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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 12:28:54 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gent, to answer your question about why a wealthy person should be included in Universal Healthcare too I'd say because they are paying taxes to support the system just like everyone else who pays taxes.



Popeye, I imagine many will agree with you. Ultimately, the question revolves around what people want from a health care system. For me, social welfare is about satisfying need, first and foremost. In Britain, there isn't enough money to go around (assuming we remain a conservtive nation and prefer to direct taxes towards "defence"). So, there has to be an allocation of limited resources and those most in need should be first in line.

I know little of the US, but from the attitudes I've read on this board I'll be amazed if you can raise the taxes, or redirect taxes, to cover a high standard of healthcare, on demand, for the entire nation. Thus, at some point, you will need to make a decision on who gets the limited resources.

In terms of the practicalities of our National Health Service, my experiences have been positive. Strangely, horror stories crop up "we waited 36 years to get seen to", but it's never happened to me or anyone I know. I've had x-rays, physio treatment, neurologist appointments etc for a mild back problem and I've never had to wait longer than 3 weeks (which is impressive considering I don't have a problem that needs immediate treatment).


Gent, it is certainly doable financially if we get rid of  some things like foreign aid, and not have Troops in 125 foreign countries.(Or more!)
That stuff is *enourmously* expensive!
Getting our Troops out of S. Korea and putting them on the Mexican border would alone save tens of billions of dollars that could be used for healthcare.
Then, getting the 12-20 million illegals in this country deported back to their own countries would save probably another $100 B per year. We simply cannot be a dumping ground for the third world anymore.That alone could bankrupt us.
Financially, I don't see a problem at all with having a national healthcare plan if we did those things and started to mind our own business internationally and stopped all this Imperialism that is draining the U.S. financially.
Seems we're always giving our "allies" money but they have yet to give us any money! Then there's all the one-way defense "alliances" we have like with Formosa, we defend them but they don't help us? We need to cut the cord on that stuff.
There is TREMENDOUS waste of money in the U.S. govt!
I don't know about anyone else in here but I was never consulted nor did I vote for my country to be the "world's policeman."
That shit needs to END!
Right now the ONLY foreign countries we should have Troops in is Afganistan and Pakistan. And after they're done killing al qeada get out.
Look at the $400 B that Iraq has cost us, that could go a heck of a long way towards healthcare.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/3/2007 12:32:55 PM >

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 12:29:31 PM   
sleazy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: edgeofreality
Public Universal Healthcare is not a matter of charity of generosity.


Unless everyone never takes out more than they put in there is an element of charity and generosity from those that are paying in more than they are taking back out. Unless of course the country is just going to print money on demand to cover the costs and then worry about the currency issues that would create



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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 3:06:33 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		Anything given without merit/ consideration (trade) is charity. If there is to be "free healthcare" who is going to pay the costs? The governent isn't paying it they broker the deal between all parties back to the taxpayers to pay. and anytime you seperate the payer from the reciever by another degree you are asking for the system to become less consumer directed, and that means less customer service oriented.





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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 3:29:56 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Anything given without merit/ consideration (trade) is charity. If there is to be "free healthcare" who is going to pay the costs? The governent isn't paying it they broker the deal between all parties back to the taxpayers to pay. and anytime you seperate the payer from the reciever by another degree you are asking for the system to become less consumer directed, and that means less customer service oriented.







Archer, it would be the Taxpayers paying for National Healthcare through *their own taxes*.
I'd much rather have my taxes paying for healthcare in this country than to be paying for foreign aid.
If we did away with a lot of things we may not have to raise taxes that much or at all to pay for healthcare as per my prior response.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 7:30:29 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I rather think it's more a matter of not wanting the Government to bully the price down to the point where overall long term profit is impossible. Most arguments about Pharm prices seem to be that that mythical .03 manufacturing cost pill should cost .04 at most retail as opposed to the research cost being figured into the cost as well.

Lets set a overall profit we all here can agree on and see where that takes us? LOL





Archer:
Perhaps you might be interested in  what the relationship is between the cost of research and what the pharmaceutical industry pays for advertising and lobbying.
thompson

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 7:40:49 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Anything given without merit/ consideration (trade) is charity. If there is to be "free healthcare" who is going to pay the costs? The governent isn't paying it they broker the deal between all parties back to the taxpayers to pay. and anytime you seperate the payer from the reciever by another degree you are asking for the system to become less consumer directed, and that means less customer service oriented.







