RE: Are submissives weak?

RE: Are submissives weak? (Full Version)

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Tristan -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/5/2007 8:59:15 PM)
Is anything we do related to strength and weakness? I'm guessing that it has absolutely nothing to do with strength or weakness with one exception that I will get to later. I think domination and submission is related purely to kink - something that people find exciting in and of itself. Kink for most of us on this website is domination or submission The question, however, is interesting for two reasons. The first is that there are both male and female dominants that do think submissives are weak. These are people (in my opinion) that don't fully understand what it is that excites us dominants and submissives. They see the world as dominant means winning and success, and submission means losing and failure. Our culture certainly promotes this belief to some degree. The second is there are many dominants with "issues". Those issues often result in putting down submissives or dominants of the other gender in order for feel superior. Maybe both of these traits are caused by the same thing - insecurity. These insecurities are what I would consider a weakness. The wording of the original post makes me wonder if the intent of the original post was not to put down male dominants. The original post comes across as being somewhat superior with plenty of examples of the original poster's exploits in the world of D/s and an over generalization (with plenty of negative assumptions) of the attitutes of male dominants. That's just my impression, and I mean no disrespect if I'm wrong. Getting back to submission, many if not most of the world religions hold submission to a higher cause the greatest experience of being human. Dominance (I think) can also be thought of as submission to a higher cause. Dominance does not mean doing what ever we desire with our submissives. It means taking control in a way that will be a positive experience for both dominant and submissive. It means listening and understanding to what it is that really excites our submissive partners. It's an incredibly intense and cool experience when done well. Tristan

kodyrox5342 -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/7/2007 6:24:35 PM)
I dont think subs are weak. personally, i am a sub, and outside of the lifestyle i can be a spitfire, its more of a control seeking rather than a strong/weak issue

Cefoxitin -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/7/2007 6:40:40 PM)
No, i know male subs, some weak and some strong. it is not an actual question of weak or strong, it is a question of control. you spend time in control always scared to loose control, and then find someone elce to trust to make decisions and you as a sub can relax and not make desisions, make someone elce think for you. being a sub is a choice and the power to make that choice is every living person weather knowing or not. I like my subs with a will, it makes them worthwile and interesting. i hate simpering sops. but for some reson in my experiance i have found that the better subs are pain sluts. maybe it is a disipline issue. you know, that is very interesting. well i dunno if that helped but it is my answer

MzMia -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/7/2007 7:59:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Hello MsC, I have noticed that a great majority of the submissive males tend to be white collar men. I tend to notice more blue collar men that are Dominants. This makes sense, men that have to take orders all day or work under someone would want to be in charge when they come home. Transversley, many lawyers, physicians and businessmen want to relinquish control. Works for me.[:D] Any comments?[:D] Yes, I'll comment. I think you are mistaking (or these men are) the desire for kinky fantasy play for submission here. All of the men that I know who are high powered executives, lawyers, or whatever who want to be "dominated" merely want the fantasy of giving up control while they are inflicted with whatever "punishment" they might deserve. Very few of these people (if any, that I know) are interested in a D/s or M/s relationship where they would actually be under a woman's control for real. On the other hand, some of the best slaves I know have been in the military. They may not have been at the bottom of the chain, may not have been at the top, but they do know a thing or two about taking orders. Most of the real submissives and slaves I know have normal jobs and are neither CEOs nor peons (and I'm using real as opposed to the the "Oh Mistress I NEEED to be humiliated" types, also defining it as being in a relationship as a slave currently.) I agree to a point and then I disagree. There are "players" in all sorts of professions, I have talked to many "players" that drove a truck for a living. I don't believe most submissive men with advanced degrees are players. We can agree to disagree here, I am not sure about military men, but I will take your word on it. I still don't see a lot of archie bunker old school boys being dedicated male submissive men.

moki1984 -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/8/2007 9:40:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: azzmaster of course subs r weak. but wise enuff 2 acknowledgetheir weakness and get the protection of a master. its just nature, the weak seek thestraong and serve them. nothing 2 be ashamed of, the shame is not knowin who u r I completely disagree with that statement. Many strong men and women are subs because it gives them a balance.

