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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/31/2007 7:44:16 PM   
Rumtiger


Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		a question to the historians, something I heard about some time ago was that Spartans ate two pounds of meat a day, this true?

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/31/2007 8:16:50 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Well, Tammy Jo, there's just no accounting for taste.
Nosathro must be a bit weird; if you emailed ME I'd certainly engage in dialogue with thee!

Warm regards,

TexasMaam

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 3/31/2007 8:24:14 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Dan Savage compared the Persians in the movie to a gay pride parade, an observation I found both funny and accurate.

Several critics consider 300 to be neo-con fantasy, the triumph of real men over fags, TVs and hermaphrodites, and the victory of Western civilization over the mystical, backward East.

The Persian army is an armed gay-pride parade, a threat to all things decent and, er, Greek. The king of the Spartans—among the most notorious boy-fuckers in all of ancient history—dismisses Athenian Greeks as weak-willed "philosophers and boy lovers." The Persian emperor? An eight-foot-tall black drag queen—mascara, painted-on eyebrows, pink lip gloss. Emperor RuPaul is positively obsessed with men kneeling in front of him. Why gay up the Persians? So that straight boys in the theater can identify with the Spartan king and his 300 soldiers—all of whom appear to have been recruited from and outfitted by the International Male catalog.

What isn't up for debate is the film's politics. The only times the Persian army doesn't look like a gay-pride parade in hell, it looks like a crowd of madly chanting Islamic militants. And if the Spartan king has to break the Spartan law to defend Spartan freedoms? Well, sometimes a king's gotta do what a king's gotta do. Because, as the queen of Sparta points out, freedom isn't free. And, yes, she uses exactly those words. George Bush is going to blow a load in his pants when he sees this movie.

Dan Savage


lolololololololololololol
Funny!
TM

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 3:07:31 AM   
Rumtiger


Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		so....meat?

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 6:37:20 AM   
KaramelGoddess


Posts: 404
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		I'm not at work so I can not dive into a book and find you a source, but this is My informed opinion:
 
The Greek diet mainly consisted of fruit, vegetables and some grains (in the more fertile areas).  People who lived near the coastline ate lots of fish, obviously.  On festival days meat would be eaten, and of course animals were sacrificed to the gods/goddesses.  Since Greece is mainly surrounded by water the Greeks exported a great deal of their produce to neighboring countries as well - including animals.
 
I do recall reading that Spartans ate honey - copious amounts of it before going into battle.
 
I'm sure Tammyjo will be along with an answer for you as well.
 
With kind regard,
~Kara

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 6:55:34 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

a question to the historians, something I heard about some time ago was that Spartans ate two pounds of meat a day, this true?


I'll answer you as I answer my students when they first ask me questions like this.

How would we know this?

Lacking strong Spartan evidence in writing and as far as I know any physical evidence, such as bodies or cooking facilities we could test for the remains of meat, then we have to ask where the story we've heard comes from. They don't live near the coasts by and large so fish may have been difficult and expensive.

Is that source reliable? (This was the lecture I did on Wednesday in my own class actually as they start evaluating the sources for their research project).

We can compare it to what we do know about other diets in that part of the world at that time. Ancient people seem to have eaten meat rarely unless they were very upper class and what they ate might make a lot of us nauseated to just think about it or at least it does me. We should compare that to what we know about soldier's diets then and sadly given that Spartan was the most militant and least documented we are in sad shape there. Logic might suggest they'd eat more protein but that's our logic not necessarily theirs.

In other words, if you ask a historian a historical question they will give you interpretation of the evidence, if they are good they will talk about the evidence, if they are poor they will claim their intrepretation is fact.

From all the evidence I've ever seen on the subject of Spartans they do seem to have lived a different life style than most of the rest of the Greeks. They seem to be a military society focused on maintaining their control over the native population where they lived. They were both admired and hated by other Greeks but all agree they were excellent soldiers. Anything else would need to be cited and limited by the source and the biases inherent in that source.

