RE: Terri Schiavo

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onceburned -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/29/2005 3:47:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Bush and Congress continue to oppose expanding programs And I think Bush and the Republicans were behind the earthquake in Indonesia and the tsunami back in December. Merc, that reply is beneath you. quote: Saxton said she is "extremely concerned" about a proposed 25 percent cap on WIC funding from 2006 to 2010. The president's budget proposal could result in $658 million in funding cuts and more than 660,000 participants nationwide could lose services, she said. <snip>U.S. Department of Agriculture studies show pregnant women who participate in WIC have longer pregnancies leading to fewer premature births, fewer low birth weight babies and fewer fetal and infant deaths. http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14139537&BRD=2259&PAG=461&dept_id=455154&rfi=6 quote: Plans for a $16.6 billion reduction in spending on poverty programs started in the 1960s were presented earlier this month to county government representatives from across the country during a National Association of Counties meeting in Washington, said commission chairman Larry Gould, R-Seneca Twp. http://www.lenconnect.com/articles/2005/03/26/news/news01.txt quote: President Bush may truly care about the poor and about people down on their luck, and he may want the public and private sectors to join in efforts to help. But his actions suggest he is engaged in what the Wall Street Journal calls a “war on the war on poverty.” The latest evidence is the president’s budget proposals. Recommended spending caps not only erode the president’s own “No Child Left Behind” program, which holds schools accountable for academic achievement. The caps also slash funds from the WIC program for low-income mothers, and dramatically reduce funding for Head Start Community Development Block Grants, subsidized housing and Medicaid. http://www.christiancentury.org/edesk_article.html?articleid=196

snmsub -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/29/2005 3:48:41 PM)
that's quite an assumption to make... you have no idea whether I have children or not. In fact you know nothing about me, except for what I choose to share on these boards. How exactly do you measure the amount of love someone has for another person? How can you know that Terri's parents have more love for her than her husband does? Do you know them? Do you know him? Her husband stuck by for a very long time with virtually no hope and now is ready to let her go. Frankly, it's really no-ones business except for Terri, her husband and her parents. The rest of us have simply inserted our own morals and ideals into what should be a private matter.

MrThorns -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/29/2005 3:50:46 PM)
As far as I can tell, this whole thing has turned into yet another attempt by the religious right to have their individual values applied to everyone else. There is a grand hypocracy at work here: Gay marriage violates the sanctity of marriage, but we're going to strip the husband of his responsibility to make decisions that his wife is unable to make for herself. Abortion is dead wrong, but kids killed in times of war are collateral damage. Euthanasia is against the law, but execution is okay...because we know that without a doubt...that guy did the crime. Well...at least we think he did. I'm pretty sure he did... I'll forget about all this while I write emails to Billy Grahm and Senator Ley about the horrors of Howard Stern while my kids entertain themselves by watching Jerry Springer as soon as they get home from school. I know things aren't quite as black and white as that, but the holier than thou approach really makes me want to retch. I truly feel for the Schiavo family and can't even begin to imagine what they must be going through, but the choice is for the next of kin to make. Not the parents and certainly not the US Congress. ~Thorns