Vendaval -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/8/2007 10:01:26 AM)
I think that there is a cultural perception, based on sex role expectations, that those who submit are weak. Therefore, women in general are viewed as weak and men who submit are viewed as traitors to their gender and the expected role of dominance. This differs from my own experiences and the conversations I have with other Dominants, both female and male. Submissives, whether male, female or TG, run the full spectrum of personality types from very weak to very strong. Specifically in regards to male subs, most of them tend to need the release of submitting to a stronger personality because they have to be in control at all time in their daily life. I will second the person who mentioned that many military guys, the real manly men, are drawn to serve a Dominant. They are attracted to the structure and the discipline and the physical toughness. One of my subs is a former military officer and has commented, "It requires more strength to submit and take the pain than to fight back or run away."

MistressNoName -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/8/2007 10:22:56 AM)
Well it's too bad that this thread is now 4 pages long and there hasn't been much substantial and honest discussion on the OP's topic... The way I read her original post, I never got the impression that she herself was carelessly generalizin abt male Tops, but only addressing what seems to be a general attitude - the topic was in regard to what seems to be the pervasive feelings regarding male Tops toward male bottoms. The fact is by and large in our society, whether you are talking abt the kink community or the vanilla community, the submissive male is not regarded with as much respect as the Dominant male. And no, I have not conducted any scientific studies, but I have eyes and ears and I am fully aware of the cultural bias in our society against submissive men. I so wish we could have an honest discussion on this topic and I do also wish more male Tops would come out from hiding and really address the issue. Is it possible the enlightened men on this site know nothing of this pervasive attitude within our culture? Still, it certainly exists. Why else would so many submissive men struggle with their submission during their coming out processes? MNN

michelle42 -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/8/2007 2:23:00 PM)
of course we male submissives are weak,we want to submit ourselves to someone who is strong, to protect us,look after us,to punish us when we stray,i always know its because the Master cares about you when he punishes you to make you a better person.

Tristan -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/8/2007 2:53:46 PM)
quote: The fact is by and large in our society, whether you are talking abt the kink community or the vanilla community, the submissive male is not regarded with as much respect as the Dominant male. If you are equating success in career and wealth with dominance, then I would agree with you completely. Successful men and attractive women are respected in our society. They can often do just about anything they want. I don't think there is any way to dispute that. If you are talking strickly about dominance and submission as a kink, then I would disagree. As the OP stated, most of her submissives were successful men. I'm guessing they were highly respected in their professions. I'm also guessing that the vanilla world would condemn most of us regardless of which side of the D/s equation we fall. That's why I keep my kinks in the bedroom. Do dominant men look down on submissive men in the lifestyle? I've not really noticed it. Yeah, I see plenty of insecure people that look down on anyone that's different, but I'm not sure I'm seeing submissive men being singled out and put down for their submission. One trend that I have noticed is that all people tend to treat submissive men who post more negatively than submissive women who post nearly the same thing. There seems to be an attitude that submissive men are more players or fakes than submissive women. It sure seems that nearly all people including dominant and submissive women tend to take this view of submissive men in the posts. There are exceptions. I've noticed many very articulate submissive men whose posts seem to be well received. I'll be the first to admit that I may be completely missing something because I tend not to be too concerned about a person's career, money, and kinks. Tristan

hereyesruponyou -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/8/2007 3:28:31 PM)
I think some PEOPLE are weak..... therefore there will be weak subs and weak Dom's and lots more inbetween. Strength lies somewhere inside to me and is really immeasurable except in specific circumstances. Another thought however is......do you think that male subs who take on feminine roles (either in serving or dress etc) are seen as weak simply because women have been portrayed as "the weaker sex"?

