingly benefits the female sex, many are finding it's not necessarily a ticket to economic paradise. Women who put the victimization rhetoric aside and just do what it takes to get the jobs they want or need become forces to be reckoned with. If you want it, go get it. This applies to the woman trapped under the "glass ceiling" as much as it does the man trapped in the often less glamorous "glass cellar."

dogthing -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 10:52:08 AM)
quote: However, I would say that this feeling is familiar to any woman who wears a hot, vaguely slutty dress but covers it up with a coat because she doesn't want to be whistled at on the street. Women too have been trained to take many precautions that men don't feel are necessary, and we get used to it even though we didn't like the unfairness of it. No, do you honestly suppose that a guy could walk down the street in that same hot slutty dress and NOT get hassled? There are places in the Deep South where a guy doing that would risk broken bones, sexual assault, a night in the cells and possibly a police record as a sex offender. As a straight guy, there's a lot of "cheeky" or "kinky" clothing you can't wear in public without it being taken as a public declaration of some minority sexual orientation, that some people will declare themselves to be offended by. Because it's usually only the gay blokes who are determined enough to wear that gear in public to make a point, and are prepared to risk being beaten up for it. The rest of us aren't usually motivated enough to risk having our heads kicked in for a mere fashion whim. The comfort limit for most guys when it comes to provocative clothing is a brightly coloured teeshirt, or maybe a teeshift with something slightly rude printed on it, unless they pick some sort of clothing theme that is immediately recognisable ("oh, he's a goth"). On the plus side, we blokes are allowed to take our tops off in hot weather. On the minus side, woe betide us if anyone catches a glimpse of our dreaded lower parts. That can get us sent to prison and labelled as a menace to society. Women have done a good job of asserting that breasts and pussies are nice things that people shouldn't be ashamed of owning, but guys still have to deal with the idea that our bits are considered so obscene and disgusting, and even a photo or drawing of them is usually illegal. If a girlfriend takes a polaroid of your bits in a happy state with your permission that's still a serious criminal offence that can get you and her five years in prison if the authorities find out and decide that they don't like you and want to press charges. Maybe that's why so many guys are so enthusiastic about sending pictures of their private parts to people they like on CollarMe. It's like they've finally discovered a place where admitting to owning a penis isn't considered to be evil, and maybe the rush of freedom overrides their better judgement. Look! My Penis! Wha-hey! Think of it as the counterpart of the 1960's bra-burning demonstrations but on a much smaller scale.

SusanofO -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 10:59:47 AM)
Now I feel guilty dogthing. You have me on the verge of tears. [;)] (yes, I am kidding. I do see your point. I really do). Give me your tired, your poor. Your dick-pics, hehe (I am kidding, I really am). Men are prohibited from showing their naughty-bits. No doubt about it. The situation is not equitable, and men do not need to feel ashamed of their bodies, IMO. - Susan

cjenny -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 11:01:38 AM)
dogthing that was a great post.

slave2feet07 -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 11:32:37 AM)
It all comes down to that a lot of today's women are malignant narcissists. So many women are more in love with them selves and their gender than they are with men.

SusanofO -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 12:19:43 PM)
Even the ones with nice feet? [;)][:D] - Susan

StellaByStarlite -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 12:21:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slave2feet07 It all comes down to that a lot of today's women are malignant narcissists. So many women are more in love with them selves and their gender than they are with men. "Maligant narcissist" sounds kinda hawwwt. I wonder if a domme ever considered putting that on her profile. j/k Seriously, though... that's a bit extreme. Got bitter? lol Cheers, Stella

novicecourtesan -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 12:54:36 PM)
dogthing, that waas a nice post, but don't take society's censure of your private parts too seriously. Some of us girls grew up being told that our genitals were dirty and the boys were even dirtier, and it's pretty much what brings us (happily) here to d/s today. The above example was just something that every woman has to think about whether she's gay or straight, anywhere in anytown. I meant it only as an example of the slient compromises we feel we are making. A woman in a slutty dress may not be asking for sex--yes, I'm actually saying this--because she just feels that beautiful and thinks she looks hot. Maybe she exercised for a month to get into it and or just had a baby and is proud of her figure. Or maybe she's heading for a gangbang. Either way, she covers up despite her good feelings. A precaution against a situation where women are at a serious disadvantage. No, you could change "woman in a slutty dress" to "man in a tutu" or "black kid in gangsta clothing" and it's always going to be a bad idea in some situation. Of all possible categorizations, I would guess that men, overall (gay, straight, whatever race) have to make less personal sacrifices than women (gay, straight whatever race) to satisfy society's standards.

