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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 7:45:46 PM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		Padriag, your posts through out this thread have been the best I have seen in far to long. Thank you for taking the time and effort to put these things into perspective for so many.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I could quote Winston Churchill or Dale Carnegie or others, but somehow that seems not enough.  How does one remove anothers fear when we have no special powers to do so.  Again it would seem, only time and experience can do this for you.  All I can offer is a meager encouragement and a reminder that your yesterdays are not your tomorrows and in that perhaps you will find hope sufficient to the task.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 7:50:52 PM   
afeathr


Posts: 248
Joined: 6/1/2006
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I can guarantee that Sir's answer would be to be loved rather than feared.  I love him much more than I have ever feared him -- in fact, I have never feared him, and I love him more than words can possibly say -- and I am sure that he likes it that way.

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afeathr

-Going where the wind blows me...

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 8:14:56 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		juliaoceania: In relation to what cloudboy said: IMO, it is the "spirit of cooperation" with which the D/s relationship is (hopefully) founded, and upon which it is based, that is the difference -even if fear is included as a "motivator" by a Dominant in a D/s relationship. And, as Padriag pointed out, not all (maybe even not many) use it in a tyrannical way. 

*If somone agrees to a D/s or M/s relationship w/ a Sadist (or any other Dominant for that matter), knowing full well that that Dominant's "philosophy" is, re: How they operate in a bdsm relationship includes the application of occasional (or even frequent) use of fear as a motivator", then they've agreed they will "cooperate," vs. "competing" w/them (and their role as a Dominant) - and by "competing" I mean by doing things like threatening to leave the Dominant, vs. submitting to do what they want.

*Hopefully, the two would discuss the Dominant's "philosophy" re: Using fear as a motivator before they entered into a committed relationship via really getting to know eachother, and asking eachother lots of questions, (how long has your average bdsm relationship been? What sorts of bdsm activities do you like, and how to you go about doing them? etc., and maybe filling out bdsm experience activity lists available on many websites, etc.

*I already discussed (many posts ago, in this thread) how I'd view a Dominant using fear as a motivator, in terms of threatening to kick a submissive to the curb - if he knows this plays on her/his abandonment fears, since there are many other ways to discipline (or punish) a submissive, and how a submissive shouldn't use that as an excuse to not comply, nor should a Dominant unwisely use the power to make releasing her a reality (if he wants a relationship to remain intact) .  

Can you give any other specific examples of Dominant's mis-using fear as a "motivator?" Fear of dis-pleasing a Dominant is a too general one (IMO, no submissive really wants to displease a Doinant, not if they have good intentions, anyway).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/4/2007 9:12:06 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 8:24:12 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

If I find that reality  "too fearful" to me, I can leave. It's nice if his wishes, schedule, timing, mesh with mine, but not imperative. Otherwise, we're in a "vanilla" realtionship. I don't want a "vanilla" relationship.



Love the post, SusanofO, but I did have a few comments.

From a limbic system perspective, the body doesnt really know the difference between a real fight or dangerous situation and one that is contrived.   A Dominant who creates a fear response in you is causing an adrenalin surge.   In a similar vein, there is 0 (zero) difference between fear and excitement.  What is different is the person's interpretation of the stimuli.

A person who fights and doesnt want the stimuli might end up with PTSD.  A person who craves it and enjoys it becomes something else.

Perhaps I am jaded.  I work in an industry that deals extensively with adrenalin response.  Sure, adrenalin shuts off higher function in a person's brain.  Sure, it can freeze or make her flee.  But at the end of the day, do I really feel I have dominated somebody (using fear) in a way that shuts off the cognitive functions in her brain?  It is fun to use some fear to get her going in a scene, but I am really not interested in a 24x7 fear scene.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

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(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 8:34:14 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Susan,


I am packing to go to the Harbor tonight . I will try to answer your posts before I leave tomorrow morning, I did not expect to be leaving so I am rather rushed with my packing. I can only reiterate what I said in my opening post, the quote ran through my mind, I in no way shape or form thought Machevelli was writing about BDSM.  I do not know how many ways I can state it. I only thought of the words, not HIS intent in writing them.

