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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/23/2007 10:23:24 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Anyone have any thoughts?


Yes, you mistake cooperation and equality of the sexes in a marriage for D/S. When a husband values his wife's judgment and opinion, its not submission, its connectedness.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/23/2007 11:15:01 PM   
MsRose


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Status: offline 		I did see the film, but I didn't see that Leonidas, or the othe Spartan men (in the film) were subservient to the women. I saw equality and respect. I witnessed a people engaged in a struggle for survival. That seemed, at least in this film, to level the playing field between king and queen. That gratuitous sex scene was a bit unnerving, but I guess you need a little comic relief in a film that violent.

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/23/2007 11:30:49 PM   
MsRose


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RPutnamJr

I doubt though anybody would make the conclusion that Spartan men were weak and submissive.


Italics mine. I don't think this should be conjunctive - "submissive" doesn't mean "weak" and I don't see a link between the two. I hope I misinterpreted your intention here.

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/24/2007 9:41:29 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		As in the movie, Queen Gorgo states she is allowed to bear children.  In the Spartan Cultural only certain women were allowed to have children.  These Spartan Women did enjoy an amount of freedom not given to other women of that time.  There focus was to give birth to the next generation of Spartan Warriors, a task they cherrish.  It is said that the red cape the Spartan Warriors wore was a reminder of a Spartan Mother who found out her Son fled from battle, she killed him.  As the Queen said "Come back carrying your shield or on it." In Spartan lore this is what Spartan Mothers told their Sons as the marched off to battle.
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro

_____________________________

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/24/2007 9:57:12 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Anyone have any thoughts?


Yes, you mistake cooperation and equality of the sexes in a marriage for D/S. When a husband values his wife's judgment and opinion, its not submission, its connectedness.



I agree.

We as a group of people who do Ds or SM or any other part of BDSM need to be careful to not filter the world through our eyes unless there is real evidence to support it.

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/24/2007 10:02:23 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

As in the movie, Queen Gorgo states she is allowed to bear children. In the Spartan Cultural only certain women were allowed to have children. These Spartan Women did enjoy an amount of freedom not given to other women of that time. There focus was to give birth to the next generation of Spartan Warriors, a task they cherrish. It is said that the red cape the Spartan Warriors wore was a reminder of a Spartan Mother who found out her Son fled from battle, she killed him. As the Queen said "Come back carrying your shield or on it." In Spartan lore this is what Spartan Mothers told their Sons as the marched off to battle.

I wish you well

Nosathro


Spartan women would no more "allowed" to children than would Spartan men. At least according to the ancient sources (none of which are Spartan on these issues by the way) both sexes were valued for their physical ablities and health. That and family ties would be the primary considerations for marriages which is where legitimate children would be created.

For most of the life of the marriage the husband and wife didn't live together -- she maintained the house and lands, he lived with the other men in barracks. Neither was submissive or dominant to the other because everyone served the polis (city-state) itself first and foremost. I have not doubt that if a man was even slightly cowardly or did something against the polis that the first person to turn against him would be his wife. Being his wife was nothing compared to her status as a Spartan woman and mother of future Spartan men and women.

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/25/2007 10:23:53 AM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		I really enjoyed the movie watching it with My sub male. 

Yes, the underlying submission of Leonidas to his Queen was an interesting characterization which I found absolutely delicious.  As Tammy Jo has pointed out, it's fodder for the masses, which makes ME even more appreciative of the old world view of Leonidas' devotion to his Lady.  Let's give the masses more subtle and not so subtle ideas of chivalry and devotion, shall we?

Although it was merely touched upon in the film, it certainly gave Me much to fantasize over long after I left the theater. 

But were Spartan's submissive?  Spartan women, as Tammy Jo points out, were legendary for their strength and were far more powerful in Spartan society than women in many other cultures.  But going so far as to presume that Spartan men were truly submissive is merely a dream, SimplyMichael, and you're just out here on the board TEASING ME deliberately aren't you????????????????

I really ejoyed the artwork, even the gore that was so well done in this film.  (And let's talk about the gore:  If we can't even look at a computerized beheading or a limb being chopped off because we're so appalled by the gore, let's assign it as required viewing for all members of Congress who are voting on funding our boys in Iraq, please. War is war.  Nuff said.)

