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RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 9:24:28 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		I wouldn't trust anyone who's response to a question was "Just trust me".

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 9:29:27 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

When I initially started this thread, i was thinking about the thread in the "Ask a Master" section about a guy who'd left a girl in bondage and left for the evening, and there were burning candles in the toom, and also a live, large uncaged bird apparently flying around, that could have knocked over the candles. When she asked him about it later, he simply tod her to "not ask questions."

That thread situation initially posed has since turned out to be somewhat un-true, but still this problem exists. I can't imagine being expected to trust someone who'd leave a submissive in  that situation, much less be yelled for it for supposedly not being "submissive enough" if I bothered to mention their lack of concern for my welfare.

Yet, there are apparently more than a few Dominants who do these things, and expect the submissive to just say nothing. I think that's amazing, because personally, I think I'd leave (but that's me, and not everyone shares my POV).

I also realize there are responsible and caring Dominants out there (in case anyone is wondering if I think this).
- Susan 



above, you imply that a Dominant who would leave a bound submissive alone is irresponsible and uncaring. i think that is the sort of thing aSlavesLife was referring to, about "safety nazis." there is nothing wrong with people deciding that they are going to take certain overt safety precautions, or even with demanding that such precautions be taken if you are an unowned submissive. the problem arises when these people negatively label and judge those who do not follow the same precautions (and often assume no precautions are taken at all).

my Master has left me alone, bound, blindfolded, gagged, several times, the longest for about an hour i think (hard to say because i tend to zone out at those times). i suppose the house could have burned down. or more likely, i could have choked choked to death on the gag, maybe drowned in my own vomit, who knows. so yes, there are real risks. not highly probable, but possible. however my Master is far from uncaring, even further from irresponsible, and quite intelligent. He simply does not care to live a life with he and his property in a sterilized, hermetically sealed plastic bubble. that does not mean that he is never cautious or careful, far from it...but not excessively so, and he is a firm believer in the saying, the greater the risk, the greater the reward. so, no, i will not be kept 100% supersafe at all times, he will not consult various experts before subjecting me to every little thing, and we pay no heed to SSC or RACK. however the reason i am here, perfectly functional, reasonably healthy, today is because he DOES care, because he IS responsible, he does take the precautions he feels are necessary, and he wants to make sure i'm around to serve him for a long time to come.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 9:46:29 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		daddysprop247: Okay, but you detemined he is-was trustworthy - my real question is: How (initally) did you make that determination? Is there anything he could do that you envision being able to destoy the trust you obviously have in him?

Nobody is infallible, I don't think. This doesn't mean they cannot be trusted, just that people all are capable of making mistakes. It's when they (either the submissive or the Dominant) can't admit that possibility that I start to have real problems buying what they are trying to sell, I guess.

I think whatever people want to do is truly their own business. I am saying that I, personally, wouldn't put myself in a situation like the one where the candles were left burning, or if I had been in that situation, I'd end up seriously questioning my Dominant's judgment. If you wouldn't, and you want and choose to live with that, more power to you.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 9:52:12 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 9:50:47 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

above, you imply that a Dominant who would leave a bound submissive alone is irresponsible and uncaring. i think that is the sort of thing aSlavesLife was referring to, about "safety nazis." there is nothing wrong with people deciding that they are going to take certain overt safety precautions, or even with demanding that such precautions be taken if you are an unowned submissive. the problem arises when these people negatively label and judge those who do not follow the same precautions (and often assume no precautions are taken at all).


I have to say that the girl came to the boards acting like she was in fear of her life... we did not barge into their relationship spouting saftey crap at them. We gave our opinions.. which would never have been offered had it not been put out there for us to comment on. How does offering an asked for opinion make us safety nazis?

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/21/2007 10:15:03 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 9:55:15 AM   
aSlavesLife


Posts: 347
Joined: 12/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

When I initially started this thread, i was thinking about the thread in the "Ask a Master" section about a guy who'd left a girl in bondage and left for the evening, and there were burning candles in the toom, and also a live, large uncaged bird apparently flying around, that could have knocked over the candles. When she asked him about it later, he simply tod her to "not ask questions."

That thread situation initially posed has since turned out to be somewhat un-true, but still this problem exists. I can't imagine being expected to trust someone who'd leave a submissive in  that situation, much less be yelled for it for supposedly not being "submissive enough" if I bothered to mention their lack of concern for my welfare.

Yet, there are apparently more than a few Dominants who do these things, and expect the submissive to just say nothing. I think that's amazing, because personally, I think I'd leave (but that's me, and not everyone shares my POV).