I will try to write more before I leave

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 8:38:40 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		juliaoceania: No - go pack! You have lots to do, sounds like. I know you were just talking about power (I do). I think it's a great thread, and am sure others will comment. Have fun! Have a great time!


Sinergy: Thanks for the good information (and the compliment). Yes, people are all different in response to stimuli - excellent point - probably one that can't be emphasized enough, IMO

Very important, IMO, for a Dominant to know what would cause someone's particular submissive fear vs. excitement, vs, a "yawn" response, etc.

I was talking about "my reality". I might leave, I might stay (I dunno, it would depend), if someone used occasional fear as a motivator. Truth be told, I left a relationship last Fall, when my Dominant non-consensually beat me to a pulp. It was completely out of character for him, it took me completely by surprise, and I prosecuted him, and got a restraining order. Non-consensual almost-broken ribs, and being pushed backward down a flight of stairs, isn't "my thing" (nor did I ever agree to anything remotely akin to that).

The whole episode really scared me (which of course, isn't the same thing as consensually agreeing to let someone use "fear" as a kink, and knowing full well they include it as part of their basic "repertoire" in relating to a submissive). 


I was saying it is within someone's rights as a Dominant, if a person knows upfront what their "philosophy" is. I can see how a Dominant might use fear to a constructive end; and I do think there is a difference between someone who would do that (occasionally, or maybe even frequently if they are a Sadist, perhaps) and a complete tyrant.

Most people I've talked to use it primarily in bdsm activity, not to keep a submissive from leaving (as in saying things like: "I'll kill you puppy dog if you don't do X". I did already state I wasn't a fan of "mindfucks" as a kink activity, but - a "mindfuck" isn't the only means of a Dominant perhaps using fear as a motivator, either (some folks love mindfucks. I don't. I think they can undermine trust, and would do that for me, probably. In fact, they are a "hard limit" - for me.

I mean, IMO someone has to know their own submissive - the presumption is that both want the relationship to remain intact, right? That is what I mean by cooperating (which doesn't mean, btw, that he still cannot say "I insist you at least try X, or leave" (but then the relationship would be over, maybe - yeah).

Presumably, both know that  is a distinct possibility (and eachother).

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/4/2007 9:29:52 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 9:37:44 PM   
juliaoceania


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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Can you give any other specific examples of Dominant's mis-using fear as a "motivator?"

I can think of many ways a dominant could use fear as a motivator. Misuse is a rather judgmental term and not what I seek to do in this thread.

I have heard of submissives that feared pain having it used against them as punishment for not accomplishing a task. In my opinion if the punishment is something the submissive is fearful of, and the dominant uses the threat of punishment to keep her in line, well I am thinking that a dominant has just used fear as a motivator.

It has already been established that if a dominant wants to keep a submissive he should perhaps not use fear as a motivator. Many relationships in WIITWD do not last long.. perhaps this is one reason why? I do not know, but it would not surprise me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 9:58:10 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		juliaoceania: Well, you're not a pain fan. I actually thought what had already been established was that some Dominants would not choose fear as a motivator, and some think its wise application might prove constructive in some instances.

I can see your point (I can. I've seen that happen too), but - what do you mean by "afraid of" and she "fears it?" Has she made it a "hard limit"? 

Do they want to enjoy eachother as partners? What is the intent on the part of the Dominant? (intent means everything - to me, anyway). Plus, I really do think that every relationship is different. Was she expecting a punishment to be a pleasant experience? 
 
And why is it that bdsm activity and supposed "discipline" can be painful - but "punishment" can't be? Because she fears it? Punishment isn't supposed to be pleasant. But yeah, if he's wise, he'll perhaps consider...

There are many ways to dole out punishment, BUT - did she know he was like that, going in? Into painful punishments?

I mean, that's one of the first questions I ask prospective Dominants: "What do you consider so offensive it would merit a punishment?" If it was simply "not complying with my requests", I probed further until I got what resembled more specific an answer (even if it was a general, contextual answer).