Mercnbeth -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/29/2005 3:59:23 PM)
quote: That seems to be your boilerplate response to any criticism of Bush. Levity is great but in this case (at least) it doesn't wash. The facts, the numbers speak for themselves. I realize your a Libertarian, which often equates, it seems to "Republican". The world is not binary, there are nuances, even contradictions. Atavist, Once again, I am NOT a Bush fanatic or even supporter. I am NOT Republican. And I sure as HELL am NOT religious - Right or otherwise. People can look at the horizon all they want for the calvary to ride in and "save" them but it just "ain't gonna happen!". If it makes people feel better to blame someone or have a reason for why they are so miserable, or why babies are dieing, or why it's raining the finger only points one way. Well, as much as I wish there was one - there was no other viable candidate last November, and more people then ever before voted that way. Live with it. And as much as I didn't like his integrity I defended Clinton the same way when the color of the sky was blamed on him because he needed a blow job. Hell, I bet if any of us had to live with Hilliary we'd all need one too! But, back to this thread. You want to challenge my position about this situation - challenge it - here it is... quote: Staying in character my anger isn't for any of the reasons mentioned. I'm angry that I know about Terri Schiavo. I'm angry that Congress decided that this woman was more important than any other issue facing the United States and wrote a Bill to have the case reviewed. This is not limited to the Republicans. The vote in Congress was across party lines. I'm angry that our President fired up Air Force One and flew it across the county to sign the bill. I'm angry that most of the sheep like populous of the US doesn't see that this is one more example how the Religious Right has infiltrated the Federal Government to the detriment of individual rights. If Congress wants a better cause to take up that's effective us all how about the illegal aliens. Just this week there was a report that there are 11 Million currently in the US. Here's just one story link http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/11196889.htm . This situation not only effects National Security, but illegals are straining our social resources to the breaking point. Here in California our schools and hospitals are suffering, and many hospitals have closed because the Federal Government doesn't think this is a priority worth addressing. No, instead Terri Schiavo generates a weekend special session of Congress. It was bad enough that the Religious Right wants to take control of what you can see on TV, hear on radio, or read. It is bad enough that they want to control what you do in your bedroom. Now they also want to control your death, or the death of your loved one. Would any of you want to live as this poor woman is displayed? She has existed like this for the last 15 years. Now she is a political football. People sit and speak for her who don't know her, have never seen her in person. They won't allow her the same compassion we give our dogs and cats when their quality of life dictates termination of a painful existence. We should not be talking about this. The government should not have made the private pain of this woman and her husband a national point of debate. Creeping "Big Brother-ism" is now at a walking pace, getting ready to jog. The only good to come of this is if people finally wake up. Hopefully people will put themselves in the place of Terri Schiavo or her husband and get angry that their difficult personal choices can be discounted so easily by the Federal Government. When are we going to be "Mad as Hell - and NOT TAKE IT ANYMORE!!" Regarding the husband's perspective and why he doesn't just let the parents take over the care. It maybe a case that he's telling the truth. Maybe he did love her and still loves her enough to not want to see her live in this manner. Maybe he is fighting for her. Look at the normal perception a person has in the two respective positions. A husband wants a partner. Within a spousal relationship there is communication, intimacy, and emotional interface. A parent fundamentally is much more basic. A parent, especially a loving parent as hers obviously are, always sees a child as a baby to protect. They see communication and thought even when none is there. In their mind she is still the day old baby, whose gas is perceived as a smile. They have no problem keeping her that way. Most of us with children have that same vision in our minds eye. That's what makes her husbands fight so difficult. Ultimately each side is seeing the person they love. Speculation regarding a criminal cause for her condition is just rhetoric. After 15 years and all the movements and manipulations that are applied to any person in a comatose state, there is no chance that any forensic evidence would still be there. Even Grissom and his team from Vegas CSI couldn't tie this back to something her husband may have done 15 years ago. PS - I hear you are thinking of coming to Vegas - Hope you do!

Atavist -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/29/2005 6:33:37 PM)
Merc, I re-read your post and after a second look, even though I think we'd probably disagree on some of the larger issues (the role of gov't for example) I can't disagree with you on this one. I was simply responding to your previous post, which was less than serious. As usual, what you wrote was well thought out, even if its wrong alot of the time (g). I'm yanking your chain. Good post. I'm sure I'll get to Vegas, I'm just not sure when yet.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/29/2005 7:19:08 PM)
quote: even if its wrong alot of the time (g). Atavist, Unlike a stopped clock exactly right twice a day, I'd rather keep running and be consistently wrong, even if only by a little bit. [;)] I'd probably agree with you about more government programs for people, but I think 40% is enough, especially considering that you still have to pay sales tax, and gas tax, and RE tax out of the 60% you get to keep. Looking forward to meeting you in Vegas!