I also realize there are responsible and caring Dominants out there (in case anyone is wondering if I think this).
- Susan 



above, you imply that a Dominant who would leave a bound submissive alone is irresponsible and uncaring. i think that is the sort of thing aSlavesLife was referring to, about "safety nazis." there is nothing wrong with people deciding that they are going to take certain overt safety precautions, or even with demanding that such precautions be taken if you are an unowned submissive. the problem arises when these people negatively label and judge those who do not follow the same precautions (and often assume no precautions are taken at all).

my Master has left me alone, bound, blindfolded, gagged, several times, the longest for about an hour i think (hard to say because i tend to zone out at those times). i suppose the house could have burned down. or more likely, i could have choked choked to death on the gag, maybe drowned in my own vomit, who knows. so yes, there are real risks. not highly probable, but possible. however my Master is far from uncaring, even further from irresponsible, and quite intelligent. He simply does not care to live a life with he and his property in a sterilized, hermetically sealed plastic bubble. that does not mean that he is never cautious or careful, far from it...but not excessively so, and he is a firm believer in the saying, the greater the risk, the greater the reward. so, no, i will not be kept 100% supersafe at all times, he will not consult various experts before subjecting me to every little thing, and we pay no heed to SSC or RACK. however the reason i am here, perfectly functional, reasonably healthy, today is because he DOES care, because he IS responsible, he does take the precautions he feels are necessary, and he wants to make sure i'm around to serve him for a long time to come.


Amen! While L has not been with me nearly so long as you with Yours, it is my desire to keep her well and whole for years to come. And since I managed to keep my first slave alive for 8 years ( before releasing her, not killing her, LOL ) prior to my finding L, I must be on the right track concerning safety, even though I am told how unsafe my practices are.

L's late master practiced in much the same way as I do, and in some ways more extreme than I, and managed to keep her alive for the better part of a decade. The funny thing is, the stuff about safety that puts me at odds with many people is the very same thing that brought L and myself together. She took a fancy to me because my ideas regarding safe practices were identical to her late owners. The position I am defending even now is the same position that brought me to her attention to begin with.


_____________________________

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 9:59:52 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		The above might be "acceptable", or not - and whether people want to engage in such life-style practices is up to them I suppose, but the above statement really doesn't answer the intital question, which was: How does a Domiant initially try to prove he really is trustworthy to a prospective submissive, and how is she supposed to be able to judge whether he is or not?

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 10:04:59 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to aSlavesLife)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 10:07:51 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Most of the Masters and Mistresses I've spoken to, Susan, don't feel the need to try to prove anything at all.  They let their way of living speak for itself.  A slave (sub) must consider that with his/her sense of judgment and instincts and at some point, unless one wants a complete check-off list and insurance policy (heh), a leap of faith must be made.  In my case, my Master answered almost every question I asked him. I say "most" because some answers were simply not my business at the time.  Knowing what he does for a living and growing to learn him personally went a long way.  I think that's what most of the folks have been saying here. 

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 10:08:16 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Okay, but you detemined he was trustworthy - my real question is: How (initally) did you make that determination? Is ther anything he could do that you envision being able to destoy the trust you obviously have in him?

Nobody is infallible, I don't think. This doesn't mean they cannot be trusted, just that people all are capable of making mjistakes. It's when they can't admit that possibility that I start to have real problems buying what they are trying to sell, I guess.

I think whatever people want to do is truly their own business. I am saying that I, personally, wouldn't put myself in a situation like the one where the candles were left burning, or if I had been in that situation, I'd end up seriousl questioning my Dominant's judgment. if you wouldn't, and you want and choose to live with that, more power to you.

- Susan



i avoided answering the question you posed in the OP because i really don't have a clear answer for it. i didn't have absolute trust in my Master before i agreed to become his property...that sort of thinking has never been a part of my mindset. i agreed to be his not because of trust, but because of instinct, for lack of a better term. i just "knew" he was the Man i was meant to belong to, tho i couldn't have explained why if you had offered me a million bucks. it was just a gut feeling.
the trust developed as time went on, as i got to know and understand him better. i trust him never to intentionally cause me any permanent harm, physical or emotional (at least not without good reason), and i trust in his love for me. however it's always been crystal clear that he will take risks, sometimes significant risks, with what is his, not out of lack of concern or responsibility, but simply because it's his perogative, and something he needs/wants to do at that moment. that was something i understood and accepted before getting into this thing, and for me that acceptance was far more impacting and comforting than trust.

so, say he leaves me alone in a house, bound, gagged, candles burning, bird flying about. my thoughts would not be "i trust him implicitly, therefore i know no harm will come to me"....but rather "this is what he wants to do with me. okay. such is life. i hope i serve well and that he will be proud of me when he returns."

does anyone recall that episode of Law & Order SVU where a "lifestyle" Master kept one of his slaves strapped in a lil box under the bed? at the very end when the police came to rescue her, after her being there for several days, the only thing she said to them was to please tell her Master that she was good, that she did not cry out, that she didn't make a sound. and she hadn't, they'd searched the house several times and she had never made a peep. here she was, dirty, starving, left alone for days, and still the top thought in her mind was her Master's pleasure. obviously that's an extreme, made-for-tv example, but that's the sort of mindset my Master strives to instill within me. it's about making the transition from the more vanilla "you love me and are responsible for me therefore you will always be careful with me," to the more appropriate (for us) "this is what you desire, therefore it is right and good."