Archer:
Everyone pays for police but not everyone uses the police.
Everyone pays for the fire department but not everyone uses the fire department.
Everyone pays for schools but not everyone has children.
In the preamble to our constitution the founders list the reasons why they commited treason against the legally constituted government.
What exactly do you feel "promote the general welfare"means?
Why do you feel that people form themselves into societies?
Is it so that the rich may exploit the poor?
Is it so that the strong may exploit the weak?
Is it so the clever may exploit the ignorant?
thompson

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Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 11:50:55 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		If we set a figure of what is considered a fair profit then what they spend or do not spend becomes less important. Since the figure sets a relationship based on investment and profit.
So again lets take a wild stab at what is a fair profit.

Three examples of LOCAL government functions by and large.
Police Fire and Education are pretty much local matters so apples and oranges compared to a nationwide healthcare system.

As to the Constitution's General Welfare clause it says Promote the general welfare not provide for it. Removal of obsticles to opportunity is a far cry from giving away someone elses money.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 11:55:19 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I don't see delegating the authority to provide healthcare to The People to the Federal Government to be any huge issue. Pass an Amendment, and it's their Job.

The real issue is, as always, once you delegate something, endless lobbying ensues about How Much, What Type, Who Profits, How Much Profit, etc also become the purview of the Government.

Luckily, Health INSURANCE companies are already regulated at the State level, and those bitches will Obey The People's Regulations, or surrender the benefits of doing business in the State.

So we get the endless arguing and lobbying at the State level, as it should be.


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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 12:34:42 AM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		Fire protection used to be a private business. If you didn't have a plaque on your home the pumps weren't turned on. In fact, if you had a rival company's plaque your local fireman might become your local firebug. A lot of things we take for granted as essential public services (i.e. rights) were once private affairs or didn't exist until nations mandated them.

Universal healthcare is not a buffet, it's insurance. People don't pay in thinking "gee I spent$1,000 in premiums, I should get cancer and collect!". How cynical can one get? Calling it charity is demeaning and inaccurate. As thompsonx said, by that definition all public infrastructure is charity.

And it’s not like there is an instant solution to public health issues or that the problem remains static. It ties in with education and research, prevention, diet etc. etc. The health problems that seem to overwhelm us today can be reduced in the long term. It’s not like we have to pull a fully formed in all its glorious detail solution out of a hat. To demand that level of performance is to ensure failure without even trying. Do we create initiative or leave a legacy of capitulation?

Looking after your citizens is simply good for a country. Better than war, certainly.


Z.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 7:47:46 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		See again it goes from I don't agree with Government provided heathcare, to being accused of wanting to see people dieing off in the streets. From calling charity a very well defned term and something that is good and right to participate in, demeaning making it dirty.
Charity is a good thing, I have given freely and I have once or twice been the benificiary of charitable acts and funding.
To consider charity to be demeaning or a bad thing you have to buy into the individualist attitude at a hook line and sinker level of every man for himself since the only way it can be bad to accept charity is if it means you were not able to do it yourself and that judgement is made by that person in the mirror. Rather than screaming about how individualist thinking is so bad seems some have bought into it when convienient so they can call charity demeaning to accdet but rail against it when someone doesn't want to be forced by government, but rather leave it to their concionce as to what charitable healthcare they are willing to contribute to. (ie aids benifits, breast cancer benifits, free clinics donated to, personal freinds donated to stroke aftercare, etc all things I have donated charitable contributions in form of cash and time)
Confusing the idea of not wanting the government to be the source of healthcare and not wanting to have people contribute to it are entirely different things.
My arguent is not that healcare should not be provided but rather though what mechanism we provide for it.

Case in point locally we have a free clinic that has had the savings to a for profit hospital's ER calculated.
If the administraters were smart they would simply donate a portion of that savings to the clinic enough to keep it going at least. It would be investment in cost savings. But I would not be in favor of mandating throguh government that they do so.
The less involved the government gets the better that clinic will be, unless it is in the form of Grants from the government that all they have to do is qualify and apply for after which the government keeps out of it except to audit the grant.



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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 1:51:45 PM   
Sternhand4


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Status: offline 		I started this thread as another thread had brought the issue up.

I do not support public health care as it is practiced in europe or as in canada.
Both systems have advantages and flaws. But in the end, they would never work here for a lot of reasons.
Americans expect "cadillac" healthcare. Their is no way they would accept waiting lists, or simple denial of services due to being to old to cost justify the expense.
Most americans will never give up the right to choose their doctor.

I do think that there should be a national health insurance program. But it would have to be tiered to work. How will the public take it when some " are more equal than others" even though thats essentially the system in place now?




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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 2:58:01 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4


Americans expect "cadillac" healthcare. Their is no way they would accept waiting lists, or simple denial of services due to being to old to cost justify the expense.
Most americans will never give up the right to choose their doctor.