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/29/2005 7:50:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stormsfate Surely you aren't saying that only those who are healthy and require no assistance should continue to live? Wow...I think there are plenty of physically challenged people who would disagree with you. f (who is not even a right to live or pro life advocate) Of course I'm not saying only healthy people should continue to live, but I am saying that she wasn't born this way, she had a horrible event that essentially killed her, and without serious interference from medical advances she wouldn't be still alive. I do believe that hard choices have to be made sometimes when people become ill; I don't think that advances were made to prolong life indefinitely and keep brain damaged people alive as long as possible. She's not physically challenged; she's mentally challenged, she's unable to say she wants to live this way, and the man who has the legal right to say for her has, and I am okay with that at this point. M

pantera -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/30/2005 5:54:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Atavist Lets follow your logic a bit. You say you have kids. Have more than one? Which one do you love most? Maybe you get the point. How do you quantify, calibrate, weigh love? The law has made the point moot as I understand it. Her husband, by law has the responsibility to make decisions in her interests. Its curious to me that Bush, Randall Terry et. al. feign so much concern about life, and yet Texas remains the execution capital of the western world. Hypocricy? You betcha. There wasn't a "logic" to follow, I just made a statement: he should leave her alone, unless he is paying for her treatment. If so, he should say to her parents: here she is- find a way to pay. I have only one kid.... I never mentioned politics ... you are using this case to spill some anti-right sentiment there... and I'm sure you'll be one of the first to say that the right is using this case to push their own agenda. I am not religious, and I don't think abortion should be illegal (I don't think is right to kill "almost babies" as a form of contraception) now that you understand that, keep reading: let's talk about death row and hypocricy, since you mentioned both... explain to me this obsession of the left with giving murderers the right to breathe, but at the same time denying that right to a fetus? it is not his/ her fault that the ¿mother? was stupid enough to not use protection (hey, maybe she should not reproduce after all!). Getting pregnant doesn't just happen to you...it is easy to avoid: JUST DON'T HAVE SEX. and I am all for death penalty, (even though I think it is too benign as it is...make the bastard suffer!!!) ...I just wish it would get to the confirmed guilty murderers a little faster.

sweetpleaser -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/30/2005 6:06:54 AM)
Thorns: What a great post! You always come right to the point. I enjoy reading anything you write! Merc: I enjoy your very thought out posts as well. I don't always agree but you really put heart in your opinions. I even like it when you get evil.[;)]

ruffnecksbabygir -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/30/2005 7:35:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GordonFreeman quote: why does the left have to automatically link this case with abortion and the religious right? It really seems, in my opinion, that many just want her to die to spite the "religious right", now, to me, Thats repugnant! That is grade 'A' Republican spin. Karl Rove himself could not have said it better! Remember this is just the first salvo in the "Culture of Life" battle that is to define the 2006 elections. Both sides (especially the right) are guilty of reducing this woman's last moment to a talking point. I think of it more as depressing than repugnant. depressing and repugnant, i'll agree....call it a republican spin or simply call it the truth, without all the political correctness crap in the way. As far as the "religious right", i don't consider myself very religious, i believe in God, but don't particularly care for religion one way or the other....i lean much more towards the right than the left, that's for damn sure...... but i still don't see why this case has become about the right and left. I also don't see the link between Shiavo and abortion...i've heard so many who are for terri dying say that the religious right and their looney ideals about pro life and abortion, and how this all connects in some sort of "conspiracy" lol....come on now...that's just ridiculous, many are still upset that they didn't get their way last Nov and will cling on to any issue that will some how go against whatever it is the right defends. i agree this case has become a circus, unfortunately..... but i for one, do not see it through republican eyes, or through democrats eyes, i see it through a mothers eyes and all i think about is her family and the pain they must feel to watch as their daughter slowly dehydrates and starves to death. i won't debate wether michael shiavo loved her more than her parents did, or whatever, that's not for me to say, i don't know any of them personally. Like i posted before i only pray she passes as peacefully as possible for her sake and her family.