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 10:11:23 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Okay, thanks for answering my question. I don't think I'd have problems doing potentially really dangerous things with a Dominant I really truly trusted (although the burning candle thing is out, at least for me).

I'd have severe problems with a Dominant who honestly believed himself to be truly infallible, though - and that seems to be what some of them want submissives to believe they are. 

I say this due to the way I hear some react when a submissive asks what I consider a totally reasonable question (like the submissive in the burning candle scenario). I guess it's just coming down to how much a submissive (or slave) really trusts their  own judgment - as far as choosing a good Dominant, not actually the Dominant's own particular judgment, in all situations. 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 10:31:11 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 10:21:02 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		aSlavesLife,

From your post to me, I think I begin to understand the foundation of your aggravation with this issue. People who are told or learn "this is the way" and then follow that blindly. Anyone who takes as gospel what they are told without question would make me uncomfortable, too. (And there is an epidemic of this going around these days).

Despite this, there is a reason I believe in the safety rules as a foundation. It is because the reality is that there are a lot of people new to the fetish world. When someone doesn't really know what they are doing, it is very beneficial for them to have a definite set of do's and don'ts. As they become more experienced, they can begin to adjust the rules to fit their own situation.

For example, I was at an NLA workshop a few months ago where someone was demonstrating corporal techniques. One of the big don'ts is never strike the back of the neck. The gentleman doing the demonstration was very skilled in this art, and he railed against the safety Nazis as well, saying "of course you can hit the neck, and here is how you do it". Well that is fine as long as you know the proper technique, but I wouldn't want any beginning Dom to go near this part of the body. For them, don't ever strike the neck should be engraved in stone.

You said:
They actually hinder the means of making people safer in their zeal to make people safer because they adhere to their ways in a quasi-religious, emotion driven manner rather than a rational, inquisitive one.

I'm not at all sure that follows. As I said at the beginning, people should not take what they are told without questioning. But I can't see how those who do are making the fetish scene less safe. They may be restricting their growth, but safe rules are safe rules. Being zealous about them do not turn them into unsafe rules.

You say you are trying to be innovative by finding safe ways to do some of the things defined as unsafe. And you suggest you are persecuted because of that. I don't inherently have a problem with trying to think outside the box. You have to expect though, that if you are going to swim upstream against the crowd, you are going to get a lot of flack because of it. It may not be fair, but it is human nature.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to aSlavesLife)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 10:25:29 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for posting about why safety ideas are in place for Newbies, as well as others, Sir Dominic. That makes sense to me. If not everybody wants to follow them I think that's fine (if they can live with the consequences, or potential consequences), but that doesn't mean there's not a good reason they exist.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 10:30:23 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 10:29:28 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
so, say he leaves me alone in a house, bound, gagged, candles burning, bird flying about. my thoughts would not be "i trust him implicitly, therefore i know no harm will come to me"....but rather "this is what he wants to do with me. okay. such is life. i hope i serve well and that he will be proud of me when he returns."


If this were to happen, this is an ideal example of pure folly. On the Master's part for putting his slave in such a precarious situation, and the slave for not having a huge problem with it.

This is not putting trust in a Master, it is blindly accepting the Master's judgement, two radically different things. I cannot conceive of a more unhealthy M/s relationship.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 10:38:18 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic



If this were to happen, this is an ideal example of pure folly. On the Master's part for putting his slave in such a precarious situation, and the slave for not having a huge problem with it.

This is not putting trust in a Master, it is blindly accepting the Master's judgement, two radically different things. I cannot conceive of a more unhealthy M/s relationship.

Namaste, Sir Dominic


you are right, what i described above is not about putting trust in a Master, that really was my point...that for some of us, some things are more important than trust. but blindly accepting the Master's judgement? that wouldn't be accurate either. more like, unconditionally accepting the Master's will.

for you, that's an unhealthy M/s relationship. for others, it's the foundation of a successful M/s relationship.

