RE: Animal Rights (Full Version)

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Magdalena156 -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:21:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Yes, it is untrue.  I think your doctor is on crack and is prejudiced against a vegetarian diet for whatever personal reason.  Talk to any professional and they'll tell you if you eat a balanced diet, there's no problem not eating meat.

I'm sorry, I know people who have been vegetarian or vegan for decades and are in great shape.  There are also vegetarian and vegan ATHLETES.  I can provide links, names, and data.

excuse me? Medical professional or random insultive poster in cm? Hmm let me think here, i think i'll go with the specialist who has trained to take care of dietary needs.


You're cute.  I think I'll go with the several professionals whom I know of who URGED me to go on a vegetarian diet and stay there. 

xthxbye


-m





missturbation -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:23:13 PM)

Thank you for the compliment [:D]




Magdalena156 -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:24:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Magdalena156

You're cute.  I think I'll go with the several professionals whom I know of who URGED me to go on a vegetarian diet and stay there. 



And that's my last post on this thread, because at this point it's going to turn into a flame war.  I unfortunately don't have much patience with stupidity and willful ignorance.  If you want to believe that meat is like totally necessary for you, great.  But don't try to say that it's a fact, because it isn't.

http://www.alphaomegafood.com/vegetarian_athletes.htm

With the above link and several other sources of information I could provide (just email me for them because at this point I don't have the patience with the people in this thread), I rest my case.


-m





sub4hire -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:27:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

It's not untrue. The problem here is that the nutritionists / dieticians come up with new we must eat and must not eats every week. I am in the middle of getting my um dietary advice at the moment, shes seeing a specialist who has stated catergorically she needs to eat meat to have a healthy balanced diet.


Really no clue what fighting has been going on in this thread.  I saw the above quote pop up when I signed on...so naturally I had to come here.

The above statement reads...every single week nutritionists somewhere don't know how to do their jobs.  So they come up with new theories each week saying we need meat and the next we don't need meet for a well balanced diet.
Well, vegetarians and vegans are very healthy and they don't need meat or meat products.  Nor are they generally overweight or have many of the issues meat eaters do.
There are other ways to get protein than eating meat.  I get it everyday...I rarely eat any form of meat.




Sinergy -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:27:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

quote:

Umm...calling bullshit again.  No one knows what the 'maximum oil output' for the world is and if we are near it.  Do you count the oil sands of Canada (estimated to hold the same amount of oil as Saudia Arabia) in your calculations?

 
I've not seen anything to indicate you can get more energy out of the oil sands than you put into them.  If I remember correctly, the Canadians are using natural gas to extract the oil from the oil sands, and they are putting more energy into them than they get out.  This only works when the price of natural gas is low and the price of oil is high.
 
Your right that no one knows exactly when peak oil production will occur.  However, BP a few years ago was predicting peak oil output to occur in 2010.  Most estimates seem to indicate we are very close.  New technology and higher oil prices might delay peak output.  However, demand is increasing at such a fast pace that we are probably looking at years rather than decades until peak output.


Good post, Tristan.

It is like my response to whatsisname touting the panacea of hydrogen power to run automobiles.

The question is the differential or delta between energy required to gain a fuel source and the energy one gets from the fuel source.  Canadian and Alaskan tar sands are lovely, but they require a lot more processing to make gasoline than the relatively pure crude oil pumped from Iraq and Saudi Arabia.  So the problem then becomes can we produce gas for 13 cents a gallon and sell it for 3 dollars a gallon, or do we need to spend 1.50 a gallon to produce the oil.

Or, do we spend 4 dollars a gallon to produce something nobody will purchase for more than 2 dollars a gallon.

There might be more oil in Canada than there is under Iraq.  It might cost so much to extract that we end up paying 123 dollars a gallon to use it.

Most people seem incapable of utilizing a cost/benefit analysis of a situation to determine whether it is worth the effort to do something.

True believers crack me up.

Sinergy




Tristan -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:28:39 PM)

quote:

excuse me? Medical professional or random insultive poster in cm? Hmm let me think here, i think i'll go with the specialist who has trained to take care of dietary needs.

 
You can find all kinds of doctors that promote all kinds of wacky diets and treatments, and yet some things really are better for you than others.  There is lots of information out there.  It's difficult to sort through the bias, but I think it can be done.  I would not trust one source be it a doctor or website. 




missturbation -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:32:14 PM)

I'm not saying vegetarians are unhealthy per se. What i'm saying is that nutritionists reccomend we eat all of the five main food groups to have a healthy balanced diet. My um is under a dietician at the moment and has been told she must eat meat.
Every week we are told this and that food wise is bad for us and i know very unhealthy vegetarians and over weight ones. Mind i have to say the UK doesnt have quite the obesity problem that America has yet, but its only a matter of time.




redpetals -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:33:10 PM)