It's one of those sad realities of history: we are truly limited by the evidence we have.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 4/1/2007 6:58:47 AM >

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 7:45:24 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
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Is it to ease the Spartan man into sex because he's used to male lovers? If that's the case then it ignores other reported behavior of Spartans that the men formed same sexual relationships with their age peers. The bride would be expecting a man of his own age, one with a bread, perhas evena hairy body -- the bride will not have that. Is it to re-enforce the also reported training of the Spartan man to be sneaky and to be able to sneak into a home and take what he wants without getting caught? Why the gender change then? Why not the sneaking in part?

So what I think as a historian is that Aristotle has taken a common marriage ritual (abduction) and combined it with either a rumor or a new story to address what he as an Athenian might see as the problematic gender and age relationships in Sparta. Greeks do this (heck all people do it) a lot: take a bit of the truth and combine it with something outrageous to try and point out how different another group is from our group.

I think that bluemonn is reasoning very very well when he points out that all Spartans submitted to their state -- maybe because it seems to be what I said in post #26. I wouldn't classify that as submissive as Fox is to me or anyone else is in BDSM. But that gets back to my point in post #25.
[/quote]

Dragging up what i remember about this subject from my Greek History studies i think the idea of the abduction ritual is part of the much bigger and entangled "coming of age" rituals ... the Spartan man was ready for a wife and the responsibility of his own family when he could snatch one. Again this would be in line with the idea of a Spartan male being sneaky etc.
 
I would also echo what TammyJo wisely says about truth mixed with fiction .. the abduction part of the marriage would fit well into other reliably established patterns of Spartan behaviour but the stagecrafted ritual of making the girl seem like a boy .. is more dubious. Looking at Aristotle -far removed from Archaic Spartan society in any number of social/geographic/intellectual/chronological ways - as a historian i was trained to smile quietly and take what he says with care. I cannot believe a society that in the late 8th Century BCE is producing lavish lyric poetry about the appeal delight and sexual power of a post-menarchic girl would then in all seriousness and gravity feel the need for her to be shaved of hair and dressed as a boy to make her sexual partner feel more comfortable. Spartn men would have been more than used to the naked female form ... if from no other than the Helot women or those they witnessed training.
 
Does it not sit more comfortably that the hair removal - actually quite a common global ritual when a girl passes into womanhood - is part of her "becoming" rather than his comfort. As for the dressing her as a boy, i have read as many "accounts" from dubious ancient historians (as in historians from ancient times lol "just cos they old they ain't right") that she would have been naked ... dressed in religious garb, her fathers cloak .. who can say .. with any kind of convincing and grounded evidence. .... certainly not aristotle.
 
anyway will be quiet now ... i spent too long down in library basements with Loebs littered about me ... i tend to forget how boring it can for everyone else *s*
 
but as a last ps ... i really enjoyed 300 i think it had some nice little nods to those in the audience who are sitting there "knowing better" just as did Gladiator, Alexander, Troy etc etc .. they are just films and they have the grace to show it and not pretend to be fact ... but it doesn't stop part of me wanting to take off my slippers at lob them at the screen lol

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 10:26:35 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		greetings
 
There seems to be a focus on what Aristotle wrote and is dismissed.  If you look at my post responding to those who question my statement, there are other referrences that echo the same Spartan marriage cermony (for lack of a better word).  This includes a Woman author who in her book also accounts for the aduction marriage by the Spartans, which for some reason is ignored by everyone.
 
Be Well
 
Nosathro

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 10:51:48 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Nosothro,

Since Spartan men were submissive to their women and since Gorean men so identify with Spartan men I wonder if that means all Gorean men are also submissive?

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 12:01:35 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		I just went and saw 300 with my sub this weekend. I wasn't impressed really, in fact I fell asleep for a few moments. The hack 'n slash along with the alpha male testerone flow just bored me.

There are submissive males in all walks of life (yep even in the "g" crowd), its just some are free enough to live it while others remain closeted.

~Lashra


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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 12:08:19 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		If they had to rape women to get a wife they must have been some undesirable fugly knuckle draggers. I don't admire men that rape women, I think they are honorless cowards. If most spartan women were like the Queen, then alot of guys had a good reason to stay single, they didnt want to run thru.

~Lashra


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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 12:14:26 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
What interests me is why and how they expected this imagery to work and on who.


