RE: Animal Rights (Full Version)

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Invictus754 -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 9:01:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

quote:

Neighbors?  WTF? I don't consider animals 'neighbors'.  They are animals.
Whoever is in control draws the line, obviously. 

Was this not exactly what was said of african americans?  Do you believe what said in the days of slavery?  If not, why?  Where do you draw the line...skin pigment, religion, genetic code, suffering?


Hmm...let's see...were you alive 200 years ago to know "what was being said in the days of slavery"?  Or are you just parroting something someone else wants you to believe?  And why should animals be compared to humans?
 
I don't draw the line.  However, my opinion is that animals are for eating and if we can find a way to do it most profitably with the smallest cost involved - that is the way to do it.



Tristan -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 9:08:20 PM)

quote:

Hmm...let's see...were you alive 200 years ago to know "what was being said in the days of slavery"?  Or are you just parroting something someone else wants you to believe?  And why should animals be compared to humans?
 
I don't draw the line.  However, my opinion is that animals are for eating and if we can find a way to do it most profitably with the smallest cost involved - that is the way to do it.

 
It sounds like you draw the line based on economics and convienence, which I think has been the norm throughout history.  I'm not saying that is right or wrong, I'm just asking where does one draw the line and why. 



MzMia -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 9:33:56 PM)

One question I want answered is this.
So many meat eaters and meat lovers also have domestic pets.
In many countries people EAT dogs and cats.
Why do we pick certain animals and make them pets and eat the other ones?
I happen to adore pigs and have always wanted one for a pet!
Save Porky the pig, damnit.



FangsNfeet -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 9:51:55 PM)

This issue is based on "If you can't live free in the wild, then you shouldn't live at all."

Newt, the baby polar bear, was destened to naturaly die along with his sibling when the mother had abandon them. It was only by chance that a "human" found Newt and placed him in a zoo.

As for the whales and the Navy, it's not a double standard. Nature was killing the Polar Bear, Humans are killing the whales. The ideal goes along something like this:

For some reason, Human Interference equals evil. When Nature kills an animal, it's good. When Man kills and animal, it's bad. When Nature saves an animal, it's good. When Man saves an animal, it's bad. Humans must obey the law of Star Trek "Thou must not interfer with the life nor social suroundings of another species." 

Little does anyone ever realize that humans are just as natural and apart of nature as every other living being.



domiguy -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 10:02:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet



Little does anyone ever realize that humans are just as natural and apart of nature as every other living being.


Right.... it it is "natural" for us to pollute.... Hunt indiscriminantly until  a species is extinct or nearly wiped out....It's natural for us to drain wetlands when we know better...We do have certain choices...And unfortunately we have not done a good job at curbing our "natural" tendencies of destruction.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Animal Rights (3/21/2007 10:25:25 PM)

Great topics, specially given it's relevance to my own thoughts at this point in time.

On the idea that humans are "above" animals and somehow more civilized- we have people who yell on cyber forums because they feel insulted.  See what happens to them when you take away all sources of ready made food.

On the idea that we need farming- to sustain our current numbers, maybe.  But I completely agree with Sinergy in that there's no reason to be having the numbers of babies that we are currently having.  I personally think that very few people have a calling to be a parent and raise children. 

While I would prefer that humanity wakes up and starts choosing to raise people on a highly aware level, until then we're just making more of a problem for ourselves and farming is just a drug to cure that symptom.

Finally, I myself am fairly wishy washy on animal rights.  I fully understand that if I researched the issues and saw firsthand what was going on, I'd have to become a vegetarian and do all sorts of other life changes to accommodate that.  But I like eating easy meat and wearing leather- so I do.  I also kill bugs and lobsters and spiders and while I'd feel remorse over running over a squirrel, I wouldn't think I'd done anything "wrong" about it.

However, I am very deeply against animal mistreatment- not feeding a pet, putting them in prolonged pain, that sort of thing.

I went to my first rodeo yesterday and it caused me to really think about how I feel on this issue.  I can't deny the skills of all the cowboys there, but the aggression and use that the animals were put through very much disturbed me. 

See above on my wishy washy acceptance of ignorance.

I suppose what I don't understand is how everyone always goes to extremes- it's either PETA or kill em all, who the hell cares!

Can't we care for and respect animals on the green planet without suggesting that we live in the grass with them?



FirmhandKY -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 12:14:38 AM)

Very rational response.

FirmKY



Vendaval -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 12:42:57 AM)

Uh....there was a lady in my neighborhood back in the day,
who did just that.  Truly a frightful assault on the eyes!  [&:]



quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Ok now i know what to send you for your birthday. Dyed pink and with a big bow on it [:D]



Vendaval -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 12:47:49 AM)

Of course the little yapping dogs serve a purpose for the elderly.
The can help them find their lost dentures and eyeglasses in
the dark!  [8D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

OK...Here is a good question?  Is there some sort of  mandatory  requirement for old women to purchase one of these nasty, ornery cock sucking dogs or are they distributed by the Government?  Obviously the Grim Reaper can cue in to their non-stop yapping.... These creatures are a harbinger of death...Fuck them all!


They come in the mail to AARP members along with free samples of Depends.

Sinergy



Rumtiger -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 12:49:29 AM)

I dont much care for rodeos either, I mean tying a rope around a bull's genitals and then pulling, what the fuck?

I'd prefer a bullfight over a rodeo anyday

In a bullfight the bull can actually kill the object of his anger much more easily, one charge and its all over, no thightening a rope on the balls. Though they do stick the bull with those sticks and thats pretty messed up.



