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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 8:17:45 AM

subfever

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quote:

There have been 195 post-conviction DNA exonerations of prisoners wrongfully convicted of crimes, in 31 states in the U.S., due to DNA testing, since 1989.

The average length of time these people served, before being released, is 12 years. That should be enough to give many people pause about the possibility of mistakes being made about who belongs on death row.

'Nuff said.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 8:24:58 AM

SusanofO

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I am counting on the fact that thes e incompetent and corrupt prosecutors, as well as guilty prisoners (or the guilty who are free at the expense of the innocent), are going to get their come-uppance in the next life. But that's a religious belief. I still think we need prisons, unfortunately.

I must admit I wouldn't bat an eye if pension-defuaders got life in prison. I have a real hard time with some of the sentence differences for so-called "white collar" and "other" crimes (murder, rape, etc.)

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 8:33:23 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 8:50:34 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I am counting on the fact that thes e incompetent and corrupt prosecutors, as well as guilty prisoners (or the guilty who are free at the expense of the innocent), are going to get their come-uppance in the next life. But that's a religious belief. I still think we need prisons, unfortunately.

I must admit I wouldn't bat an eye if pension-defuaders got life in prison. I have a real hard time with some of the sentence differences for so-called "white collar" and "other" crimes (murder, rape, etc.)

- Susan

Susan, they were handing out some pretty stiff sentances in all those "Enron" type cases as well they should.
Martha Stewart got off very easy for that insider trading stuff!
She should have done 10 years for that!
I always thought that there should be the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" but I see cases where there is nothing but doubt that still end up guilty!
"He could have done it!"
No shit, so could have 100,000 other people!
Jurys should be better instructed on "reasonable doubt."
If I were on a jury and it appeared that someone "may" have done something I'd vote "not guilty."
It is up to the police and prosecutors to "prove" beyond any reasonable doubt that someone "did" something.
If there's ANY doubt at all then the verdict should be "not guilty."
As a juror I wouldn't be willing to put someone in jail or the gallows if I had any doubt about their guilt.
It would have to be pretty much "iron clad."

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:02:31 AM

GeekyGirl

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As a person who works in law enforcement/confinement, I have to admit that I have little tolerance for inmates in general. A huge percentage of them are guilty,and most will TELL you so (regardless of what they say on the stand...) Personally, I don't like the idea of my tax dollars going to support a death row inmate for 20yrs. Do you have any idea how much it costs to keep these people? Their medical bills alone are outrageous.

That said, I do have some issues with the death penalty...I believe in it, but I also believe that it's B.S the way that it is handled sometimes. Two examples:

Case A. Lisa Coleman and her lover Marcella Williams were charged with capital murder after abuse, neglect, and starvation of Williams' small son led to his death. Some of you may have heard this one in the news. I worked with Coleman personally for almost two years. She persisted throughout the time that she had constantly urged Williams to see medical treatment for the boy. Now granted, Coleman should have called the authorities, but she was not the main actor in the situation. Yet somehow Williams, the boys own mother, gets life in jail and Coleman gets the death penalty. I don't think that is right or fair. If anything, they BOTH should have gotten the death penalty.

Case 2: I don't remember all the names in this one but Man A is dating a girl name Richardson. Man A's parents are very wealthy and he wants their money. So he and Richardson hire Man B and his girlfriend Toledano to kill his parents. They all get arrested. Now in texas, there is no such thing as an accomplice...if you hire someone to do the crime or assist with the crime, you are guilty of the same crime. Out of the four people, Richardson, the girlfriend, is the only one who gets the death penalty. The only one! All the others get nothing but jail time. Fair? Nope.

See what I'm saying? The death penalty works in theory but it's not be utilized properly. People turn evidence and walk away with a few years jail time while their co-conspirators get life.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:11:25 AM

popeye1250

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Corrections Officer?
It was bad enough arresting those assholes, I wouldn't want to be locked-up with them for 8 hours a day!

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:16:14 AM

missturbation

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'Those assholes' no matter what they have done are still people.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:20:18 AM

GeekyGirl

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I actually love the job, crazy as that sounds! I work in the county jail and I think it's a very interesting gig :) The same does not hold true for being a prison guard though... I always like to make that clarification as I have done both. Prisons are corrupt, underpaid, and don't thoroughly screen the people they hire. The county on the other hand pays significantly better (I made $7/hr at the prison...make $18/hr at the jail.), it offers better benefits, an awesome retirement plan, puts people through an excrutiating hiring process, and is, for the most part, on the level. They also require state licensing through TCLEOSE which prisons do NOT require usually.