Destinysskeins -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/30/2005 8:25:28 AM)
Greetings, Let it be known that while i skimmed through the previous 5 pages of posts, i did not come even close to absorbing everything contained within them. If this post rehashes anyone else's sentiments then please forgive me. Ok, here's my take on it. Bush decided that in order to advance his Party's chances of winning the next election, he would borrow a Democratic agenda that the American public is fond of - 'fixing social security'. Only problem is that he's been too busy cultivating foreign oil fields and living it up on his ranch in TX to actually put together a feasible plan for doing so. So, along comes the Terry Shiavo and her parents - suddenly everyone's so damned busy talking and debating this that (keep your fingers crossed, Bush) the American public forgets to think about the proposed fix. Not to mention the talk about everything from the congressional hearings on steriod use by baseball players to end-of-life discussions that have been postulated to prevent any further movement on the social security issues. What do i find the most satisfying about all of this? That because Bush decided to use a poor family's plight to further his motives now a good portion of his devoted followers (religious right, right to lifers, etc) are ready to tear him (and his brother) a new one. Would the American public think that G.W. or Jed could change the course of this woman's future if they themselves had not thrown themselves into the mix? Perhaps some, but not nearly so many as do now. So, in short, kudos on the smooth move, George.....now ya just gotta figure out how to smooth all the ruffled feathers of your beloved conservatives!

GordonFreeman -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/30/2005 9:49:45 AM)
rnbg, Thanks for the thoughtful reply - I think we agree on the outline if not the outcome. For anyone interested in further reading here is a link to a very good essay - particularly germane for this forum is the author's assertion that the Christian Right to Life movement is founded on the idea that the meaning of life is contained in suffering (attention sadists and masochists) Life Everlasting warning: article is long

sub4hire -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/30/2005 4:18:40 PM)
Just responding to the very first thread. Sweet, this is not directed specifically at you. Should they live or die? $1.27 million tab for comatose inmates California wrestling with issues akin to Schiavo caseThe Associated Press Updated: 2:17 p.m. ET March 29, 2005SACRAMENTO - The California Department of spent $1.27 million in just six months on medical care for six comatose inmates last year — and that’s not counting more than $1,000 per day for each guard it cost for security. The entire article can be found at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7327882/

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/30/2005 6:51:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sub4hire Just responding to the very first thread. Sweet, this is not directed specifically at you. Should they live or die? $1.27 million tab for comatose inmates California wrestling with issues akin to Schiavo caseThe Associated Press http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7327882/ . I think we all know my answer on this one... Even easier than Schiavo. M

Atavist -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/30/2005 9:05:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pantera There wasn't a "logic" to follow, I just made a statement Pardon me, I thought you were implying that parents love their children more than any spouse possibly could. My mistake. quote: let's talk about death row and hypocricy, since you mentioned both... explain to me this obsession of the left with giving murderers the right to breathe, but at the same time denying that right to a fetus? Your making gross oversimplifications. There is no "obsession" and I suspect that most people who identify as liberal probably support the death penalty in some circumstances. Secondly, I don't know of anyone who supports denying any fetus's the right to life. Many people on the left (and right) simply believe in personal freedom of choice. You said yourself you don't think abortion should be illegal. quote: I am all for death penalty, (even though I think it is too benign as it is...make the bastard suffer!!!) Interesting. But a topic for another thread.

FelinePersuasion -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/31/2005 2:00:56 AM)
This whole thing has been going on for at least two years, I really do not think if she has not starved to death in the two years they say she will, then it's not likely to happen, They have obviously been doing something, she's still alive.

