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RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/25/2007 10:19:02 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Well, to quote another of the last centuries great "progressive" leaders: All power comes from the barrel of a gun.


Mao?


You got it in one.

And while I was being somewhat humorous, it is a statement of truth as well.  It's the reason for the "right to bear arms" by the people, so that when/if the government becomes too oppressive, the people have the ability to replace it.

Power comes from the people ... only so long as the people have the ability to take it back from the government.  Once the government no longer fears the people ... then you'll have tryanny.

I've tried to tell FB several times that we agree on some stuff, but he never seems to actually "listen" to anything I post.  Just glances over it and goes into hyper-attack-mode. 

So ... the right to bear arms ... is tied in with the formation of militias ....

That's one of the reasons that every able-bodied male in the US is considered a member of the militia, whether they believe themselves to be or not.  This gives them the right to bear arms, and, in the final analysis, the right to overturn their own government, because the power that the government uses, is rightfully the peoples in the first place.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/25/2007 10:33:11 PM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 181
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/25/2007 10:32:20 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

You got it in one.


I'm glad you put "progressive" in quotes then. He sounds like an incredible bastard.

quote:

the power that the government uses, is rightfully the peoples in the first place.


That gets forgotten far too often, imho.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/25/2007 10:39:57 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

the power that the government uses, is rightfully the peoples in the first place.


That gets forgotten far too often, imho.


Agreed.

I think it was caitlyn that said in another thread that she sees the possibility of the day when we might have to revolt against our current government. 

I agree, and actually, while I believe that the current equilibrum can stay for a long time - I also believe that it wouldn't take much for the Federal government to become too smug in their power, to start to become what many "liberals" think it already is under Bush - a dictatorship.

I don't agree with them, right now.  When a "liberal" is in power, the "right' has the same fears and anxieties, too, but in a mirror image to the "lefts" current concerns.

Remember all the talk of "militias" back during the Clinton years?  Ruby Ridge?  Waco?  It's why "gun control" is such an important issue to the "right".  To them (and me) it's code for "remove the ability of the people to resist the power of the government".

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/25/2007 10:41:09 PM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/25/2007 10:48:41 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		One of my great hopes is that we're too big, unwieldy, and inefficient for a dictator to gain power!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/25/2007 10:50:17 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Whenever folks complain that the government can't get anything done, I remind them that it was designed that way. Passing laws is supposed to be grindingly difficult and require compromises in order to frustrate tyranny.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 3:34:25 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		I remember that. In fact, I was a spectator at Randy Weavers' trial in Boise. A Federal Agent had told Randy Weaver to cut off a shotgun "right there" (where it was a felony)and then sell it to him (another felony) as a way to help his extremely poor family make some badly needed money. Then they (the Clinton administration) used the "crimes" he committed to twist his arm, and try to force him to wear a wire among the "Aryan Nations" with whom he was merely friendly. He rightfully refused (he could have been killed by the skin heads if they found out), and therefore he became a wanted man. When the Feds moved in to arrest him, they killed his wife and his son...

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Remember all the talk of "militias" back during the Clinton years?  Ruby Ridge?  Waco?  It's why "gun control" is such an important issue to the "right".  To them (and me) it's code for "remove the ability of the people to resist the power of the government".

FirmKY

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 3:49:42 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

the power that the government uses, is rightfully the peoples in the first place.


That gets forgotten far too often, imho.


Agreed.

I think it was caitlyn that said in another thread that she sees the possibility of the day when we might have to revolt against our current government. 

I agree, and actually, while I believe that the current equilibrum can stay for a long time - I also believe that it wouldn't take much for the Federal government to become too smug in their power, to start to become what many "liberals" think it already is under Bush - a dictatorship.

I don't agree with them, right now.  When a "liberal" is in power, the "right' has the same fears and anxieties, too, but in a mirror image to the "lefts" current concerns.