For Me, the eye candy of 300 ripped and cut 'Spartans' in little more than leather jock cups and red capes was mezmerizing.

I've seen it three times!

Think I'll go again today. 

When can I buy the DVD?

Yeah, I know.   I'm One Sick Puppy!  *chortle*

TexasMaam



< Message edited by TexasMaam -- 3/25/2007 10:28:28 AM >

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/26/2007 1:55:36 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Anyone have any thoughts?


Yes, you mistake cooperation and equality of the sexes in a marriage for D/S. When a husband values his wife's judgment and opinion, its not submission, its connectedness.



Amen Brother.....I was getn' ready to work that angle before I read your post. I know the whole thing was mythical, but there was a lota flow there....



- R


_____________________________

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-General George S. Patton


(in reply to cloudboy)
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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/26/2007 2:24:32 AM   
imtempting


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Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Jus to add some more to the topic. It was ok for the soldiers to have sex with each other as it was thought it would bring them closer together and make them fight harder.

Also the person giving was not gay only the person receiving was. Oddly enough gay people were frowned upon. Also there were slaves in sparta (men and women) and the free people could own them.

One final point. There were also contests to see who could take the most severe flogging.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/26/2007 6:25:26 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

Jus to add some more to the topic. It was ok for the soldiers to have sex with each other as it was thought it would bring them closer together and make them fight harder.

Also the person giving was not gay only the person receiving was. Oddly enough gay people were frowned upon. Also there were slaves in sparta (men and women) and the free people could own them.

One final point. There were also contests to see who could take the most severe flogging.


Gay or homosexual is a post-industrialization concept; it has no place in the ancient world.

In Classical Athens receptive sexuality was frowned upon depending upon who did it and with whom. If you were female it wasn't frowned upon at all. If you were less powerful than the person penetrating you, also not frowned upon because you are merely following your role. The person most frowned upon from being a receptive partner in sex was the potential Athenian citizen, a teenage Athenian boy who had to play a complex game of being both the beloved of an adult male citizen and protecting his future status as his full equal. There are entire books devoted to looking at this.

As for sexual acts in Spartan we cannot even say the above because not enough sources survive that are from Spartans. I do know that for Spartan soldiers part of the reason for their might in battle (according to non-Spartan sources) was to show off for each other and for their lovers. They seemed to have age peer relationships too, rather unusual for the ancient Greek world but it would make sense given the military arrangement of barracks and units which seem to be organized by age group.

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/26/2007 6:59:09 AM   
Mustardseed


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From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaramelGoddess

Not only is it a comic book version, it's the director's perception of that comic book, so there are all sorts of distortions going on.


Actually, I'll make it even worse for you. I'm given to understand that Frank Miller based his comic book off of an entirely different movie about the 300 spartans. So, we have a movie based off of a comic book that was based off of a movie.

Yeah, I'm not too worried about accuracy here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious if anyone has watched it and the interaction between King Leonidas and the Queen.  At one point he looks to her before he "decides" to go to war and she nods her head most imperceptably but it is clear she grants him her okay.

( ... snip ... )

Anyone have any thoughts?


As we saw, the Queen had to stay behind and defend the King when he left. As co-rulers, his mess was her mess. He needed her support when he had his back turned, not her resentment. I feel that he sought her opinion less as his dominant and more as his co-ruler, vice-presisdent or some other equivalent.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/28/2007 9:09:07 PM   
cloudboy


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Dan Savage compared the Persians in the movie to a gay pride parade, an observation I found both funny and accurate.

Several critics consider 300 to be neo-con fantasy, the triumph of real men over fags, TVs and hermaphrodites, and the victory of Western civilization over the mystical, backward East.

The Persian army is an armed gay-pride parade, a threat to all things decent and, er, Greek. The king of the Spartans—among the most notorious boy-fuckers in all of ancient history—dismisses Athenian Greeks as weak-willed "philosophers and boy lovers." The Persian emperor? An eight-foot-tall black drag queen—mascara, painted-on eyebrows, pink lip gloss. Emperor RuPaul is positively obsessed with men kneeling in front of him. Why gay up the Persians? So that straight boys in the theater can identify with the Spartan king and his 300 soldiers—all of whom appear to have been recruited from and outfitted by the International Male catalog.