What's that old saying? "Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the taste of the American people"? Something like that. I'll rent it when it comes out on DVD.

Bob

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 5:09:36 PM   
Rumtiger


Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		well hey, some people like a good mix of violence, monsters and tits, nothin wrong with that.

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 5:52:42 PM   
Mustardseed


Posts: 291
Joined: 5/27/2006
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

I find it funny that its with this movie that I hear a shitload of bellyaching about historical innacuracy as a point to push negativity on the movie...I understand some degree of it with all movies like this, but its just funny I dident hear it as much when Gladiator or even Braveheart came out.


I didn't hear boo about Gladiator, but the amount of groaning over Braveheart was so great among the social circles I frequented that I decided the film wasn't worthwhile. Several years later, I'm bumming around with a friend of mine who does SCA events and she mentioned something specific from Braveheart.

"Sorry, never saw it."

"You never saw Braveheart!?!"

"No, everyone said it was so historically inaccurate that it sucked. So I never bothered to rent it."

"B-but ... it's Braveheart!"

"Which you, if I remember correctly, even trashed."

"Well, yeah -- it wasn't historically accurate, but it's a great movie! You've got to see it!"


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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/1/2007 5:55:45 PM   
Rumtiger


Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		sometimes history gets in the way of a great story.

< Message edited by Rumtiger -- 4/1/2007 5:59:39 PM >

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

(in reply to Mustardseed)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/2/2007 6:22:26 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

greetings

There seems to be a focus on what Aristotle wrote and is dismissed. If you look at my post responding to those who question my statement, there are other referrences that echo the same Spartan marriage cermony (for lack of a better word). This includes a Woman author who in her book also accounts for the aduction marriage by the Spartans, which for some reason is ignored by everyone.

Be Well

Nosathro


I'm assuming she's either a classicist or a historian, but she might also be a non-scholar. Her book would be her intrepretation of the evidence.

I was asking about evidence.

Primary and secondary sources (or ancient versus modern sources) do not have the same value in academic circles. It can be more complicated than this especially the farther back in time you go when your evidence maybe only archaeological or it may be from one group talking about another with no direct evidence.

Maybe one day someone will discover a work from a Spartan who is writing about and speculating on or describing several Spartan customs in order to explain why they do what they do -- audience could be younger Spartans or it could be non-Spartans. Until then we need to be aware of biases from outsiders and weigh all interpretations.

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/10/2007 1:32:53 AM   
grmslave


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		No they were not sumbissive! I am from Greece and particulary from Sparta lol!
Spartans like other Greek ancients were mostly dom because it was the way of their societies.
Women were used to bear children and were living most of time at houses, they did not participate in social life a lot.
But, domination and sumbission exist from the very early ages of our civilisation, so I suppose there were maybe dom Women in Sparta or Athens and probably there were sub males but it is not as common as in our days.

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RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/10/2007 2:43:53 AM   
MissyRane


Posts: 1032
Joined: 5/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsKatHouston

I haven't seen it myself...I have not heard good things about it.  I'll catch it when it gets to cable :P


omg I'm so glad..I thought I was the only person on earth who hadn't seen it, and I've only heard good things about it (most from girls though) it's like...omg the movie's good it's fleeeeding in SIX PACKS!!!!!! you've gottttt to see it I mean omg the dudes are like wow!

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/10/2007 4:46:15 AM   
Rumtiger


Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Actually Missy, if you look a couple posts lower....

Thats right, you really are now offically the only person on Earth to not see it.

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

(in reply to MissyRane)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Are Spartan's Submissive? - 4/10/2007 6:16:36 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		(fast reply)

I did finally see it this passed Saturday.

Not impressed -- I tried really hard to not let the historian in me out but I was just annoyed by the portrayal of Sparta itself to an incredible degree. Why were the men show living with their wives? Where are the barracks that boys and men lived in? Why would boys who looked older than 6 running around the city especially with girls?

The battles got a bit tiresome after a while and Xerxes was, well, what the hell?

My husband liked it though he did say at one point "When did Sparta get a hole to hell placed in the center of it?"

But at least now I'll know what my students are talking about when one brings it up in a class or in an office hour.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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Profile   Post #: 80
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