ProtagonistLily -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/31/2005 4:37:03 AM)
quote: I never mentioned politics ... you are using this case to spill some anti-right sentiment there... and I'm sure you'll be one of the first to say that the right is using this case to push their own agenda. You never mentioned politics in the same way I am not currently breathing air. quote: I am not religious, and I don't think abortion should be illegal (I don't think is right to kill "almost babies" as a form of contraception) now that you understand that, keep reading: Well, when you can get an 'almost baby' to be viable outside the womb, let us all know please. I'm sure it will be a huge breakthrough for women's rights. quote: let's talk about death row and hypocricy, since you mentioned both... explain to me this obsession of the left with giving murderers the right to breathe, but at the same time denying that right to a fetus? it is not his/ her fault that the ¿mother? was stupid enough to not use protection (hey, maybe she should not reproduce after all!). Yes, let's talk about death row and hypocracy. I would like you to site, statisically, this obsession you discuss. I don't know what country YOU are living in right now, but in the country I live in, we have checks and balances. A person is innocent until proven guilty by a jury of their peers. So, are you suggesting that juries are somehow conspiring lefty nutters who's mission is to let Murders free? Really, this rant seems to roll off your tongue fairly easily, but it's full of more holes than swiss cheese. But then again, the 'right wing' often makes statements just like this with absolutely no data to back it up. And while we are sitting back playing armchair God here, deciding who should reproduce and who shouldn't, I find it fairly hypocritical of you to take this 'Holier than Thou' stance that you do in the name of a clear and present political agenda that you never mentioned. quote: Getting pregnant doesn't just happen to you...it is easy to avoid: JUST DON'T HAVE SEX. Oh please...this is about the emptiest argument you've made so far. Right now, I'm thinking about two people in particular that I wish never had sex.... quote: and I am all for death penalty, (even though I think it is too benign as it is...make the bastard suffer!!!) ...I just wish it would get to the confirmed guilty murderers a little faster. Well, if you knew what you were talking about, you'd realize that when it comes to the death penalty, it's mostly the tax payers that suffer. Death row inmates cost 12 times what a regular inmate, who's being detained on a 50 year sentance costs. Again, I live in America, I'm not real sure where you live, and in America, you have the right to appeal. And that appeal process for Death Row inmates has exorbatant costs associated with it. It's easy to rant your Right Wing hypocritical mantra, but it would have been much more intellectually entertaining if you had done a little research and backed your opinions up. Lily

pantera -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/31/2005 5:57:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Destinysskeins Greetings, Let it be known that while i skimmed through the previous 5 pages of posts, i did not come even close to absorbing everything contained within them. If this post rehashes anyone else's sentiments then please forgive me. Ok, here's my take on it. Bush decided that in order to advance his Party's chances of winning the next election, he would borrow a Democratic agenda that the American public is fond of - 'fixing social security'. Only problem is that he's been too busy cultivating foreign oil fields and living it up on his ranch in TX to actually put together a feasible plan for doing so. So, along comes the Terry Shiavo and her parents - suddenly everyone's so damned busy talking and debating this that (keep your fingers crossed, Bush) the American public forgets to think about the proposed fix. Not to mention the talk about everything from the congressional hearings on steriod use by baseball players to end-of-life discussions that have been postulated to prevent any further movement on the social security issues. What do i find the most satisfying about all of this? That because Bush decided to use a poor family's plight to further his motives now a good portion of his devoted followers (religious right, right to lifers, etc) are ready to tear him (and his brother) a new one. Would the American public think that G.W. or Jed could change the course of this woman's future if they themselves had not thrown themselves into the mix? Perhaps some, but not nearly so many as do now. So, in short, kudos on the smooth move, George.....now ya just gotta figure out how to smooth all the ruffled feathers of your beloved conservatives! I thought we were talking about about this woman's tragedy??!!! Oh look!!! it's raining outside!!! Damn Bush and all of his conservative friends! Their fault! lol!!!