kc692 -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/8/2007 4:49:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressNoName Well it's too bad that this thread is now 4 pages long and there hasn't been much substantial and honest discussion on the OP's topic... The way I read her original post, I never got the impression that she herself was carelessly generalizin abt male Tops, but only addressing what seems to be a general attitude - the topic was in regard to what seems to be the pervasive feelings regarding male Tops toward male bottoms. The fact is by and large in our society, whether you are talking abt the kink community or the vanilla community, the submissive male is not regarded with as much respect as the Dominant male. And no, I have not conducted any scientific studies, but I have eyes and ears and I am fully aware of the cultural bias in our society against submissive men. I so wish we could have an honest discussion on this topic and I do also wish more male Tops would come out from hiding and really address the issue. Is it possible the enlightened men on this site know nothing of this pervasive attitude within our culture? Still, it certainly exists. Why else would so many submissive men struggle with their submission during their coming out processes? MNN She made it very clear (albeit respectfully) that she was looking for input from MALE dominants, so some have tried to respect her wishes

ncmaster75 -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/8/2007 9:41:05 PM)
Submissives are not weak at all. Submitting to someone and obeying their orders whether pleasant or not takes good ole fashioned guts, point blank. It takes mental strength to overcome pride, and physical strength to endure punishments.

Tristan -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/9/2007 2:09:44 PM)
quote: Is it possible the enlightened men on this site know nothing of this pervasive attitude within our culture? Just one more observation. As I said earlier, I haven't noticed a general belief by dominant men that submissive men are weak. However, I do think that submissive men and women are treated differently by the entire D/s community. I always assumed that this was because of basic gender expectations that we all have and we all bring with us into the D/s world. One of the biggest differences is how a submissive man is treated when he tries to discuss his needs on the boards. I think nearly everyone will condemn the submissive man as being self centered, and nearly everyone will encourage the submissive woman to leave the relationship if her needs are not being met. I've also noticed that it's quite common for many dominant women to be the loudest critics of these submissive men. Why? I've always assumed that for many dominant women, there are so many submissive men to choice from that they do not have to be too concerned about their partner's needs. A dominant woman seems to have no limit of potential partners so why deal with someone who makes demands. I'm guessing that most people would do the same thing if potential partners are never hard to find. Sorry, I know that I'm straying from the original post. It's an interesting topic though. Tristan

petkitty -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/10/2007 1:34:22 AM)
IMO BDSM-lifestyle is symbiotic two-way relationship and all people have "natural" dominant, submissive or switch(both) personality. I'm "naturally" submissive. It's part of my everyday life. I need someone with dominant personality to take care of me and in exchange I shall serve him or her. I don't see myself as weak. I have strong personality and will, but living alone is not for me as I'm just one part of a man. I need dominant male or female to give my life meaning and explore this lifestyle and world together as parts of whole. Doms may have it easier living alone, but atleast some dominants I know have confessed to me that they truly need someone submissive in their life and can't really live without one. Now truth is that there are LOTS of "weak" doms and submissives. They seek you out and want to play, but have no interest in real relationship and are often shy and fearful of new things. I don't hate them, but I wish people would have more courage to be what they want to be and break these boundaries our culture has set.

amayos -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/10/2007 11:26:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne There seems to be a common belief that you male Master/Dom/Tops think male submissives are weak While a certain "weakness" is inherent somewhere in the act of submission, that is not to say power is not made from it. If one's complete and shameless submission gives another comfort, health, happiness and gain, how can this really be attributed to something inconsequential or inadequate? Having said that, making a fetish out of "strength" in submission inspirits a strange camp of proud ideology, or in the very least, smacks of clever marketing to me. If you are doing what it is in your nature to do, it simply is what it is. Malnourished and broken or spirited and ravenous—both animals are useful in their own way if truly made into slaves.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/10/2007 11:36:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos quote: ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne There seems to be a common belief that you male Master/Dom/Tops think male submissives are weak While a certain "weakness" is inherent somewhere in the act of submission, that is not to say power is not made from it. If one's complete and shameless submission gives another comfort, health, happiness and gain, how can this really be attributed to something inconsequential or inadequate? Having said that, making a fetish out of "strength" in submission inspirits a strange camp of proud ideology, or in the very least, smacks of clever marketing to me. If you are doing what it is in your nature to do, it simply is what it is. Malnourished and broken or spirited and ravenous—both animals are useful in their own way if truly made into slaves. As usual, I loved your words. There is a paradox I believe I experience...where I feel utterly and totally weak to my Master yet it is the strength of spirit which allows me that, and allows me to do for him what I do. Am I strong? Yes. Am I weak? Yes. More importantly - am I true to myself and complete as a slave to him? Yes.