All that said, being with them 8hrs a day isn't so bad. You get to see an awful lot of intereting/high profile stuff and it's really a fascinating job.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:22:52 AM

GeekyGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

'Those assholes' no matter what they have done are still people.

I disagree. Do you work in a jail? I have done so for 4 years.

Some of them are people...especially those there for petty crime and drugs.

Many of them are NOT people. They ceased being anything remotely resembling human years ago. Until you have looked into their eyes, you have no right to comment.

I know a man who beat his wife to death with a hammer in front of their 6yr old son. That man has nothing going on behind his eyes. He is not a "person." He is a primate lifeform but that's it.

Spend 40hrs a week with murderers, rapists, and pedophiles and then give me your opinion on whether or not they are "people." I've seen enough a thousand times over to know differently.

ETA: It's funny how people who've never been exposed think they know so much...a lot of these people in jail would just as soon slit your throat as to look at you and will give it about as much thought.

< Message edited by GeekyGirl -- 2/21/2007 9:24:22 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:25:41 AM

farglebargle

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People like to pretend we don't have Political Prisoners sitting in prison. It makes them feel the USA is somehow special.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:27:38 AM

missturbation

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I disagree. Do you work in a jail? I have done so for 4 years.
Nope and would not choose to do so. I do however know several criminals who are people. I have a few pen pals in prison for various crimes and whilst i do not agree with what any one of them did i like them. They are kind, caring and lovely friends to me.
Many of them are NOT people. They ceased being anything remotely resembling human years ago. Until you have looked into their eyes, you have no right to comment.
I agree some criminals are just that 'non - human' in behaviour. But why? Could be any number of reasons. As for i have no right to comment well i believe i can comment on just about anything i like.
Spend 40hrs a week with murderers, rapists, and pedophiles and then give me your opinion on whether or not they are "people." I've seen enough a thousand times over to know differently.
I choose not to - you choose to *shrugs*
Still does not make my opinion any less valid than yours.
It's funny how people who've never been exposed think they know so much...a lot of these people in jail would just as soon slit your throat as to look at you and will give it about as much thought.
Dont presume to tell me what i know and what i dont know.

< Message edited by missturbation -- 2/21/2007 9:28:48 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:29:54 AM

SusanofO

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Well I think who is being held at Guatanamo Bay (supposed terrorists) is a whole other conversation - but yes, the U.S. has political prisoners, some are probably there for good reason, and some are probably not. Last year, a whole bunch of them (hundreds) were released. In any case, many are still being held without any legal representation. They may get some eventually, but it will be slow going.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 9:30:51 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:31:43 AM

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I wasn't talking about the Secret Prisoners. Just people locked up because they're inconvenient. Remember Kevin Mitnick? 5 years without a bail hearing.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:33:19 AM

GeekyGirl

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It makes your opinion a hell of a lot less valid than mine...

I see hundreds of them a day every day. You say you know "several"..how many is that? 10? 20? I bet it's not the 3500+ that we have incarcerated in our jail every day.

How many serial murderers do you know? How many baby-rapers? How many serial rapists? We aren't talking about Joe Schmoe with an ounce of Marijuana in his car or Bobby Smith who got in a bar fight. We are talking about evil people.

They weren't so "kind caring and lovely" when they were putting hammers through people's heads and watching the blood splatter on the face of their 6yr old or blowing people's brains out on the sidewalk and laughing about it.

I get really tired of this lovely-dovey "criminals are people too" stuff. I hear it every day and unless you work in the business, sorry, but I do NOT consider your opinion valid.

I could sit here and spout off opinions on brain surgery if I wanted to just because I've corresponded with a few doctors, but it wouldn't make my opinion valid.

If you want to associate with criminals, go ahead but don't fool yourself about what kind of people they are.

My own stepbrother is in prison and as far as I'm concerned, and as far as his parents are concerned, he doesn't even exist anymore. I would not associate with evil people.

< Message edited by GeekyGirl -- 2/21/2007 9:35:55 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:33:40 AM

SusanofO

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I agree it stinks. If you want a real eye-opener, just look up The Innocence Project website - it lists many cases where DNA evidence exonerated wrongfully imprisoned people, and truly shows how easily a case can turn out with a person being wrongfully convicted without carefully tested DNA evidence.