If they hadn't thought about it, they needed to do it, IMO, and I asked if they'd get back to me. I also asked what kinds of punishments they'd consider applying (or had, in the past, and for what reasons). If I got a "cagey" answer, and they couldn't give examples, I passed them by. Because it is a serious question. Choose not to answer it, lose me as a prospective submissive. If that means he has to spend 20 extra minutes on the phone w/me and he is not willing to do that, then I say good-bye and good luck in your search.

Did she ask many questions of him? If he "changed overnight" - then maybe she should leave, if she's terribly unhappy (she could - she is within her "rights" as well, if she did).

I see more than a few people  who seem to be hooking up without really getting to know someone, and expecting a LTR to work without really knowing someone much, or their underlying "philosophy pf D/s" - I think that could be a problem, just as easily as "Dominants doling out pain without "just cause" could be a problem.

Maybe it isn't going to make the relationship last long, I agree. Maybe it could last 10 years or more, who knows, really? I think if she hasn't made it a "hard limit", but is something she merely "tolerates", then she could be "gamey" in whining about the fact she's being punished, but then again, maybe he could use another method (taking away a privilege, instead?) Personally, I* think it's up to the individual Dominant. I don't care what other people do. What I do know is the kind of Dominant I'd choose for myself.  

Maybe he really is over-reacting and being tyrannical. But - bottom line - he is within his "rights" as a Dominant. Whether what he is doing will achieve his supposed goal of either changing her behavior, or keep the realtionship intact, or imrpove it, is another question. 

What are his other options? What's his goal? What does she think his odds of achieving it are by doling out this particular punishment?

I know some Dominants don't even bother with punishments - they simply say: "Good-bye, you are released" to the submissive.

Some punish only infrequently, and some who usually dole out praise for a job well-done will simply stop, if they are disappointed in a submissive - and that is enough punishment for "their submissive".

Some Dominants might see lots of behavior as meriting punishment. Some might really need to feel grossly offended to punish someone. I don't want to be in a relationship w/some personality-disordered power-tripper, but I also think I have an obligation to myself, to find out if that is what they acts like a lot of the time, before I make a comittment. And I don't thik a pinfu pinishment s out f line, in sme siruations, if someoe already knows that is a distinct possibility, and it works as far as managing or improving the relationship between the two specific people involved. 

**I guess, my opinion of that would depend on what would be likely to work with a particular submissive, and the type of relationship they have agreed to be in for themselves - everyone is different.

**Did he let her know, in advance, what would happen if she didn't do as asked? Does he need to do that? Becaaue she really (IMO) does need to know and investigate his D/s "philosophy" upfront, before agreeing to committ to a LTR.Was his deadline reasonable for the time allowed to do the task? I'd need to know more.

**There are people who seem to be operating within the realm of bdsm, IMO, who seem to think it will give them a way to have the "relationshop of their dreams"  - because they seem to think the "roles" mean there will be not actual communication or work (or much les of it)  involved in maintaining the relationship - that their relationships will now just all "magically" work out (when they never did before, maybe) simply because the rule now in operation (in D/s) is: "I say X, she does X". 

Well, IMO, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

**But -just because it is a D/s relatonship doesn't mean that people are not still going to be dealing with another flesh-and-blood human being. They are. IMO, they have to get to know that person, their quirks, their likes and dislikes, etc. It's about the person, not about the role.

The D or s role might form the basis of the "cooperative assumption" (or obligation, call it what you will) between the people, but in the end, if people want their realtionships to work, my guess is they will need to want to enjoy eachother (not find excuses to compete with eacother, or set eachother up for failure, or not learn how to solve problems together by not communicating.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/4/2007 10:50:53 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 10:34:21 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

juliaoceania: Well, you're not a pain fan.
 
I am a pain fan. I am a masochist Susan, I am not into punitive relationships. He may discipline me to better me as a person and as his submissive, but it is not punitive, rather it is so I may learn. He is not into punishments and any pain he inflicts is only for pleasure.