Remember all the talk of "militias" back during the Clinton years?  Ruby Ridge?  Waco?  It's why "gun control" is such an important issue to the "right".  To them (and me) it's code for "remove the ability of the people to resist the power of the government".

FirmKY


caitlin was hardly the first to say it..

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.  ---Thomas Jefferson


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 3:56:08 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I remember that. In fact, I was a spectator at Randy Weavers' trial in Boise. A Federal Agent had told Randy Weaver to cut off a shotgun "right there" (where it was a felony)and then sell it to him (another felony) as a way to help his extremely poor family make some badly needed money. Then they (the Clinton administration) used the "crimes" he committed to twist his arm, and try to force him to wear a wire among the "Aryan Nations" with whom he was merely friendly. He rightfully refused (he could have been killed by the skin heads if they found out), and therefore he became a wanted man. When the Feds moved in to arrest him, they killed his wife and his son...

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Remember all the talk of "militias" back during the Clinton years?  Ruby Ridge?  Waco?  It's why "gun control" is such an important issue to the "right".  To them (and me) it's code for "remove the ability of the people to resist the power of the government".

FirmKY




yep in cold assed blood too!

waco was over 200 bucks that koresh did not pay for his gun.  So they used tanks to torch and fry pver 100 men woman and children.

and we have the balls to talk about tinaman square and sadam hussien.

We are a laughing stock of the world.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 4:19:54 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Can you think of no differences between our rights as Americans, and the lack of rights that socialists in China and Iraq suffer(d) under?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
yep in cold assed blood too!

waco was over 200 bucks that koresh did not pay for his gun.  So they used tanks to torch and fry pver 100 men woman and children.

and we have the balls to talk about tinaman square and sadam hussien.

We are a laughing stock of the world.



< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/26/2007 4:21:59 AM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 4:28:12 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

caitlin was hardly the first to say it..

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.  ---Thomas Jefferson


What Jefferson actually said was:
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion....what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
-- Thomas Jefferson, 1787


I never said she was the first in history to say it.  Just that she is a very intelligent, thoughful young person, who has seen the basis of power, how government affects the lives of all Americans, the current social order, and arrived at the same conclusion as many others, starting with ..  John Locke who theorized on the "right of revolution" in his 1689 book Two Treatises of Government.

It's most memorable usage is in the US Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

FirmKY

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 5:06:23 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Can you think of no differences between our rights as Americans, and the lack of rights that socialists in China and Iraq suffer(d) under?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
yep in cold assed blood too!

waco was over 200 bucks that koresh did not pay for his gun.  So they used tanks to torch and fry pver 100 men woman and children.

and we have the balls to talk about tinaman square and sadam hussien.

We are a laughing stock of the world.


Unfortunately, Real0ne seems to be a vinyl LP with scratch, and a skip track constantly playing.

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 5:33:13 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		As the bureaucrats take over, the Government becomes less concerned about the DELIVERABLE the Government is responsible for, and more concerned about the growth of the bureaucracy.

Eventually, we get to a point where: The Purpose of Government is to hire Government Employees.

Consider that no "B" quality manager will ever hire an "A" quality manager as a subordinate, due to their insecurities, this limits the ultimate effectiveness of any organization to that of it's leader's insecurity.

At *SOME POINT* the balance tips, and it stops being about "The People" and becomes about "The Organization"

I believe the ultimate result of Democracy is Dictatorship, because that's the most efficient way to run "The Organization". They don't have votes about how to run the NTSB.

That's why revolution needs to be built in. The attempt to strictly limit the power of the Federal Government via the Constitution is a complete failure. Fall back to Declaration of Independence.

They got that right. Just didn't anticipate the whole Idiot Box effect.

Lincoln was wrong. The Union had shot it's wad and self destructed. Since then, it's been Zombie-America...



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/26/2007 5:34:38 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 5:50:02 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I never said she was the first in history to say it.  Just that she is a very intelligent, thoughful young person, who has seen the basis of power, how government affects the lives of all Americans, the current social order, and arrived at the same conclusion as many others, starting with ..  John Locke who theorized on the "right of revolution" in his 1689 book Two Treatises of Government.