I also agree there are undoubtedly many in prison who really belong there. I sure don't want them released and living next door to me.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 9:40:02 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:39:00 AM

missturbation

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It makes your opinion a hell of a lot less valid than mine...
Maybe in your opinion.

How on earth does someone as judgemental and put 'everyone in a box' as you get to work in the prison / jail service? Bad attitude for the job.

Whilst there are those in prison who deserve probably nothing more than contempt there are also those who have made a mistake / mistakes.

There are many many reasons why people commit crime / crimes and that needs to be taken into account when dealing with them.

I would not associate with evil people.
Thats laughable - you do so on a daily basis in your job.

You know there can be no virtue without vice and vice versa and everybody is capable of both in the right / wrong circumstances.

< Message edited by missturbation -- 2/21/2007 9:40:51 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:39:58 AM

poetangelus

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look , I could get into a long detailed discussion about the death penalty, but you and all people that want it , simply want to exact vengence (sometimes on innocent people), so there is really no point! ALL PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT CAPITAL PUNISHMENT ARE MORONS!!!!!

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:42:27 AM

SusanofO

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I don't believe in capital punishment. But I also believe there is nothing like a personal experience to color a person's opinion. If I had a close relative who'd been murdered (which I never have, fortunately), I can see myself possibly changing my mind...

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/21/2007 9:56:04 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:44:57 AM

farglebargle

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My daughters are taught to kill any attackers. Not hurt. Not run. Kill.

Attack them, and they are Judge, Jury and Executioner.

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:46:00 AM

GeekyGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

It makes your opinion a hell of a lot less valid than mine...
Maybe in your opinion.

How on earth does someone as judgemental and put 'everyone in a box' as you get to work in the prison / jail service? Bad attitude for the job.

Whilst there are those in prison who deserve probably nothing more than contempt there are also those who have made a mistake / mistakes.

There are many many reasons why people commit crime / crimes and that needs to be taken into account when dealing with them.

I would not associate with evil people.
Thats laughable - you do so on a daily basis in your job.

You know there can be no virtue without vice and vice versa and everybody is capable of both in the right / wrong circumstances.

Apparantly you overlooked the part where I said I am NOT talking about petty crimes. Sorry, raping a baby isn't a mistake. Pointing a gun at somebody's head is not a mistake. Raping a woman is not a mistake.

Forgetting to pay your traffic tickets is a "mistake". Getting caught shoplifting as a teenager is a "mistake". Experimenting with weed is a "mistake". I think I already specified that we are not talking about those people.

I do not "put them all in the same box." I just said that there is a difference between the evil ones and the people who just made a bad decision.

There is no reason to commit a crime...even a petty one for that matter. I've never even had a traffic ticket. The law is the law...you respect it or you don't.

You speak like someone who never had one of those "kind lovely inmates" throw piss or shit on you. Let that happen a few times and see how human they seem to you.

As for my attitude being inappropriate, let me tell you...every officer I've ever seen get hurt, get someone else seriously hurt, get raped, or lose their job over involvement with an inmate was someone who spouted off about how "human" they are. The safest way you can look at them is as dangerous animals under your care. You feed them, you provide them medical care, and you don't harrass them...but make no buts about it, open the cage door and you'll be dead meat. You never ever forget that while these people may be "human" , they aren't the same KIND of human as you are. Housecats and tigers are both felines but they aren't the same KIND of feline and I wouldn't turn my back on a tiger or trust him.

< Message edited by GeekyGirl -- 2/21/2007 9:48:20 AM >

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RE: Death Penalty - 2/21/2007 9:53:05 AM

missturbation

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Apparantly you overlooked the part where I said I am NOT talking about petty crimes. Sorry, raping a baby isn't a mistake. Pointing a gun at somebody's head is not a mistake. Raping a woman is not a mistake.
I'm not talking about petty crimes either. Pointing a gun at someones head can never be a mistake? There can be no reason for this other than someone is evil? Thats rubbish. Raping a woman can be for a number of reasons including mental issues. Do people who have psych problems automatically fall into the class of evil? No i dont think they do, they are people who need help / treatment. Raping a baby is one im going to agree with you on the most although still as the results of mental illness it doesnt make them evil it makes them ill.
I am so glad i am not under your care. I never said these people could not or were not dangerous i said they were people too and in so being they need help / rehabilitation / medical treatment if appropriate. Of course there are always going to be the ones who are out and out evil, beyond help, animalistic but treating them like animals only makes them behave like them.

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