There are all sorts of reasons why any relationship fails, I was just pointing out a dominant that ruled by fear may indeed chase a submissive away once she got tired of living that way.

quote:

The D or s role might form the basis of the "cooperative assumption" (or obligation, call it what you will) between the people, but in the end, if people want their realtionships to work, my guess is they will need to want to enjoy eachother (not find excuses to compete with eacther, or set eachother up for failure, or not learn how to solve problems together.



I think that the cooperative assumption is what we think of as a healthy and good BDSM dynamic. Some would say that is not the assumption they operate under at all...knowing how people celebrate their differences in WIITWD I am sure many would not describe their dynamic as operating under cooperative assumption, some say.. "me dom you sub" and work from that position, and if there is a lack of cooperation that means "enforcement" must be used. I have read many many times of dominants who feel they must enforce their will upon a submissive. I am not saying it is wrong.. parents enforce rules too. But enforcement goes beyond cooperative assumptions in my book. If the submissive cooperated all the time enforcement would not be necessary.

Personally I intentionally went for a non punishing dynamic. I mean I really looked for the guy that was not into enforcing, but into inspiring... and we are going on a year under that way of being and I want to submit more, not less, than I did at the beginning. I am more submissive to him now than I was in the beginning. I chose the right style of dominant for me, others feel the need for that relationship style and I am NOT saying it is wrong, or our way is better than theirs.

I never meant to sinuate that any fear in a BDSM relationship is wrong. I was trying to get at what the most important aspect is, reverence, awe and fear.. or love? It has been an interesting thread.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 10:57:33 PM   
SusanofO


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Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

juliaoceania: I thought I already pointed that out. Maybe you didn't see it (it was a long post. Please re-read what I've bolded o this post, below, toward the bottom. It came from the post just immediately above yours)

Some people learn via "punitve" (meaning punishment).

I think some people separate the ideas of "discipline" and "punishment" (I thought that was already established). Some people might well see what your Daddy does to you as "punishment" regardless of the fact it "helps you learn". Everyone is different. So can be their terminology sometimes, and their idea of what is "helpful." You didn't mention just what it is he does, so I don't know (and don't judge anyway). 

Personally, I see the whole "discipline" idea as the primary way people get their excitement via bdsm activity ("Spank me! help me be a better person" etc). Although, of course - it can be serious and not involved in bdsm activity, too (help me manage my time better, and if I don't then discipline me by taking away a privilege, for example).

"Punishment" I see as a way to way to actually punish (as in be puitive toward someone, sometimes for good reasons) for an offense. And I do think sometimes it works. Some people see that as "discipline." So - I think maybe we need to define our terms, and make sure we are talking about the same things. Or maybe we have and now understand what the other means.

Some people (Dominants included of course) don't believe in "punishment". As I said, they either don't do it, or they simply release the submissive if they are too offended by something that's happened. Fine. I say it's hair-splitting if it's negative (vs. positive reinforcement), whether someone calls it "discipline" or "punishment"  - if it works for them.

And I guess I see it as sometimes justified. I think there do need to be consequences for bad behavior. To some people "punishment" might mean taking away a privilege. Some might very well consider that to be "punitive"

If it's over-done then I might call that a Dominant who is "into" (possibly) Micro-managment (followed by a "punishment" if the task isnt done up to par, and since I am not a fan, it might drive me nuts, personally. I just didn't get much detail about circumstances your your example, and intent means a lot (to me) as far as judging circumstances.

In any case, it doesn't seem to work for you, and maybe your Daddy doesn't ever punish you for anything, I don't know. Apparently he dsiciplines you instead, though, just not in a "punitive" manner. Well - if it works for you two, it doesn't matter to me, one way or another. Some people probably, I can imagine, don't do much their Dominants consider "offensive"

But - I don't think you can use your opinion to establish a ground rule for anyone else, and what might work (or not) for anyone else. I can't say I'd know what would work. I can only say what would work for me. Relationships, their circumstances, and the people in them are indeed myriad.

As far as being a masochist, or a Sadist, I think that's beside the point, really.

In your previous example of Dominants being "puntive" you said he punishes her with things because she said she "fears it". What is "it"? Emotional or physical pain? What is "it'? Is "punishment" supposed to be pleasant? Some might consider taking away a privilege (depending on what it is), as something to fear, or as "punisment". Eeven if the didn't and it was physical pain, I'd need to know more to know what you mean by "punitive", and about the circumstances, to venture a guess as to say if it is smething I'd consider offensive, were it to happen to me, personally.