slaveboy0012000 -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/10/2007 11:41:04 AM)
well, i am 6'3 230lbs, weightlifter, and i choose to be submissive....and i would hope i am definately NOT weak

servicewithsmile -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/10/2007 6:00:59 PM)
Well I suppose the horse is dead and headed for the glue factory, but I'll chime in anyway. When I came "out" to my family, they thought I was telling them I was a dominatrix. LOL I had to explain that, "No, I prefer the other end of the power exchange.". Even my family thinks I am a dominant personality. (smile) And no, I've never submitted to a blue collar guy claiming to be a Master. Don't know where folks assume that is common. Not in my experience. Well...there was that one fedex guy, but he was really just bedroom kinky.

MistressNoName -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/10/2007 9:53:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tristan quote: Is it possible the enlightened men on this site know nothing of this pervasive attitude within our culture? Just one more observation. As I said earlier, I haven't noticed a general belief by dominant men that submissive men are weak. However, I do think that submissive men and women are treated differently by the entire D/s community. I always assumed that this was because of basic gender expectations that we all have and we all bring with us into the D/s world. One of the biggest differences is how a submissive man is treated when he tries to discuss his needs on the boards. I think nearly everyone will condemn the submissive man as being self centered, and nearly everyone will encourage the submissive woman to leave the relationship if her needs are not being met. I've also noticed that it's quite common for many dominant women to be the loudest critics of these submissive men. Why? I've always assumed that for many dominant women, there are so many submissive men to choice from that they do not have to be too concerned about their partner's needs. A dominant woman seems to have no limit of potential partners so why deal with someone who makes demands. I'm guessing that most people would do the same thing if potential partners are never hard to find. Sorry, I know that I'm straying from the original post. It's an interesting topic though. Tristan I agree it is a most interesting topic. Hope to see a real discussion on it.

NightWindWhisper -> RE: Are submissives weak? (3/11/2007 9:08:09 AM)
" I was asking (not demanding) the Masters* if the "generalisation" about* them was true or not." My answer: Not. I would no sooner think a malesub was "weak," than I would think that any "dom" was strong. Even the concept of weak or strong is as much in the eye of the beholder rather than the eye of the observer. Nor would I think that a hunky he-man malesub would be any "stronger" than a sissy sub, for again, what is the criteria? In this world strong and weak can get turned upside down. Lawyers, police officers, CEO's are by some definition strong, and this alone may bring some to seek the perceived "weakness" of submission (if that is their kink) for it is the counterpart that offsets the rest of their life. Online however malesubs can often be pushy, and aggressive, even demanding, and I think that this might lead some to react to all malesubs (online only) disrespectfully. In real life I have never once seen a dominant treat a malesub disrespectfully, and if I did, I'd likely intercede. Your question #2: " 2) you would be ashamed to admit if you actually tried - and god forbid enjoyed - submitting to a woman." I would not be ashamed to admit that I tried, and enjoyed submitting to a woman for if that occurred why would I say otherwise. However I believe there is no more obligation for anyone to try your flavor of ice cream simply because you think that every person should try it, than there is for me to ask you "would you be ashamed to admit, if you actually tried - and god forbid, enjoyed - submitting to me?" When the occasional situation poses that sort of question my answer is: "It's ok, go ahead, try..." That's never led anywhere, but you are welcome to try me...

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