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Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 3:02:05 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I was listening to the BBC world service while I worked and one of the features was of an artist who was corresponding to a death row inmate in Georgia and was having an exhibition based on the letters. The programme went over the case and it was said that based on the evidence it is difficult to see how a guilty verdict could have been reached. This is not the first case I have heard about where lazy or dullard police work and similar legal defence having left someone waiting execution on death row. Why are so many death sentences so questionable? Worse, why after several appeals the evidence isn't reviewed properly or is technically inadmissable. I'm not suggesting the US is the only developed nation to have miscarriages of justice but it is the only one to execute people for the shortcomings of its criminal justice system.

http://www.exoneratejack.org/

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 5:10:50 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
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Status: offline 		Look on the bright side, once they're dead, they'll never commit a crime again, regardless of guilt or innocence.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 5:19:32 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
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Status: offline 		Keep in mind that you are only hearing one side of this story.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 5:35:31 AM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
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Status: offline 		    "Tookie never killed nobody.  Tookie don't deserve to die."

   Oops, wrong 'innocent' guy.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 5:37:28 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		It is amazing how many people convicted of murder claim innocence and there is never a shortage of people prepared to totally accept that claim.

Having said that the possibility, not to say downright certainty of executing the innocent is the only argument I can see against the death penalty. Pretty powerful one too !!!!

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 5:55:19 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		If there is 'only one' argument against the death penalty (and yes, the huge failings of the justice system and its capacity for carrying out miscarriages of justice is one; and no, I shan't even reiterate the numerous other arguments that demonstrate how wrong legalised murder is), then surely, any civilised country ought to abolish it? Let the US be a civilised country: PLEASE.

Peace.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 6:20:43 AM   
Aubre


Posts: 478
Joined: 12/9/2004
Status: offline 		What would people think if this was the list of offenses that a country thought warranted the death penalty?

embezzlement, fraud, people trafficking, piracy, theft, corruption, arson, endangering national security, pimping, and many drug offenses?

These are among the 68 known capital offenses that can get you the death penalty in the People's Republic of China. Sentences are usually carried out in less than one year, but usually much shorter (since they sell the organs from the condemned that may play a part on when a particular person gets executed). They use bullets and now they are doing some by lethal injection. They have been known to charge the family of the condemned a "bullet fee" to help defray the costs of executions.

Currently, they carry out ~90% of the world's executions each year. Still, they have a ways to go to catch up with Uncle Joe and Pol Pot.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 6:22:03 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		There have been 195 post-conviction DNA exonerations of prisoners wrongfully convicted of crimes, in 31 states in the U.S., due to DNA testing, since 1989.

The average length of time these  people served, before being released, is 12 years. That should be enough to give many people pause about the possibility of mistakes being made about who belongs on death row. Thank God for The Innocence Project, and others like it. 

Twenty-two states in the U.S. have enacted compensation statutes to compensate victims (financially) for each year they spend wrongfully imprisoned, but 28 states have no such compensation statutes - which means the person is released with no resources whatsoever to get their life back on track, aside from help from any loving relatives or friends. In some cases, relatives and friends have long since disappeared from the person's life.

In many cases, their families have exhausted their financial resources already, trying to prove their innocence. These prisoners have wasted years of their lives behind bars for some crime they did not commit, and are left to their own devices completely, once they are finally released.  

I cannot imagine being imprisoned for years for a crime I did not commit, can you? No, this doesn't only happen in the U.S., I'm afraid. 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 6:56:50 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 6:23:25 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Look on the bright side, once they're dead, they'll never commit a crime again, regardless of guilt or innocence.


subrob1967:
Should this sort of thing ever happen to you would you like this quip on your tombstone?
thompson

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 6:26:08 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Keep in mind that you are only hearing one side of this story.

caitlyn:
Should you be interested in the other side of the story I would think that it would be easy enough for you to acquaint yourself with it.
thompson

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 6:34:13 AM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		Aubre:
I noticed that you failed to include Andrew Jackson in your list of mass murderers...probably just an oversight on your part.
thompson

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 6:37:24 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

There have been 195 post-conviction DNA exonerations of death row inmates in 31 states in the U.S. due to DNA testing. The average length of time they served before being released is 12 years. That should be enough to give many people pause about the possibility of mistakes being made about who belongs on death row. Thank God for the Innocence Project, and others like it. 

Twenty-two states in the U.S. have enacted compensation statutes to compensate victims (finanically) for each year they spend wrongfully imprisoned, but 28 states have no such compensation statutes - which means the person is released with no resources whatsoever to get their life back on track, aside from help from any loving relatives or friends. They've wasted years of their lives behind bars for some crime they did not commit, and are left to their own devices completely, once they are finally released.  

I cannot imagine being imprisoned for years for a crime I did not commit, can you? However, if you think this does not happen in other countries, too, you are sorely mistaken, I'm afraid. 

- Susan



Susan:
Berry Sheck is a great man.
thompson

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 6:44:21 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		I think so, too. I think it's sad some can end up wrongfully convicted. Maybe it is inevitable, given our justice system, but thank God for DNA testing.

I just read that the biggest problem as far as wrongful convictions continues to be bad eye-witness identification. Contrary to popular belief, the biggest problem is not mis-application of forensic evidence (although that is also apparently quite a problem).  But I shudder to think how many were never given a chance to redress this wrong before DNA testing came along.