Vendaval -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 12:50:30 AM)

But what about the cavemen in the Geico commercials?
Where do you think they came from?   [8D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

It was found by archeaologists that Neanderthal co-existed with modern man, they were thought to be just humans that evolved but indeed they cross-bred with modern man,


There is no proof that Neanderthals cross bred with humans.  Of course you can argue that they did and there is no proof they did not.  The best statement is we don't know if they did. 



SusanofO -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 12:51:58 AM)

Some of my best freinds are Neanderthals. And  - I'll adopt the cute lil' polar bear cub myself. He is just too cute for words. I'll pay for all of his food, and remain anonymous. Nobody will be able to locate me, or cub Knut, and they'll all just shut up and quit arguing about it, then. [:)]

- Susan



Tristan -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 3:36:28 AM)

quote:

but I would like you to take a look in your mouth and tell me what type of dentition you see there? That of an omnivore.


There is no doubt that we are omnivores.  We can eat hamburgers or french fries all day, but do we want too.  The great thing about being an omnivore is that we can chose from a wide variety of healthy foods.  Our choice of food and our methods of food production have a great impact on our planet, other people, and animals. 

We have become detached from our food production, and as a result, are unaware of the effects of our choices.  We hire minimum wage agra workers to do things I think most of us would never do ourselves.



MzMia -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 4:15:07 AM)

I know I am that person yelling about not eating meat.
I think I said 3 times, everyone needs to make their own choices.
I also eat a lot more than pre-packaged soy foods, I get my protein
from a lot of other area's besides these foods.
I thought about this and planned what I would eat YEARS ago.
If I ever end up in a survior situation, I will probably eat whatever I
have to, including eating you.
But until that day comes? I will not worry about not eating meat,
now let me get back to these delicious veggie sausages.



Tristan -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 4:21:16 AM)

quote:

Seriously..I believe we are wasting time trying to prevent some animals from going  extinct.
Especially when in doing so  we are hurting  group  of humans.
It's twisted and I think disconnected of any group of people to put animals"rights" before their own kind's rights.


One of the main reasons for the endangered species act was to preserve the environment for humans.  The idea was that we could use species as indicators for when we were creating too much environmental damage. 

There really is no conflict between treating animals well and human rights.  These are often complimentary of each other. 



thompsonx -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 6:10:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Invictus754

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

quote:

People have been saying we will run out of oil / we are at maximum output for 100 years.  Why believe it now?
 
People were saying we would never run out of whales either. 


And you see how important they are to the US economy...have you seen how the price of blubber has skyrocketed with this whale shortage?

Invictus754:
Clearly you have no clue as to the value of whale oil.  Perhaps a little research might be in order...I will give you a hint; it is no longer use for lamp oil.
On the other hand we have discovered a vegetable alternative to whale oil.  It is called jojoba. Jojoba is raised comercially for the oil that is extracted from the bean of this plant.  It is highly profitable and cultivation is relatively easy in the proper environment.
thompson



missturbation -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 6:55:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

I'd prefer a bullfight over a rodeo anyday

In a bullfight the bull can actually kill the object of his anger much more easily, one charge and its all over, no thightening a rope on the balls. Though they do stick the bull with those sticks and thats pretty messed up.


The village my mum lives in in Spain and also those around it have annual bull fighting tournaments. A traditional bull fight is divided into three tercios (parts). In the first picadores on horse back injure the bulls with spears. In the second  three pairs of banerillos (short spears) are placed in the bulls back further injuring it. In the third the bull fighter angers the bull with the red cloak and finally stabs the bull hopefully through the heart for instant death.
What they don't tell you is that the bull is drugged before the fight to confuse and disorientate it so the bull fighter has a better chance of pleasing the crowd with his skills. 
Now prey tell me how one charge and its all over? 



thompsonx -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 8:06:05 AM)

I am an aficionado.  It is my opinion, and that of many others, that we go to watch the matador weigh his talent against his courage:  as may be evinced by continualy passing the bull in the same direction and by passing the bull with your body against the barradia and up on the step.
All aficionados decry the use of stupifying drugs, horn shaving and such other practices.  The corrida is not a contest between man and bull but between a man and his fears.  The bull is simply the instrument by which the ballance between courage and talent is measured.  Los Picadores are the device that changes the scale of the measuring device from kilos to grams.
When all that seperates a matador's balls from the bulls horns is the thickness of his knickers and he struts around the arena with the front of his knickers ripped open and his balls intact it brings everyone in the stands to their feet.  Of course I have seen the matador misjudge the bull by an inch or so and it is the bull who is doing the strutting with a matador for a hatband.  When your courage  exceed your talent the bull wins.
thompson



missturbation -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 10:30:51 AM)

However you look at it, it is cruel and barbaric. I've seen dead bulls loaded on to trucks and live ones left to bleed death slowly in a heap because the matador missed the bulls heart with a sword.
I hope you never have to see the preperation of the bulls and the aftermath of the bull fights at first hand as i have done.



thompsonx -> RE: Animal Rights (3/22/2007 11:42:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

However you look at it, it is cruel and barbaric.
I spent more time than I care to admit in the military...I am not unaware of what is cruel and barbaric.
 
 I've seen dead bulls loaded on to trucks and live ones left to bleed death slowly in a heap because the matador missed the bulls heart with a sword.
Typically when that happens the bulls throat is cut and he beeds to death quite quickly.

I hope you never have to see the preperation of the bulls and the aftermath of the bull fights at first hand as i have done.
That is what being an aficionado means.  You are aware that the bulls are always(by tradition) given to the orphanage.
The corrida like BDSM is not for everyone.
thompson



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