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 10:38:22 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Someone mentioned this on the thread in the "Ask A Master" section I referred to as well. I think that I agree constantly questioning a Master's judgment woud probably ruin the dynamic in a D/s relationship, I do think there are situations that could arise where questioning it might not be out of line, and light in fact, save one's life. That is of course, just my own opinion (and wanting to determine how people concluded a Dominant was trustworthy or not, initially, led me to post this thread).

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 10:54:58 AM   
slaveish


Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		Oh boy.

My first bit of wisdom (keeping in mind it is just a small bit) is that, for me, it is easier to trust experienced Doms and Masters because they know who they are, what they are, and what they want. They (to my way of thinking) are less likely to pretend to be one thing when they are opposite of that thing because they know the time and training it will take to find a good submissive or slave.

Similarly, it is probably easier for an experienced sub or slave to find the Dom or Master she is looking for. Hopefully, she (whether new or ... not new) will talk with Him, learn Him, and then make a decision. We all have reasons for trusting or not trusting and I think we should listen to our inner voices, even when it is offering the less desirable instant solution.

I can only express those things that are important to me, and each of these things take time to discover. Outwardness is important to me. Is He who He says He is? Do His actions match His words? Are His actions those with which you can live over the long haul? And the most important thing, less to do with Him and all to do with the sub or slave, is she being honest with ~herself~?

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 10:57:30 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		slaveish: Thanks for the reply.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to slaveish)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 11:02:10 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

If this were to happen, this is an ideal example of pure folly. On the Master's part for putting his slave in such a precarious situation, and the slave for not having a huge problem with it.

This is not putting trust in a Master, it is blindly accepting the Master's judgement, two radically different things. I cannot conceive of a more unhealthy M/s relationship.

Namaste, Sir Dominic


I've said in other threads, and it seems to bear repeating here...I trust my Master is an imperfect being.  I trust he will make mistakes.  But I trust his judgment overall.  So far, in nearly 3 years now, he has about a 95% accuracey rate of being dead on right in his decisions.  So in my dynamic, I trust that he will always use his best judgment, and that part of his judgment includes about a 5% error rate.  I accept his judgments.  I trust in his wisdom.  I trust he will make errors and I accept them.  I trust he will correct them (when he can) if he does. 

I don't think that's unhealthy at all.  I've been put in frightening situations before, and responded exactly as prop did.  My thought was, "This is where he wants me, so this is where I will be."  As a result, he knows he can count on me to do anything he asks of me.  He knows if he puts me somewhere, I will stay, unless an act of nature of some other unforeseen circumstance would warrant his desire for me to escape (which we have previously discussed). 

I'm not sure I see the unhealthiness of that.  If I were to question his actions, putting my judgment before his, then I could not have the dynamic I currently have and need.

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 11:02:52 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		SirDominic,

I enjoyed reading this response, thanks for contributing it

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 11:10:27 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

The above might be "acceptable", or not - and whether people want to engage in such life-style practices is up to them I suppose, but the above statement really doesn't answer the intital question, which was: How does a Domiant initially try to prove he really is trustworthy to a prospective submissive, and how is she supposed to be able to judge whether he is or not?

- Susan


I wanted to comment that it is not just the dominant that must prove that they are trustworthy, the submissive must also. In a different way the dominant is putting his life in her hands too if the play hard enough to leave a bruise.

If a submissive is a fruitloop she could scream abuse after a consensual scene. All that the dominant has to go by that the submissive will not do so is her word. She could cause him to lose his liberty, reputation, perhaps endanger his right to his children by claiming to be a victim instead of a participant.

I know that when my Daddy and I first played he had fears too, in fact he said it was a leap of trust to leave bruises of any sort on me. He knew that by doing so he could have a knock on his door from the police, but he chose to trust me to hit me hard enough to mark me. I chose to put myself in his hands and that he would only do what I had agreed to.

That tacit agreement always exists.. I trust him not to harm me, he trusts me never to use our play against him... so the trust goes two ways.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your l... - 2/21/2007 11:15:45 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Another question on the "Ask A  Master" section tonight got me thinking of exactly how most submissives determine trustworthiness in a prospective Dominant?

Susan 


Trust isn't a blanket thing. You don't trust everything about someone, it's gradual and grows.........You initially trust what you know; which will be very little at first. I didn't ever think * Do I trust him?*.

Sometimes it's a good idea to turn that around and ask *Why SHOULDN'T I trust him?*.

There simply wasn't a time when any doubt was introduced. There weren't any inconsistencies in the smallest , most insignificant things.

M didn't SAY he was anything .....he just WAS what he portrayed. Having said that, neither of us were viewing the other as a *potential* but the same would apply if we had been. There wasn't any pressing NEED to trust in any particular way.

If I'm wondering whether I trust someone .......I know that I don't.

Regards, agirl







(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 60
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