Punitive (to me) means: Punishing. Some folks only see that as physical pain. But as you said yourself (many posts ago) - it can mean anything. Maybe some folks never get punished. That seems fine, if it works. I am not saying works, or doesn't. I am saying just that  - if it works, I think it's fine.    

I think it might not be very effective for me (unless it was emotional, vs. physical pain). But since I've never experienced physical (consensual) "punishment" (vs. discipline), I can't really say. I know I can't way what works for others, either.

**I guess, my opinion of that would depend on what would be likely to work with a particular submissive, and the type of relationship they have agreed to be in for themselves - everyone is different.

**Did he let her know, in advance, what would happen if she didn't do as asked? Does he need to do that? Because she really (IMO) does need to know and investigate his D/s "philosophy" upfront, before agreeing to committ to a LTR.Was his deadline reasonable for the time allowed to do the task? I'd need to know more.

**There are people who seem to be operating within the realm of bdsm, IMO, who seem to think it will give them a way to have the "relationshop of their dreams"  - because they seem to think the "roles" mean there will be not actual communication or work (or much les of it)  involved in maintaining the relationship - that their relationships will now just all "magically" work out (when they never did before, maybe) simply because the rule now in operation (in D/s) is: "I say X, she does X". 

Well, IMO, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

**But -just because it is a D/s relatonship doesn't mean that people are not still going to be dealing with another flesh-and-blood human being. They are. IMO, they have to get to know that person, their quirks, their likes and dislikes, etc. It's about the person, not about the role.

The D or s role might form the basis of the "cooperative assumption" (or obligation, call it what you will) between the people, but in the end, if people want their realtionships to work, my guess is they will need to want to enjoy eachother (not find excuses to compete with eacother, or set eachother up for failure, or not learn how to solve problems together by not communicating.

- Susan


< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/4/2007 11:57:00 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/4/2007 11:58:01 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		juliaoceania: Well I agree with you - that folks should just do what works for them, and I agree it has been a very interesting thread. Punishment might drive off a submissive, or it might work to improve a relationship. 

IMO, maybe if someone cannot inspire enough for them to endure discipline (much loess "punishment") then I'd say it might possibly be a short-lived relationship, for me personally. For others, as you said, it all depends...

I also think, as you said, that there are people who actually have no D/s "philosophy" re: What they'd consider as meriting "discipline or "punishment", beyond saying vague things like: "Not complying with my demands or requests". To me that indicated they'd just make-it-up-as-they-go-along, without much forethought at all, or consideration of possible situations that could arise.

I found that out when I inquired of some, (ceetainly not all) and their so-called "D/s philosphy" was much as you said, juliaoceania.

That's fine, I suppose - but - I wanted to know more, and they couldn't give detail. At all (or very little). Or examples (past, or future "what-if" scenarios of what might merit a "punishment" or "discipline") Which (to me) means, they'd be doing their "Dominating" "on-the-fly", and didn't apparently think it was all that important to consider, (and also they seemed to be suffering from a stupefying lack of imagination, to boot). I don't mean I think they shouldn't seek "feed-back" from their submissives, or communicate, or get to know them.

But, when I heard that kind of answer to a very serious question, I just figured they'd have a difficult time "managing" or "taking responsibility for" a relationship (with me, anyway). So, I agree with what you just said (or what I think you said, anyway).  

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/5/2007 12:57:37 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 4:12:42 AM   
SusanofO


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Joined: 12/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

It is worth considering and exploring that fear comes in degrees. And that there is a difference between a tyrant who keeps power only by fear... and those who use fear of consequence to correct and discipline behavior.  We all fear to stick our hand in the flame, with good reason, we fear the consequence... and this is not a bad thing.  Neither is it arbitrary or random.  A tyrrant, however, is rarely so rational, reasoned... or reliable.



I agree, reliability seems key, as far as using it as a consequence for bad behavior, or in bdsm activity (aka "play") to note that fear come in degrees.