If you are going to get what you need in protein youl'l be eating lots of beans ,and then you will be  part of the flatulence problem!!!!
Seriously..I believe we are wasting time trying to prevent some animals from going  extinct.
Especially when in doing so  we are hurting  group  of humans.
It's twisted and I think disconnected of any group of people to put animals"rights" before their own kind's rights.
And I know there are times when humans need to intervene to prevent some nut from hurting /tortureing animals..if for any reason  ..simply the fact that there's proof that people who practise torture on animals inevitably graduate to humans.
Extinction is natures way..its inevitable.
When we lose a duck or a goose here..we eat it.
Could I butcher one of my animals?
Hell no.
I raise geese as watch dogs..
You can not stop the meat trade.
As many horrors as there are ..trust me..old horses and cows have it better when they have a short ride to Canada or Whyalusing Pa and then they are out of their misery.
If any do gooders want to help animals then work for faster cleaner kills.
Otherwize you are swimming against a current you can not fight forever.






juliaoceania -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:33:48 PM)

quote:

Well, vegetarians and vegans are very healthy and they don't need meat or meat products.  Nor are they generally overweight or have many of the issues meat eaters do.
There are other ways to get protein than eating meat.  I get it everyday...I rarely eat any form of meat.


I have less weight problems when I eat lots of animal protien like lean steak, turkey, and chicken. Protien feeds muscles. Yes, of course there are other sources of protien in the world besides meat.. but I would like you to take a look in your mouth and tell me what type of dentition you see there? That of an omnivore. In other words humankind has been eating meat and veggies for a very long time. I am speaking from a human evolutionary perspective, the hunter/gatherer diet is various, well diversified, animal protien in prized. In the fossil record human beings were far healthier prior to the agricultural revolution than they were after it. Just stating what we know.




missturbation -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:33:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

quote:

excuse me? Medical professional or random insultive poster in cm? Hmm let me think here, i think i'll go with the specialist who has trained to take care of dietary needs.

 
You can find all kinds of doctors that promote all kinds of wacky diets and treatments, and yet some things really are better for you than others.  There is lots of information out there.  It's difficult to sort through the bias, but I think it can be done.  I would not trust one source be it a doctor or website. 


I'm trusting a variety of sources. The orignal doctor we saw, the specialist we are now seeing and various web sites which all reccomend the five food groups must be eaten to maintain a healthy diet.




MzMia -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:39:32 PM)

Hiya missturbation, even though I don't eat meat, I normally feel we all can read and do what is best for each of us.
I never PLANNED to become a vegetarian!  First I stopped eating poultry when I read that the chickens are being
pumped up with hormones, etc.  So one thing led to another for me!
I will be the first to admit, that it is not easy to get enough protein without eating meat.
I am very vigilant about this and have to think about what I am eating every day.
I am not sure I would raise a totally vegetarian child, I would probably try to get some certified organic meat {and pay
through the ass for it}.  I want my child to make their own decisions about whether or not to eat meat.
**But dang it I will give my 2 cents worth on it for free**




Tristan -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:40:57 PM)

quote:

Billions of animals are alive due to our advances in science and animal husbandry.  Living in a small space doesn't necessarily mean the animal is depressed and suicidal .  Your anthropomorphism of an animal's situation is just that: assuming you know what the animal is thinking. 


Google it.  This is something that you need to see for yourself.  This is not something that can be argued.  I don't think you will have any doubt about the magnitude of suffering if you google it.

quote:

For all we know the animal is glad to be alive, and just annoyed that he has 37,000 brothers and sisters smelling his ass.  And as for being skinned alive, in the wild they are eaten alive.  So what?  Why does death have to be clean and neat and quick for an animal?  How long does a gazelle live while a lion is eating it?  Nature is one cruel bitch, and 'civilized' society should not forget that to put food on the table, one has to kill it - and society shouldn't put too high a hurdle to accomplish that end. 

 
True, but do we want to treat our neighbors this way?  If we don't like their fence, why not kill them and take the fence down?  And if we don't want to treat our neighbors this way, why would we do anything else?  Nature is a "cruel bitch".  Doesn't she give us license to do as we please?
 
If we decide not to treat our neighbors this way, then who else should we not treat this way?  Those with different skin color, a different religion, or a different genetic code?  Where do we draw the line? and why?




Invictus754 -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:42:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

quote:

Umm...calling bullshit again.  No one knows what the 'maximum oil output' for the world is and if we are near it.  Do you count the oil sands of Canada (estimated to hold the same amount of oil as Saudia Arabia) in your calculations?

 
I've not seen anything to indicate you can get more energy out of the oil sands than you put into them.  If I remember correctly, the Canadians are using natural gas to extract the oil from the oil sands, and they are putting more energy into them than they get out.  This only works when the price of natural gas is low and the price of oil is high.
 
Your right that no one knows exactly when peak oil production will occur.  However, BP a few years ago was predicting peak oil output to occur in 2010.  Most estimates seem to indicate we are very close.  New technology and higher oil prices might delay peak output.  However, demand is increasing at such a fast pace that we are probably looking at years rather than decades until peak output.