An awful lot of Americans don't have Model T Ford healthcare and you only have real choice if you are rich. If you are stuck in the middle income pack you get middle income healthcare like everyone else in that bracket. The only difference in America from europe from what I can make out, in Europe the poor are covered. The European rich can have Cadillac healthcare as well but when they are seriously ill, many choose the National Health Service because that is where all the expertise is.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 3:00:41 PM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		Archer, I meant that I felt the use of the word charity to describe universal healthcare was demeaning. I would also suggest it is inappropriate, for reasons I have already mentioned, namely that I feel that governments have a duty to control healthcare costs, access and delivery to a much greater degree. Healthcare is a strategic industry and vital to a nation's well being. Leaving it entirely to the private sector is iresponsible.

Charity is a very different creature from pubilc management of an essential resource. Because the term "free healthcare" keeps being used to describe what is actually managed healthcare, the perception is that advocates of a public system want something for nothing. Sure that would be great but of course there is no free lunch. There is, however, a case for making lunch which is affordable to more than a few wealthy people and even for making sure that the few who do not have the means, do not go hungry.

There is a place for both individualism and for collective action. In human society they suport each other. Culture and knowledge tends to be addvanced by visionary individuals but those individuals stand on the shoulders of the many who came before and those who create and maintain the infrastructure of society. Neither is better and finding the balance is the eternal struggle of all societies.


Z.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 3:32:48 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		Many Americans believe they have cadillac health care, what they actually get is the car room sales man telling them what a cadillac is, providing his selection of car to them and then later sending them a bill, the only choice they have had is the colour. Of course that is only the people that they allow inot the sales room........43 million of them stand out sode and look into the show room. American colleagues spend so much of their time talking about, worrying about or trying to understand their medical insurance it is un real. For some it is excellent, for a large amount of the rest they just hope ....... or pray....... that they don't get to ill. They make decisions about when they should seek a doctor and what tests they really need based upon little to know knowledge other than that their insurance will not cover it all and the doctor may require unnecessary tests and procedures on the off chance he might get sued.  It is truly nuts........  1 trip to the doctor, 10 minutes with him, a few test later and bingo, 3 cksinvioces, one telling me the cost, one tellng me what the insurance picks up and one saying what I should pay, $200 bucks (about £120) while the insurance picks up some more.............did we need the tests - I don't know but I suspect the hospital accountats want everyone to have them.......

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 3:41:21 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

I started this thread as another thread had brought the issue up.

I do not support public health care as it is practiced in europe or as in canada.
Both systems have advantages and flaws. But in the end, they would never work here for a lot of reasons.
Americans expect "cadillac" healthcare. Their is no way they would accept waiting lists, or simple denial of services due to being to old to cost justify the expense.
Most americans will never give up the right to choose their doctor.

I do think that there should be a national health insurance program. But it would have to be tiered to work. How will the public take it when some " are more equal than others" even though thats essentially the system in place now?






As a disabled veteran I use the V.A. Healthcare system and I've had about 15 different doctors over the years so we don't get to "choose" our own doctors either.
What's the big deal?
"Did you graduate from Medical school? " "Yes, Bob's college of medicine."
"O.K. as long as you didn't go to "Yale" you'll do!"
What's the difference anyway, if they graduated from medical school they're all qualified.
I never liked Hillary Clinton but I did agree with her that we should have a national healthcare system in place.
When you think about it it's really rediculous that we don't have one in place.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 4:03:52 PM   
hammernhoney


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Status: offline 		I believe our government could afford a health care program.I can thank GOD afford our blue cross blue shield type of insurance ,There are many out there ,the working poor that can't..Based on need type of program is needed here in the us..A sliding scale where if you are working you can pay a certain based on what you are making..ITS a make sense type of investment,Preventable health care cost a lot less then waiting till a big need is there..OF courses just this ol" master opinion and subject to change...bounty

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 4:13:12 PM   
Sternhand4


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Status: offline 		If you like public housing, your going to love public health care..

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 4:19:43 PM   
hammernhoney


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Status: offline 		There are some without any care that would love to have some public insurance..bounty

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 5:41:17 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		Seems topical, item in USA today about children with no insurance having much higher death rates in the US medical system. At my sons school they were doing a fund raiser for a child with cancer, the funds were to help with normal chemotherapy drugs and to help the parents pay the medical bills. Is this normal in other parts of the US? I'm aware of similar fund raisers in the UK to send sick children overseas but not for treatment that is available in the home country?

www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-03-01-uninsuredkids_N.htm




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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/4/2007 5:44:05 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		That link on uninsured kids

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-03-01-uninsured-kids_x.htm?csp=34

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