Anyone: I have a completely serious question: What is anyone's opinion here: Is a negative consequence for bad behavior "discipline" or "punishment"? If it's "discipline" then is "punishment" then never meant to correct behavior at all, or does this definition of the difference just vary according to a person's frame of reference?

I get confused here. I get that both punishment and discipline can and might be meant to correct negative behavior. If I am wrong here, I wish someone would tell me. Is the difference between the two that "discipline" can be used in a 1) positive (pleasurable), and a 2) neutral and also non-painful context (getting used to getting up earlier, for example) plus also as a 3) painful (negative) context? Three contexts for "discipline?" But that "punishment", by comparison, is always used as a negative consequence only for bad behavior? Or never at all? Can anyone answer this?

I also see the "play" aspect of "disciplinary" bdsm activity, as in: "I am going to discipline you now, you bad girl..."and someone thinking it's pleasureable, exciting, and fun (or else what are we all even doing here?).

I hear people seemingly distinguish "punishment" and "discipline" at lot  - but I rarely hear how they are further distinguished from eachother - in terms of any application to "correcting" negative behavior.

So, as a result, I think what some people see as "punitive" (taking away a privilege? A severe spanking? Not speaking to someone?) could all be viewed as "corrective". Therefore, it could all "help someone learn", as the OP stated eariler.

I suppose if I wasn't inspired enough by the underlying character of a Dominant, that either discipline or punishment (either or both) would maybe just tick me off, instead of altering (or potentially altering) my behavior. But, I definitely see Padriag's point.

Skinner said (and demonstrated) that creatures will go to great lengths to avoid negative consequences, and be attracted by positive ones. Punishment does pervade nature, IMO - evolutionists theorize that whole species moved great distances geographically, due to "punishing circumstances" like food shortages and bad weather, and evolved varied appendages and maybe even bodily systems based on avoiding negative consequences. If that isn't an potential example of its possible efficacy, I don't know what would be (not everyone believes in evolution, just sayin'). 

My question is - can you corrrect negative behavior, simply by offering positive consequences for bad behavior? Is that "helping someone learn?" In any case, offering fewer positive experiences could be viewed as "helping someone learn". In my view, that is still potentially "punitive." 

Maybe the two people involved use "unpleasureable" only for pleasure (bdsm activity, as in "play" - because they atucally view it ias pleaurable, even if it hurts (spanking) ). Ever. Okay. But how is negative behavior attempted to be corrected, then? 

I'd say - what is their meaning as far as being"discliplined", or imposing a negative consequence (removing a privilege?) to "help someone learn?" if "disciplinary" isn't ever seen as "punitive" (and by "punitive" I mean capable of correctig negative behavior? Even removing a privilege could be seen as "punitive", potentially, if it is something the submissive would miss if removed. If the Dominant person really is "disciplining" someone - how are they doing it? Or are they just not doing it, ever? Maybe their submissive never does anything requiring corrective action form the Dominant? 

If they're not offering any negative consequence for any bad behavior, aren't they in a "vanilla" relationship - or - maybe they only use "discipline" as "play" (in which case, I'd rather hear it referred to as bdsm "actvity", just for clarity).

I think I've definitely seen "discipline" be used as simply someone else's definition of "punishment" - in some cases. Because both are "punitive" - or could be seen that way, under the right circumstances, IMO.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/5/2007 5:12:26 AM >

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 5:30:02 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

I have a completely serious question: What is anyone's opinion here: Is a negative consequence for bad behavior "discipline" or "punishment"? If it's "discipline" then is "punishment" then never meant to correct behavior at all, or does this definition of the difference just vary according to a person's frame of reference?


I will answer even though it is directed at everyone. LuckyAlbatross thinks that punishment and discipline are the same thing. I differ because punishment has a retributive element often, paying for a "crime". I know that some submissives find this cathartic, and I am not putting that down, it works for them. The difference in my mind I will try to shed light on with an example.

