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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 10:43:59 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		The doomsayers here keep nickel and diming the matter to death, lining up trees to hide the forest. The OP posed a question on principle, not particulars.

Of course anything as complex as delivering healthcare is going to present a lot of emerging and evolving problems. But what complex business doesn’t? Private or public? It isn’t like solving complex problems is new to us. Sounds like a worthy challenge, not an excuse to throw up our hands in surrender. (Nope – can’t go to the moon. That’s impossible bah blah blah…)

Sure there are horror stories from public healthcare but there are as many from the private system, if not more. I am sorry that some people here have had bad experiences. It happens. Many of us have had fantastic, life saving experiences too. That’s not the point.

For example, some people get screwed by the legal system while some get justice. Each outcome matters to the individual of course but to all of us in general, a system of common law, however problematic, is infinitely preferable to what preceded it. So too with healthcare. I see no benefit in returning to or preserving a system where only the wealthy can afford doctors.

To me the question is - should enlightened, civil societies make the health of their citizens a priority and should they enact legislation, regulation and financial mechanisms to ensure equitable access to basic services? Like education, transportation infrastructure, clean water and strategic industries, healthcare is essential to a vigorous nation. It’s not privilege and it’s not a right, it’s just good management. If you must be callous about it, forget the warm fuzzies; allowing your citizens to be uneducated, malnourished and sickly is not a rational option. Why would an enlightened society allow it?

The question isn’t “how to do it” or “is it possible”, the question is should we have universal healthcare? For me the answer is, we really can’t afford NOT to.


Z.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 10:55:11 PM   
justplainjava


Posts: 173
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline 		knowing that i am sitting here right now with a blood pressure of 180/108 and this is no lie because of where i am stuck at right now, i can not get medical care, idaho unlike calif has no place like the Los Angeles free clinic and my ex husband knows this and because he is refusing to send funding or do others that are needed for me to get the medical care i need i am being deny, and i am a natural born citz. in the Untied states but because of no money or insurance i can not get the medications that are important to me one thanks to the state of the lost ( I dont know) and because of ex husband

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 11:08:54 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Untamed, I think we'll agree on a principle that everyone is entitled to opportunity in terms of health, education, housing etc. I mean, surely a human colony can provide for this. But, why should a bloke who's earning a fortune on the back of society also get his healthcare free on the back of society? This is my argument that those in need should be served first. If the system can bare the weight, then tackle the rest, but it isn't going to happen because of expenditure on "defence" etc. If it was left to me, I'd forget defence, take our chances and spend tax payers money on housing, education etc, but it's wildly unrealistic.


Gent, to answer your question about why a wealthy person should be included in Universal Healthcare too I'd say because they are paying taxes to support the system just like everyone else who pays taxes.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 11:17:47 PM   
justplainjava


Posts: 173
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline 		speaking of health care would some one like my back right now, i have no one to pop for me or doing any cupping and all the stress is sitting in the middle no one to even flog, and other to aid the tension

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 11:28:21 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? By right, I mean as a citizen, born or naturalized, are we entitled to a certain level of medical care. By privilege I mean, are you entitled to all the healthcare you can afford?

For a long time this issue has needed national debate. Here in the US we do not have a socialized medical system covering the entire US. There is s patchwork system from Medicare/ Medicaid and various state programs.

But none of these address the underlying question of right or privilege.


Here's my sum of an answer to your question.

You reap what you sew. You should get what you work for and earn. Now and then everyone is down on there luck and can't always be prepared but it's no excuse to bitch about not getting a free handout. No one should be required to pay for anothers short comings. Charity is a gift and not an expectation. After all, what goes around comes around. What was your last effort of generosity?  

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 11:36:47 PM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		So many friggin' Scrooges in here and it isn't even Christmas.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/2/2007 11:52:55 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The NHS service in the UK is a wonderful civilised concept but it has clashed head on with middle and upper middle class vested interest and the feckless irresponsiblity of many in the working classes.

Thus quite literally millons of pounds are wasted on middle class scrounging and more millions wasted on working class scrounging.
Yes the same thing from both ends of the social spectrum, The Doctor wants but does not need ; gets, but frequently does not use the latest whizz bang diagnostic equipment.
Many patients want sick notes , treatment for "nerves, IVF treatment, ante natal treatment every 5 mines, free condoms, abortions every couple of years...etc etc etc.

Lets not forget the bean counters, the zillions of paper shifters the ridiculous price mark ups applied by the drug companies.

So what we have is the usual SNAFU..


Seeks, free condoms? I haven't gotten free condoms since I was in the military!
Free Viagra too?

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 1:08:27 AM   
sleazy


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From: UK
Status: offline 		Only free viagra if you qualify income wise, otherwise it would be £6.65 per prescription (not dose or tablet, but per scrip)

As for free condoms, sure just go to your local family planning centre and grab some, they may even offer free pregnancy and STD tests while you are there.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 1:11:05 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Why not a combination of both?  As a citizen you're entitled to a certain level of healthcare, and if you're willing to pay for more, knock yourself out.

