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RE: Everyone Loves GW Bush! - 3/25/2007 9:08:29 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

But, regardless, if you meet the qualifications of a member of the unorganized militia otherwise ... he IS your CinC.


Not until the Unorganized Militia is federalized, before that happens, they need to be called up and integrated into the existing organized militas, which for those who agree with the Dick Act, is pretty much the National Guard.

Until then? The Elected Officials of the United States CONTINUE to be Our Bitches.

And they better shape the fuck up.

REPEAL THE 17TH AMENDMENT!


What part of 10USC311 is unclear to you, FB?

And I agree.  Repeal the 17th!

FirmKY


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RE: Thank God for the 22nd Amendment - 3/25/2007 9:08:40 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Turns out the 17th Amendment is popular election of senators.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Thank God for the 22nd Amendment - 3/25/2007 9:09:04 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

REPEAL THE 17TH AMENDMENT!


Which one is the 17th and why do you dislike it?


"The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof"

Direct Elections of Senators totally fucked over States Rights.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Thank God for the 22nd Amendment - 3/25/2007 9:09:51 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		What's wrong with the 17th Amendment?

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No matter how cynical you become,
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JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Thank God for the 22nd Amendment - 3/25/2007 9:10:06 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof"

Direct Elections of Senators totally fucked over States Rights.


I agree.  It's one of the biggest mistakes in allowing unchecked Federal power.

FirmKY


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RE: Thank God for the 22nd Amendment - 3/25/2007 9:11:26 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Direct Elections of Senators totally fucked over States Rights.


How? They're still only elected by folks from that state.

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No matter how cynical you become,
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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 166
HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/25/2007 9:16:41 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		The difference is in the loyality of the Senators, to either the individual States, or to the Federal Government.  Previous to the amendment, Senators were not popularly elected, by generally chosen by the State Legislatures to represent the State's interests in the Federal process.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/25/2007 9:18:41 PM >

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RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 9:19:12 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Aren't they still loyal to their states? After all, that's where their power source lies.

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! - 3/25/2007 9:28:14 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		Yes and no.

Think of it this way:

Before the 17th, a Senator was beholding to the government of the State itself.  Only indirectly did they represent the people.  They were not popularly elected.

Now, the State is totally bypassed.  Their source of governmental power goes straight from the people to the Federal government.  State governments are cut out of the loop.

It was an effective measure to castrate the States at the Federal level.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/25/2007 10:28:00 PM >

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RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 9:31:02 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		But has it actually affected how senators function? It certainly doesn't seem to have lessened their taste for pork.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 9:32:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		The next two most important ways that the Federal government castrated the States was in introducing the Federal Income tax, and then the Supreme court allowing the Feds to tie distribution of Federally collected income taxes back to the States based on the States' agreement to following the Federal rules in order to collect the money.

Get it?  The Fed uses the States own money to subordinate them to the Federal will.

A neat little racket.

FirmKY


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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 9:34:26 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

But has it actually affected how senators function? It certainly doesn't seem to have lessened their taste for pork.


Well, I've seen it argued both ways, but I'll simply ask you a question:

If a State government is pissed off at a Federal Senator ... what can it do?

FirmKY


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RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 9:40:26 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Not much, true.

But I don't think it's cause they've lost power to the feds. Rather, they've ceded it to its rightful owners--the people.

The bulk of the states must have agreed with the change, or they wouldn't have ratified the amendment.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 9:41:27 PM   
Sternhand4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

But has it actually affected how senators function? It certainly doesn't seem to have lessened their taste for pork.


Well, I've seen it argued both ways, but I'll simply ask you a question:

If a State government is pissed off at a Federal Senator ... what can it do?

FirmKY


Nothing...
until election season and the senator faces a primary from his district and the local party support is yanked from him/her
But as its a 6 year term and you have a chance to kiss and make up its rarely a factor. but it is a consideration that gets made.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 9:54:43 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Not much, true.

But I don't think it's cause they've lost power to the feds. Rather, they've ceded it to its rightful owners--the people.

The bulk of the states must have agreed with the change, or they wouldn't have ratified the amendment.


The "rightful" power of a Senator came from the State, not the people.  That's the way the the Constitutional system was originally set up, to give the State governments a strong say in the Federal system.  In fact ... that's what made it a "Federal" system.

Now, States are actually little more than administrative districts of the Federal government and have little if any real sovereignty.

States were suppose to be a counterweight to Federal power.  They lost that struggle.  The 17th amendment is the biggest reason why.

FirmKY




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RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 9:57:19 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		And those senators are paid by the federal government instead of their respective states!
That can't be good!
Yes, we should change that.

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 9:58:57 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The "rightful" power of a Senator came from the State, not the people.


But doesn't all power ultimately come from the people? In theory, at least?

quote:

States were suppose to be a counterweight to Federal power. They lost that struggle. The 17th amendment is the biggest reason why.


Do you know why three-quarters (?) of the states ratified the amendment? I don't know this bit of history at all.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 10:01:32 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
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Status: offline 		This is what killed the US Federal System and the sovereignty of the individual States:

Amendment XVI (the Sixteenth Amendment) of the United States Constitution, authorizing income taxes in their present form, was ratified on February 3, 1913.

Amendment XVII (the Seventeenth Amendment) of the United States Constitution proposed on May 13, 1912 and ratified on April 8, 1913 and first in effect for the election of 1914, amends Article 1 Section 3 of the Constitution to provide for the direct election of Senators by the people of a state rather than their election or appointment by a state legislature. It was passed and ratified during the Progressive Era.

FirmKY


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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 10:09:23 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The "rightful" power of a Senator came from the State, not the people.


But doesn't all power ultimately come from the people? In theory, at least?


Well, to quote another of the last centuries great "progressive" leaders: All power comes from the barrel of a gun.

But, yes all power starts with the people.  But the House of Representatives is "the people's house".  Senators, pre-17, were beholding to their individual State governments, and those State governments were elected by the people.

The difference is the direction and echelons that the power flows through.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

States were suppose to be a counterweight to Federal power. They lost that struggle. The 17th amendment is the biggest reason why.


Do you know why three-quarters (?) of the states ratified the amendment? I don't know this bit of history at all.


Sure.  They made the mistake of destroying the long term stability of the Federal system for a short term "fix" of another problem:  scandals in the then current election system of Senators.

Wiki gives a short sketch.

They threw out the baby with the bath water.  They forgot we had a republic, and wanted us to be a democracy.

FirmKY


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RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Admendment! - 3/25/2007 10:12:27 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Well, to quote another of the last centuries great "progressive" leaders: All power comes from the barrel of a gun.


Mao?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 180
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