What isn't up for debate is the film's politics. The only times the Persian army doesn't look like a gay-pride parade in hell, it looks like a crowd of madly chanting Islamic militants. And if the Spartan king has to break the Spartan law to defend Spartan freedoms? Well, sometimes a king's gotta do what a king's gotta do. Because, as the queen of Sparta points out, freedom isn't free. And, yes, she uses exactly those words. George Bush is going to blow a load in his pants when he sees this movie.

Dan Savage

(in reply to TexasMaam)
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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/28/2007 10:01:27 PM   
subohioboy


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Status: offline 		well sparta was a military society and the men went away to war every spring and summer.  The women were left to control the helots and do much of the governing and running of day to day lives.  Compared to most places, women had a lot of power and their husbands did respect their thaughts.  Before the men went to war the women always told them with it or on it

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/28/2007 10:04:18 PM   
subohioboy


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Status: offline 		don't forget there is some evidence sparta was the first nation state to have a constitution.  Thats right folks even though it was most likely like the english constitution.  Don't go off and say they were a monarchy because monarchies can be constitutional monarchies ie the uk

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/30/2007 7:50:37 AM   
MsKatHouston


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From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		I saw the movie this week and was unimpressed.  I was, in fact, pretty bored.  Thank the gods for all those ripped guys who were a welcome distraction.  I guess the movie was just not my cup of tea.  I did, however, take special note of the scene in question.  To me, it seemed like he was not getting permission, per se as getting an agreement from his spouse who would be affected ggreatly by such a decision.  I found it was respectful and indicative of a caring and equitable relationship but not one where he was submissive to his queen.  That in itself, though, was certainly refreshing. 

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/30/2007 7:57:25 AM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		I saw "300" last weekend with one of my boys. 
My take on the relationship between Leonidas and Gorgo
is that they worked together as a team, with respect for
each other's abilities, responsibilities and opinions.

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/30/2007 8:18:26 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
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From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		*puts my geek hat on*
 
300 is guilty of some pretty brutal artistic lisence .. but then so are Herodotus/Plutarch or an other source people would like to cite for information about the Spartans .. plutarch - our main source for life as a free female in Sparta ws writing as an indulgent travel writer for over indulged romans who wanted to visit the Classical version of disneyland - hence all manner of hairbrained claims about childhood and feminity.
 
that said the glance between King and Queen where he seeks approval from her is interesting. Though no doubt the women of sparta enjoyed and were respected in greater freedoms than their Athenian counterparts we can only limit that generalisation to a comparison between archaic sparta and classical athens - where the bulk of surviving literature is concerned.
 
Women were the hub of the oikos (the home/family) and the oikos was the building block of the polis. Spartan men lived the bulk of their lives outside the oikos, women were mistresses of the oikos out of necessity, a home without a mistress would fall to ruin. When the spartan King seeks the approval of his Queen he is asserting the link that they working in unison to create the strength of the city. the spartans understood the power and wisdom that comes from a strong partnership of two opposite roles. no city can survive with mothers alone, no more than it can with just soldiers.
 
Some spartan poetry fragments mock the Athenians as weak because they cannot trust their women to even attend the markets and purchase slave to do a womans work for them. The spartans seem to be mocking the insecurity of men who refuse their women a free voice, as if the dulcet tones of a mere woman could rock the foundations of civilisation and so must be silenced to avoid calamity. - i think there is a lot in that, many i have met would benfit from pondering that idea
 
as a historian ... this film left an acrid taste in my mouth .. but as a woman ... *quivers* leather and knives always make me gooey 
 
*runs off to make myself a Gorgo toga*

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/30/2007 8:20:55 AM   
thetammyjo


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Status: offline 		Nice to meet another historian!


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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/30/2007 8:46:54 PM   
Rumtiger


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Status: offline 		I find it funny that its with this movie that I hear a shitload of bellyaching about historical innacuracy as a point to push negativity on the movie...I understand some degree of it with all movies like this, but its just funny I dident hear it as much when Gladiator or even Braveheart came out.

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/30/2007 9:04:31 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
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From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		greetings
 
I have been doing some research and found that perhaps in one way Spartan Women were submissive.  It seems there is some truth to the belief that Spartan Men raped their wives on the honeymoon.  Actually it was more of a prenubiltional test   A Spartan Man would phyiscally attack a propestive mate and  rape her.  If the Spartan Woman was successful in fending off the attack, no marriage.
 
Be Well
Nosathro

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

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