Of course people with different ideological backgrounds are going to disagree over the details of what I just called "a certain level of healthcare."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? By right, I mean as a citizen, born or naturalized, are we entitled to a certain level of medical care. By privilege I mean, are you entitled to all the healthcare you can afford?

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 1:33:31 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gent, to answer your question about why a wealthy person should be included in Universal Healthcare too I'd say because they are paying taxes to support the system just like everyone else who pays taxes.



Popeye, I imagine many will agree with you. Ultimately, the question revolves around what people want from a health care system. For me, social welfare is about satisfying need, first and foremost. In Britain, there isn't enough money to go around (assuming we remain a conservtive nation and prefer to direct taxes towards "defence"). So, there has to be an allocation of limited resources and those most in need should be first in line.

I know little of the US, but from the attitudes I've read on this board I'll be amazed if you can raise the taxes, or redirect taxes, to cover a high standard of healthcare, on demand, for the entire nation. Thus, at some point, you will need to make a decision on who gets the limited resources.

In terms of the practicalities of our National Health Service, my experiences have been positive. Strangely, horror stories crop up "we waited 36 years to get seen to", but it's never happened to me or anyone I know. I've had x-rays, physio treatment, neurologist appointments etc for a mild back problem and I've never had to wait longer than 3 weeks (which is impressive considering I don't have a problem that needs immediate treatment).

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 2:11:37 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

To me the question is - should enlightened, civil societies make the health of their citizens a priority and should they enact legislation, regulation and financial mechanisms to ensure equitable access to basic services? Like education, transportation infrastructure, clean water and strategic industries, healthcare is essential to a vigorous nation. It’s not privilege and it’s not a right, it’s just good management. If you must be callous about it, forget the warm fuzzies; allowing your citizens to be uneducated, malnourished and sickly is not a rational option. Why would an enlightened society allow it?



Agreed. Cutting off a section of society will lead to:

1) A waste of labour which, under the right management, can be used to cement enterprise and further economic growth.
2) A wealth gap fostering high levels of crime and anti-social behaviour.

It's a very short-sighted approach to believe we all "get what we deserve". A bloke can be the most hard working, responsible person on the planet, but at some point he has to go to work and will want a beer down the pub with his mates - the wife and kids will be left to the mercy of the street/society in which he lives. Unless the bloke is prepared to build a fence 'round his house and install a few guns, society will impact on his life and thus society needs managing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

The question isn’t “how to do it” or “is it possible”, the question is should we have universal healthcare? For me the answer is, we really can’t afford NOT to.

Z.


A discussion on the principles will always lead to a discussion around the practicalities, but I take your point the two can be discussed in stages - sort out the principle, then move onto the practicalities.

Staying with the principle, I agree with you for the reasons mentioned in my first paragraph in this post.

There is a wider question however and that is does the I'm alright Jack approach give us everything we need in life? This is really at the root of social welfare discussions. The logic behind my desire to pay tax is to use the money to manage the outside world - which is as an investment rather than a drain on my personal wealth. Humans thrive on friendship, loyalty, love, respect and it aint' going to happen in a society wrapped up in an every man for himself approach.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 2:23:03 AM   
edgeofreality


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Joined: 8/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet


Here's my sum of an answer to your question.

You reap what you sew. You should get what you work for and earn. Now and then everyone is down on there luck and can't always be prepared but it's no excuse to bitch about not getting a free handout. No one should be required to pay for anothers short comings. Charity is a gift and not an expectation. After all, what goes around comes around. What was your last effort of generosity?  


Public Universal Healthcare is not a matter of charity of generosity. Although we do, and should, live in a system where merit and achievement is rewarded and you "get what you work for and earn," no person should be put in the situation of choosing between eating and buying their medicine, no one should have to deal with the stress of "what happens if I get hurt or sick and can't afford proper care." These things should be considered basic, inalienable rights for all people and it would be better for everyone in the long run, rich and poor, if that were the case.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 2:49:54 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Exactly NG. As a species we not only survived where hairless, fangless, clawless primates should not be able to, we thrived. And it wasn't because we made tools or had fire, it was because we shared the risks and the rewards, the knowledge and the motivation. Societies are not random collectons of individuals, they are things unto themselves and the individuals within them would be ghosts of their present selves without the support of their fellows.

We will never make the next leap forward as long as we cling to that "I'm alright Jack" attitude. Wasn't it that attitude which guided the perpetrators of the Enron crimes, for example? And how many hardworking, trusting, loyal and decent folks were fleeced and how many of them would be greatful and deserving of a little compassion? Disaster can be anyone's lot, including "Jack's".


Z.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 4:03:15 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

And it wasn't because we made tools or had fire, it was because we shared the risks and the rewards, the knowledge and the motivation. Societies are not random collectons of individuals, they are things unto themselves and the individuals within them would be ghosts of their present selves without the support of their fellows.



The above makes great reading Zensee and it's a shame it could well be lost within a long thread. It deserves a thread of its own. If people reached beyond the politics and spin associated with taxation and discussed the basic tenets of human existence, then the waverers would sway towards creating opportunity. I particularly liked your point that human growth is the result of knowledge sharing and knowledge sharing requires a healthy society.