People have been saying we will run out of oil / we are at maximum output for 100 years.  Why believe it now?
quote:

Energy analyst and historian Daniel Yergin has heard these arguments before. He counts five different periods when the world feared it was running out of oil. The first was in the 1880s. Such fears usually gain traction when oil prices are high. But each time, Yergin says, the dire warnings have proved premature.
"The last time before this time was in the 1970s, when people thought we were going to fall off the oil mountain and live in an age of permanent shortage. Since then, world supplies have increased 60 percent. I don't see why we're at the end of technology now, or why it would be finished now," Yergin says. 

Yergin's company, Cambridge Energy Research Associates, has done a field-by-field analysis of oil deposits around the world. He expects producers can keep pumping more oil for the next 20 to 30 years.
That's not to say it will be easy to produce that much oil, Yergin says. But wars, hurricanes and a shortage of trained engineers pose a bigger challenge than how much oil is in the ground.
"There are ample supplies beneath the surface of the planet to have significant growth in oil supply for quite a number of years," Yergin says. "The technology is there, the resources are there. But the real question is what happens above ground."





missturbation -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:44:50 PM)

To be honest i'm probably less healthy than any vegan, vegetarian or meat eater etc etc because i very rarely eat. I sure don't think there is anything wrong with being a vegetarian or whatever peoples eating choices are.




Tristan -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:46:33 PM)

quote:

People have been saying we will run out of oil / we are at maximum output for 100 years.  Why believe it now?

 
People were saying we would never run out of whales either. 




Invictus754 -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:50:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

quote:

Billions of animals are alive due to our advances in science and animal husbandry.  Living in a small space doesn't necessarily mean the animal is depressed and suicidal .  Your anthropomorphism of an animal's situation is just that: assuming you know what the animal is thinking. 


Google it.  This is something that you need to see for yourself.  This is not something that can be argued.  I don't think you will have any doubt about the magnitude of suffering if you google it.

The magnitude of "suffering" is not an issue with me.  As long as food is provided by these megolithic small-farm busting mega-companies, whether a chicken has a beak or not and is completely unhappy about it is not an issue.  I think if food were scarce, you would be singing a different tune.

quote:

For all we know the animal is glad to be alive, and just annoyed that he has 37,000 brothers and sisters smelling his ass.  And as for being skinned alive, in the wild they are eaten alive.  So what?  Why does death have to be clean and neat and quick for an animal?  How long does a gazelle live while a lion is eating it?  Nature is one cruel bitch, and 'civilized' society should not forget that to put food on the table, one has to kill it - and society shouldn't put too high a hurdle to accomplish that end. 

 
True, but do we want to treat our neighbors this way?  If we don't like their fence, why not kill them and take the fence down?  And if we don't want to treat our neighbors this way, why would we do anything else?  Nature is a "cruel bitch".  Doesn't she give us license to do as we please?

If we decide not to treat our neighbors this way, then who else should we not treat this way?  Those with different skin color, a different religion, or a different genetic code?  Where do we draw the line? and why?
Neighbors?  WTF? I don't consider animals 'neighbors'.  They are animals.
Whoever is in control draws the line, obviously.  If I ever think that Peta will ever get the upper hand, that is when I become the 'unsilent majority'.
And how did you jump from animals to religion and skin color?  Do you know what 'non sequitur' means?  Let's stay with comparing apples to apples.




MzMia -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:51:06 PM)

LOL, you know what?  I have to really watch what I eat more than when I ate meat!
Many people do not realize that all vegetarians do not just sit and eat veggies all day.

I have to watch my carb intake like hell, and I gained weight when I stopped eating meat!
I realized years ago, it would be easier to keep my weight down eating a lot of meat {Atkins anyone?}.

But I am not going back, actually I eat my veggie protein, watch my carbs, and fight...ugh.
I rather have the extra 10 pounds and be at my current size, then eat a lot of meat be skinny and
be battling cancer.  I am not saying that eating meat contributes to cancer, but I am saying I will
just keep the 10 pounds.




Invictus754 -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:53:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

quote:

People have been saying we will run out of oil / we are at maximum output for 100 years.  Why believe it now?

 
People were saying we would never run out of whales either. 


And you see how important they are to the US economy...have you seen how the price of blubber has skyrocketed with this whale shortage?




domiguy -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:54:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

quote:

People have been saying we will run out of oil / we are at maximum output for 100 years.  Why believe it now?

 
People were saying we would never run out of whales either. 


What! We are running out of whales?.....How will I light my house?  Thank God my lamps also run on dodo bird oil.




Tristan -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 8:56:50 PM)

quote:

Neighbors?  WTF? I don't consider animals 'neighbors'.  They are animals.
Whoever is in control draws the line, obviously. 


Was this not exactly what was said of african americans?  Do you believe what said in the days of slavery?  If not, why?  Where do you draw the line...skin pigment, religion, genetic code, suffering?




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