Locke also held that our understanding of reality ultimately derives from what we have experienced through our senses.

By extension, a core group of determined individuals, in the form of government, can make us believe things aren't necessarily what they seem.



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Everyone Loves GW Bush! - 3/26/2007 6:15:00 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

One can lead a person to knowledge, but one cannot make them think.






Thank you, FirmKY.

The commentary you provided was scintillating and factual and well thought out.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 194
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 6:19:13 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Due to a run-in I once had with Timothy Leary it's sometimes very difficult for people to follow my train of thought, or my logic... long story, and not what you think, unless you've met him yourself, possibly. Point is, I know this. But there seem to be many (nameless) here whose trains have completely derailed, and I can't help but wonder who or what THEY ran into in THEIR lives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Unfortunately, Real0ne seems to be a vinyl LP with scratch, and a skip track constantly playing.

FirmKY



< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/26/2007 6:32:49 AM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 8:10:52 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Due to a run-in I once had with Timothy Leary it's sometimes very difficult for people to follow my train of thought, or my logic... long story, and not what you think, unless you've met him yourself, possibly. Point is, I know this. But there seem to be many (nameless) here whose trains have completely derailed, and I can't help but wonder who or what THEY ran into in THEIR lives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Unfortunately, Real0ne seems to be a vinyl LP with scratch, and a skip track constantly playing.

FirmKY




hehe ... no comment.  I've ventured as far to the edges of the TOS as I dare.  

It's a shame, though, because some of them are actually pretty intelligent.  It's just that they get in that "stuck" position.

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 8:13:38 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I never said she was the first in history to say it.  Just that she is a very intelligent, thoughful young person, who has seen the basis of power, how government affects the lives of all Americans, the current social order, and arrived at the same conclusion as many others, starting with ..  John Locke who theorized on the "right of revolution" in his 1689 book Two Treatises of Government.



Locke also held that our understanding of reality ultimately derives from what we have experienced through our senses.

By extension, a core group of determined individuals, in the form of government, can make us believe things aren't necessarily what they seem.



hmmmm.

Can you expound on that, NG?

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 8:30:10 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		It may run something along these lines:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Just a guess tho, NG can do his own thing.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 9:43:36 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I remember that. In fact, I was a spectator at Randy Weavers' trial in Boise. A Federal Agent had told Randy Weaver to cut off a shotgun "right there" (where it was a felony)and then sell it to him (another felony) as a way to help his extremely poor family make some badly needed money. Then they (the Clinton administration) used the "crimes" he committed to twist his arm, and try to force him to wear a wire among the "Aryan Nations" with whom he was merely friendly. He rightfully refused (he could have been killed by the skin heads if they found out), and therefore he became a wanted man. When the Feds moved in to arrest him, they killed his wife and his son...

The violent incidents occured on August 21-22 1992. The standoff ended 10 days later.

Clinton was sworn into office in January 1993.

So that would have been the George H. W. Bush administration that tried to get Weaver to wear a wire during contact with Aryan Nation meetings.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/26/2007 9:52:13 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

caitlin was hardly the first to say it..

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.  ---Thomas Jefferson


What Jefferson actually said was:
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion....what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
-- Thomas Jefferson, 1787


I never said she was the first in history to say it.
FirmKY


i never said that you said it.  i merely made the statement and thought it was pretty obvious that i agreed with you.


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Can you think of no differences between our rights as Americans, and the lack of rights that socialists in China and Iraq suffer(d) under?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
yep in cold assed blood too!

waco was over 200 bucks that koresh did not pay for his gun.  So they used tanks to torch and fry pver 100 men woman and children.

and we have the balls to talk about tinaman square and sadam hussien.

We are a laughing stock of the world.


Unfortunately, Real0ne seems to be a vinyl LP with scratch, and a skip track constantly playing.

FirmKY



Lot of that seems to be going around doesnt it.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 200
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