I realize there are also plenty of guilty folks claiming they are innocent. But it's still no reason to convict or punish innocent people by throwing them in prison, or executing them.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 7:09:06 AM >

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 6:46:33 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

It is amazing how many people convicted of murder claim innocence and there is never a shortage of people prepared to totally accept that claim.

Having said that the possibility, not to say downright certainty of executing the innocent is the only argument I can see against the death penalty. Pretty powerful one too !!!!


How many  innocent 'Irish terrorists' would be dead now if Britain had the death penalty? I can't think of the number off the top of my head but I'd say at least between 10-15. I remember one retired judge saying about one campaign to free some 'terrorists', if we had the death penalty this wouldn't be a problem.

That episode caused the rethink of the whole British criminal justice system and the introduction of the Crown Prosecution Service. The Service the police and many others complain about for not bringing charges against 'guilty' people.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 6:54:08 AM   
missturbation


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From: another planet
Status: offline 		This is why i do not believe in the death sentence, you execute an innocent man there is no going back. You imprison him although unfair if it is proved hes innocent he can be released and get on with his life.
 
Not saying the person in this case is innocent or not - just a general opinion.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 6:58:17 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aubre

What would people think if this was the list of offenses that a country thought warranted the death penalty?

embezzlement, fraud, people trafficking, piracy, theft, corruption, arson, endangering national security, pimping, and many drug offenses?

These are among the 68 known capital offenses that can get you the death penalty in the People's Republic of China. Sentences are usually carried out in less than one year, but usually much shorter (since they sell the organs from the condemned that may play a part on when a particular person gets executed). They use bullets and now they are doing some by lethal injection. They have been known to charge the family of the condemned a "bullet fee" to help defray the costs of executions.

Currently, they carry out ~90% of the world's executions each year. Still, they have a ways to go to catch up with Uncle Joe and Pol Pot.


And your point?

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 7:00:27 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Well I think his point is probably that the U.S. does not have the most corrupt justice system in the world. I think he's right, but mis-carriage of justice certainly does happen in the U.S., without a doubt. There are other places that are undoubtedly worse, but that's hardly an uplifting thought. I think it's sad this kind of thing happens anywhere. I just think DNA testing is such a wonderful development. It's expensive, though, and in some places, it's still not used as often as it should be, including in the U.S. In some places it isn't used at all.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 7:05:14 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 8:09:09 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Well lets take embezzlement or fraud.

Say a business, represented by its management, takes contributions over a large number of years to be invested in a pension scheme for the employees. The firm goes broke. In many cases the executives have had large payoffs and Voila theres no money in the pension scheme. A famous case in the UK was Robert Maxwell.

Would it be so bad if the managers faced execution. ?

MC: Lord Devlin made that ludicrous statement. His reputation never recovered. Tho' he was in his late 80's I think when he said it.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 8:09:15 AM   
Aubre


Posts: 478
Joined: 12/9/2004
Status: offline 		thompsonx,

Andrew Jackson could very well be on that list if he was a communist ( I live not far from Horseshoe Bend and go there from time to time, and I have an aquaintance who is decended from William Weatherford, the Creek leader at Horseshoe Bend). I was comparing the current Chinese regime with two particularly prolific executioners of communism's past.

It's interesting to note that Andrew Jackson's forces killed more British troops at the Battle of New Orleans (fought technically after the War of 1812 was over) than Creek Indians killed at Horseshoe Bend (which occured months earlier).

meatcleaver,

I was just pointing out the state of capital punishment in the country that carries out the most executions in a thread entitled Death Penalty.

< Message edited by Aubre -- 2/21/2007 8:11:22 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 8:14:21 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

There have been 195 post-conviction DNA exonerations of prisoners wrongfully convicted of crimes, in 31 states in the U.S., due to DNA testing, since 1989.

The average length of time these  people served, before being released, is 12 years. That should be enough to give many people pause about the possibility of mistakes being made about who belongs on death row. Thank God for The Innocence Project, and others like it. 

Twenty-two states in the U.S. have enacted compensation statutes to compensate victims (financially) for each year they spend wrongfully imprisoned, but 28 states have no such compensation statutes - which means the person is released with no resources whatsoever to get their life back on track, aside from help from any loving relatives or friends. In some cases, relatives and friends have long since disappeared from the person's life.

In many cases, their families have exhausted their financial resources already, trying to prove their innocence. These prisoners have wasted years of their lives behind bars for some crime they did not commit, and are left to their own devices completely, once they are finally released.  

I cannot imagine being imprisoned for years for a crime I did not commit, can you? No, this doesn't only happen in the U.S., I'm afraid. 

- Susan


Susan, good point.
We should have a minumum time in jail first for death row inmates say 20 years to make time to prove their innocense.
And we should compensate innocent people who are jailed mistakenly! Say about $200,000 for each year in jail by mistake.
If that happened to me I'd be a one man crime wave when I got out.
I'd kill whoever prosecuted me.
And not with a gun either but with a knife to get up close and personal.
I think those lazy, incompetant prosecutors should be prosecuted and punished for destroying someone's life.
If the innocent person spent 12 years in prison then so should the prosecutor and in the general population! ("Bendover college boy!")
Now there are a lot of people who are proved guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt like Ted Bundy.
He escaped from custody twice and almost did from death row in Florida. He was trying to walk out with a group of visitors when an alert guard caught him.
People like that you simply cannot take a chance with!
Can you imagine what would have happened if he'd managed to escape?
So I'd say if someone gets the death penalty let them go for 20 years in jail first then fry them.

(in reply to SusanofO)
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