domiguy -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 5:01:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos quote: ORIGINAL: novicecourtesan This is a random guess... But I'm going to guess that if you take any company in virtually any major industry, separate the men and the women, add up their respective salaries and divide by the number of men and women...the men's salary will almost always be higher, if not much higher, than the women's. Why? Because men have have most of the top executive and high-paying positions in most industries, even if the majority of employees are women. We can "guess" endlessly to and fro as well, but ultimately, we Americans in this day and age all live in the same country and enjoy the protections of the same freedoms and laws. Our society is inundated with a salad of biases from every direction which are hurdled by individuals from all walks of life every day. Though most can see the current popular bias in social engineering increasingly benefits the female sex, many are finding it's not necessarily a ticket to economic paradise. Women who put the victimization rhetoric aside and just do what it takes to get the jobs they want or need become forces to be reckoned with. If you want it, go get it. This applies to the woman trapped under the "glass ceiling" as much as it does the man trapped in the often less glamorous "glass cellar." I'm sorry but I have to disagree. We Americans live in a country where the freedoms and the laws do not even begin to be administered in any sort of a fashion that resembles equality....Yes in some of these cases women are favored over men, the death penalty for one. Yet as Chris Rock jokes that there is not a white man around who would trade places with him..."And I'm fucking rich!"...lol...Aside from people in search of a sex change I would pose the question if things are so rosy for women how many guys would be willing to trade their organs in on a permanent basis....The line starts here -------------------------------------------------------> (Domiguy looks at his watch...paces the floor...Five hours later....No one has showed up)

SusanofO -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 6:09:23 PM)
*slave2feet07:* I am still intrigued at what horrifically awful string of experiences has led someone to conclude all females are basically malignant narcissists. I've had some bad dates and disappointing partners before, I've even been raped, and golly - I still don't hate men. I think they're still cute and rascally, even if there are a definitely few bad apples floating around. Although I can imagine there could be severely trying circumstances that could lead someone to really feel burned by them, or even hate them, maybe. Ditto the potential reasons for hating females I suppose. I am not trying to pry (well maybe I am) but I am curious. I am trying to understand. I promise I won't make fun of your reasons for painting the entire female gender w/the same broad brush (really). If it's a "private thing", okay, but I am looking for some kind of reasons for your statement - you must have reasons for making it? - Susan

slave2feet07 -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 8:05:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO *slave2feet07:* I am still intrigued at what horrifically awful string of experiences has led someone to conclude all females are basically malignant narcissists. I've had some bad dates and disappointing partners before, I've even been raped, and golly - I still don't hate men. I think they're still cute and rascally, even if there are a definitely few bad apples floating around. Although I can imagine there could be severely trying circumstances that could lead someone to really feel burned by them, or even hate them, maybe. Ditto the potential reasons for hating females I suppose. I am not trying to pry (well maybe I am) but I am curious. I am trying to understand. I promise I won't make fun of your reasons for painting the entire female gender w/the same broad brush (really). If it's a "private thing", okay, but I am looking for some kind of reasons for your statement - you must have reasons for making it? - Susan I think there are a lot of great women out there but unfortunately I am disappointed with the majority of women out there for a lot of reasons. I have probably said too much and I shouldn't say more. What I have said in other threads, you will probably get a slight idea of why I think the way I do. I don't hate women but I dislike a lot of things that the majority of women think and do. Men are not so innocent either, but what annoys me is that many women seem to think their gender is perfect and no one should expose the bad things that they do but it seems okay for these same women to expose the bad things men do. I think in a way that women enjoy having men sex starved and a lot of women enjoy putting men down as for saying that all men want is sex and all the other crap they go on with. In other words I think many women purposely like to make men feel devalued. When a male makes a statment with most or all women are..... there seems to be lots of things to be critical about but these critical things remain silent when its a woman stating out that all men or most men are.... I don't think for a minute that there are as many men out there as women say there is who send crappy or sleazy first emails or the other bad things women say about men. I think women make out that there are more bad men than there really is just to put men down. When men make some negative statement and make out that lots of women do it, what do people think of him? I am just tired of the extreme double standards. I just like to have my pay back at times. Revenge is sweet :-) Don't take anything I say to heart.

novicecourtesan -> RE: gender bias in this life and these boards (2/23/2007 8:11:30 PM)
quote: Don't take anything I say to heart. don't worry. :)

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