Two submissives get snarky on this message board in a way that disappoints their dominant. One submissive gets spanked and feels as though she has atoned for what she has done and the "wrong" is paid for and atoned for. The other submissive is told they may only use the internet for business purposes for a month... meaning no surfing, posting, or chatting so that she can take that opportunity that she would normally spend on the internet and use it to think about why she acted poorly. Some would see little difference in these two ways of interacting with a submissive.... I see a world of difference. One to me is discipline and the other is punishment. It would depend on the dynamic on which was better... for me the month off the internet would be effective, not the spanking. I would think about why it had occurred and think of ways I could better my behavior. It would not be pleasant, but I would go within myself and use the time wisely. I intentionally looked for someone that would use our dynamic tofoster discipline in me.

Looking at the book definitions you will see that punishment has a retribution aspect to it, and discipline does not. You can use punishment to discipline, but not all discipline is punishment.. to me the difference is in how it is handed down.

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 5:50:34 AM   
nissa


Posts: 125
Joined: 2/28/2007
From: Carson City Nevada
Status: offline 		Susan
 
in answer to your question about discipline and punishment
 
many do distinguish between the two, and yet many do not. Much depends on the those within the relationship. You take a masochist; punishment in the way of 'physical pain' most likely will not correct undesirable behavior. Yet, emotional and psychological pain ( knowing that you have displeased him/her, the guilt over behaving badly ) can be a corrective measure when used properly. In my opinion, this is discipline and not punishment.
 
On the other hand, you take someone who does not enjoy physical pain of any kind; the punishment ( infliction of pain for behavior modification ) becomes discipline.
 
( this is just my own opinion and is not meant to be seen as a generalization for all )

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 6:58:52 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
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Status: offline 		Susan,

Borrowing from my parenting experience... Discipline is when there were clearly laid-out rules with appropriate consequences. The UMs knew exactly what was expected of them and what would happen if they broke the rules. The consequences were about helping them learn to obey in as positive a way as possible.

Punishment was when a parent did not have control over themselves and went all out in determining the "consequences" to assuage the parent's emotional needs above the child's. Sometimes that parent was me, though hopefully not too often. Telling a UM they are grounded to their room for life is not reasonable and it's all about venting the parent's anger on the UM.

I will willingly take discipline from a Dominant who has my best interests in mind. I will take pain to please someone just because I enjoy pleasing and serving. I am not willing to be someone's punching bag just cuz he's furious with the world and wants a body to beat. (Not saying that, in the right relationship, I would totally rule out that kind of service, but it's not something that I could deal with on a regular basis.)

Just my thoughts....

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 7:10:13 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

I am not willing to be someone's punching bag just cuz he's furious with the world and wants a body to beat.


Gotta say that's quite a way of putting it. It scares me to think that some guys might take that as dominance. I think your POV is an excellent submissive perspective.

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 7:11:58 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

It's interesting as this thread goes on to see that there are dominants who feel that fear has no place in a loving D/s relationship or even in a non-loving D/s relationship and that there are also dominants who feel...like I do...that love and fear can exist together in a D/s relationship.

One thing I am observing...and please, other dominants who feel that fear CAN also be present, correct me if I am wrong...is that those who do feel that fear can exist in the equation do not feel it best that the fear be of the dominant themselves but rather, that it be of varying actions which might be taken by the dominant orrrrrr, of certain thoughts the dominant might have.  And that none of these so far involve such actions as abandonment, isolation, or abusive behavior.  I know they don't for me when I speak of the type of fear I have used and as noted, I haven't seen them in play by other dominants who also have fear in place in a D/s relationship.

But don't you think it an evasion to say that she fears my actions but not me, or that she fears my thoughts but not me... are these things not part of who I am?  It seems to me that such is shifting responsibility for our actions, that notion again creeping in that we should be "undangerous" and that to be feared or inspire fear is bad and evil.  It is bad morality.