pantera -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/31/2005 6:05:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Atavist Pardon me, I thought you were implying that parents love their children more than any spouse possibly could. My mistake. I wasn't implying it, I said it and I believe it, based on the love I feel for my child. Is this true for everybody??? of course not....does anybody remember Susan Smith??? quote: Your making gross oversimplifications. There is no "obsession" and I suspect that most people who identify as liberal probably support the death penalty in some circumstances. Secondly, I don't know of anyone who supports denying any fetus's the right to life. Many people on the left (and right) simply believe in personal freedom of choice. You said yourself you don't think abortion should be illegal. No, I don't think abortion should be ilegal... I want as little a government as we can stand...(I specially want them out of my pocket and out of my bedroom)... but that woman could have made *the choice* of using protection. And then again...some people should not reproduce...

pantera -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/31/2005 6:50:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily You never mentioned politics in the same way I am not currently breathing air. I don't know what you are breathing, but if you read my original post on this topic, I stated that I did not like the fact that the persons who love her most are not the ones with the legal right to decide for her.... that post is in page 3 I believe... no politics there... I'm just puttinng myself in the position of those parents who lost their daughter once, and are clinging to a thread of hope. quote: Well, when you can get an 'almost baby' to be viable outside the womb, let us all know please. I'm sure it will be a huge breakthrough for women's rights. I don't think anybody here will disagree with the fact that pregnancies are almost 100% preventable (I'm not including rape) quote: Yes, let's talk about death row and hypocracy. I would like you to site, statisically, this obsession you discuss. I don't know what country YOU are living in right now, but in the country I live in, we have checks and balances. A person is innocent until proven guilty by a jury of their peers. So, are you suggesting that juries are somehow conspiring lefty nutters who's mission is to let Murders free? Really, this rant seems to roll off your tongue fairly easily, but it's full of more holes than swiss cheese. But then again, the 'right wing' often makes statements just like this with absolutely no data to back it up. We are exposing points of view here. If you want to adopt the position of "I'm left and you are right, therefore you're wrong" then be my guest, but that is not the most effective to debate. Instead, we could try to find where that other person is coming from to get a clear idea of what is being said. You didn't read my original post, if you had you would understand that I am merely speaking as a MOTHER, not some right-wing wacko pushing their agenda. Not only am I not religious, I do not believe in life after death, creation, or any higher being.... quote: And while we are sitting back playing armchair God here, deciding who should reproduce and who shouldn't, I find it fairly hypocritical of you to take this 'Holier than Thou' stance that you do in the name of a clear and present political agenda that you never mentioned. now, doesn't this just seem silly after reading above? "holier than thou" lol!!! quote: Oh please...this is about the emptiest argument you've made so far. Right now, I'm thinking about two people in particular that I wish never had sex.... Sorry, I incorrectly said earlier in this post that everybody believes that pregnancies are preventable... apparently it is an "empty argument"... I was wrong... quote: and I am all for death penalty, (even though I think it is too benign as it is...make the bastard suffer!!!) ...I just wish it would get to the confirmed guilty murderers a little faster. quote: Well, if you knew what you were talking about, you'd realize that when it comes to the death penalty, it's mostly the tax payers that suffer. Death row inmates cost 12 times what a regular inmate, who's being detained on a 50 year sentance costs. Again, I live in America, I'm not real sure where you live, and in America, you have the right to appeal. And that appeal process for Death Row inmates has exorbatant costs associated with it. It's easy to rant your Right Wing hypocritical mantra, but it would have been much more intellectually entertaining if you had done a little research and backed your opinions up. Lily ok, by now I have it very clear that you live in America, good for you! not everybody is that lucky- but I didn't understand this last part. How is "speeding up the process of death row" (what I was talking about) going to "be more costly" ?(what you were talking about) . I think the right to appeal and the innocent until proven guilty are two things that make this country great... and I want to see "your america" PROSPEROUS, STRONG AND FREE, second to none in this planet of ours- I am impressed with your reseach abilities, and I would like to get the source of it, so this ignorant third world mother can learn a little more... since only wanting good people to be happy and bad people to pay for what they did is not enough... and it may be considered "right wing hypocritical mantra"

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