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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 6:34:50 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
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Status: offline 		What happened to us being one nation? It's a symbiotic relationship ... the wealthy pay for most things, and mostly the poor get to fight and die in our wars.
 
The idea that the private sector is going to care for those down on their luck, is just wishful thinking. Nobody cares, and nobody will help you, unless they can exploit you.
 
The government should manage healthcare, such that everyone gets it.
The government should provide a place where runaway children can go and get help, no questions asked.
 
or ... Welcome to the Jungle

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 6:44:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

What happened to us being one nation? It's a symbiotic relationship ...


I think this is why the French are far more patriotic than the British and it wouldn't surprise me if they were more patriotic than Americans, the citizen and the state are one and the same, each works for the good of the other. As to whether it works out that way is another thing, it is after all just a theory. If your British and from the wrong strata in society, you can go and fuck yourself. Maybe it has changed somewhat but that's what it was like when I was a youth.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 6:56:42 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: untamedshysub

healthcare should be a right not a privelege. Here in the states a 12 yr old boy died recently because he had a tooth that had an infection and it spread to his brain . His mom could not afford to take him to the dentist , so by the time it was all said and done medicad paid over 250k to the hospital and he died because it was too late by the time he got the simple care he needed.


I think calling it either a right or a privilege misses the mark.  Most people dont want bad diseases and injured people bleeding on the sidewalk, so systems are set up to take care of them.  I have stated before that in most civilized societies, a person gets sick or injurered, gets hauled off to the hospital, and gets fixed.  This is not a universal, but it tends to be fairly common over society.  The quality of health care that person receives varies.

The person may have no money, but they will still get some form of medical care.  This is true in the United States, Britain, Canada, most of Europe, etc.

Somebody pays for that medical care.  In the United States I suspect the main objection to universal health care are Big Medical and Big Pharma who dont want the US Government (the biggest supplier of aid to people who lack insurance) being able to freely negotiate how much they are willing to pay for services.

Right now, the US Government lacks that ability, so they are forced to pony up whatever the medical groups charge.

To people who are opposed to universal health care parrotting objections to the cost, I am always astonished that these people are so fiscally ignorant that they want to keep paying $4 for an aspirin because they fear the government will telling the medical industry that they will pay $1 for an aspirin like all the other companies that contract to provide Medicaid services.  We ALREADY pay for universal health care.  We simply pay an inflated cost for it.

United we bargain, divided we beg.

Sinergy

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 7:12:29 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

the wealthy pay for most things


Who do you suppose provides the backbone of light and heavy industry, paying with their labour contribution towards a prosperous economy and society?

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The idea that the private sector is going to care for those down on their luck, is just wishful thinking. 



Who do you suppose pays a tax contribution aimed at furthering economic growth and a prosperous, healthy society?



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 9:40:07 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I rather think it's more a matter of not wanting the Government to bully the price down to the point where overall long term profit is impossible. Most arguments about Pharm prices seem to be that that mythical .03 manufacturing cost pill should cost .04 at most retail as opposed to the research cost being figured into the cost as well.

Lets set a overall profit we all here can agree on and see where that takes us? LOL




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RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? - 3/3/2007 12:19:09 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Popeye, I imagine many will agree with you. Ultimately, the question revolves around what people want from a health care system. For me, social welfare is about satisfying need, first and foremost. In Britain, there isn't enough money to go around (assuming we remain a conservtive nation and prefer to direct taxes towards "defence"). So, there has to be an allocation of limited resources and those most in need should be first in line.

The british defence budget is less than 1/3rd of the healthcare portion of the welfare state alone. As a result of that people serving the nation are sent out with inadequate protection or even worse none at all, lets not forget simple things like boots, cellular phones and such are being bought out of their own pockets. So the amount of cash directed at defence is not really that great.
quote:


I know little of the US, but from the attitudes I've read on this board I'll be amazed if you can raise the taxes, or redirect taxes, to cover a high standard of healthcare, on demand, for the entire nation. Thus, at some point, you will need to make a decision on who gets the limited resources.

Any democratic government that raises taxes no matter the reason alienates voters that may not get a return on it themselves. Ask any person who pays taxes how they feel about welfare payments that they dont recieve, and then about healthcare that they do. In most instances the former will be resented and the latter not so. Its reasonable therefore to assume that any healthcare should be available for all to minimise resentful feelings from the taxpayers/voters
quote:


In terms of the practicalities of our National Health Service, my experiences have been positive. Strangely, horror stories crop up "we waited 36 years to get seen to", but it's never happened to me or anyone I know. I've had x-rays, physio treatment, neurologist appointments etc for a mild back problem and I've never had to wait longer than 3 weeks (which is impressive considering I don't have a problem that needs immediate treatment).

There are positive stories about the NHS, bad happenings are to be expected with any organisation, the problem as I see it is that many of the failings of the NHS are as a direct result of interference by people who have no real understanding of the issues down on the wards or out in the ambulances. Worse these problems are happening in areas where just about anyone can see that there is the potential for serious consequences, or are based on performance indicators that have no real world relevance.

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

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