I ca see what you mean.  I could have put it better but in my earlier posts, when I speak of a submissive fearing a dominant...in the context presented...I mean fear such as that inspired by an abusive dominant.  Fear of me that comes along with trust and love I have no problem with but I equate that type of fear with a good feeling and I believe such a feeling is indeed possible.  Yes, it is me carrying through on those actions and thoughts and they are indeed a part of me as you noted.  Just as the abusive dominant, whose actions and thoughts are to be feared in a "bad" way, would be me.

quote:

So no, I want her to fear me and I take responsibility for that.  If I punish, it is me she fears in that moment because I am responsible for my actions.  If she fears my thoughts, here too it is me she fears because I am responsible for my thoughts.  That that fear may cause her to refrain from some undesired action, just as a similar fear keeps us from sticking our hand in the flame and being burned, is not an unhealthy thing.


Agreed. 

quote:

Fear is like any other emotion, like love, affection, anger... they may all be measured by degrees.  In balance they are healthy and can help us live... taken to extremes any of them become toxic.

So yes, my submissive fears me... but she is not terrified of me.  She is not terrified because I have not gone to extremes in my actions... and her experiences tells her she may rely upon me not to do so.


We look at this the same way, Padriag.  We just came at it from differing word usage.  I know and agree that I am indeed responsible for my actions and thoughts and that they are not separate from me.  As explained, I came at it in the way I did to differentiate between two types of fear.

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 7:19:21 AM   
happypervert


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From: Scranton, PA
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quote:

Can you give any other specific examples of Dominant's mis-using fear as a "motivator"?

Somewhere there is a line that gets crossed between motivator and misuse, but where the line is depends on the couple. I believe that for some people fear is a kink so their line is higher; I also suspect that beyond them there are others where it goes from kink to dysfunction.

Earlier I used the analogy of carrots and sticks as motivators, and IMO if there are no carrots and nothing but sticks then it is likely misuse of fear in a tyrannical or dysfunctional situation.

Another example of misuse that immediately pops to mind is a dominant who often threatens to end the relationship if he isn't obeyed. It may be necessary to use that threat once but only under the most trying circumstances; using it often does nothing but destabilize the relationship by making the submissive insecure, and a lack of follow through also diminishes the credibility of the dominant..




< Message edited by happypervert -- 3/5/2007 7:24:01 AM >

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 7:43:24 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

Borrowing from my parenting experience... Discipline is when there were clearly laid-out rules with appropriate consequences. The UMs knew exactly what was expected of them and what would happen if they broke the rules. The consequences were about helping them learn to obey in as positive a way as possible.

Punishment was when a parent did not have control over themselves and went all out in determining the "consequences" to assuage the parent's emotional needs above the child's. Sometimes that parent was me, though hopefully not too often. Telling a UM they are grounded to their room for life is not reasonable and it's all about venting the parent's anger on the UM.

Not to pick on you Lizzie, but you very clearly articulated something I find worth highlighting.  I find it interesting that so many share this distinction between two words that are otherwise synonyms (i.e. Roget's Thesaurus, Punishment (n) syns: correction, discipline, punition).  It is interesting that at some point "punishment" became "bad" or "evil" and yet we still have discipline, which is used in the vernacular in the exact same way punishment once was.  I have my suspicions about the origins of that divide and redefinement but nothing conclusive.  Still, its often the source of misunderstanding in such discussions... two people use the same word, which means different things to each... often without the other being aware.

How many arguments have happened over such a simple misappropriation of words and their meanings?  How many judgements made on the basis of such a brief misunderstanding?  Would a reminder of the definition of punishment help?

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Machevelli Domination - 3/5/2007 7:49:03 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

We look at this the same way, Padriag.  We just came at it from differing word usage.  I know and agree that I am indeed responsible for my actions and thoughts and that they are not separate from me.  As explained, I came at it in the way I did to differentiate between two types of fear.

I think there is much in this discussion that needs to be defined and differentiated to avoid misunderstandings.  If I seem severe it is because I feel the need to be to avoid those misunderstandings.  And also because I believe that as dominants we should be most severe with ourselves, most disciplined with ourselves.  Whether that be with our actions or even our words, because much depends on us.  But then too, we could differentiate between types of dominants... whether someone who adopts that as a style of life (as I often mean) or someone who is only dominant in the bedroom or at a play party (which would be far less demanding and entail less responsibility).  That you might help in illustrating those differences would be welcome.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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