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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 10:16:50 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Whatever ... ha-ha!!!

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 10:20:45 PM   
juliaoceania


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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		?

I do not think that it would be funny, but we all have our own particular sense of humor... unless you think taking Iran would be easier than what we have thus far experienced in Iraq? Iran has a real military, Saddam really had hardly any defense at all. I thought I would point that out.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 10:33:23 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		You can point out whatever you want.
 
Iran has a military designed to fight against the Iraqi army, who had limited air capability. Against the air assets of the United States, they would be helpless.
 
Your hatred of war, blinds you to the absolute fact that it's something that the United States is very good at. I hate war also, but can recognize reality for what it is.
 
We will always differ in that julia (which is fine, really). You are a radical, self proclaimed. Me ... I just live here, and have no problem accepting things as they are.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 10:36:28 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Do we really want to get bogged down in a third Middle Eastern country, though?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 10:37:45 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Ok Caitlyn, if you believe that we are good at conducting war, tell me why we have seemingly lost two out of three of the last wars we have fought? It is not military capability that we lack, it is the fact that people who do not want to cooperate with occupation tend to be hard to occupy. Iraq had over a decade of sanctions, they had problems before we even invaded. Now you may think that Iran would be a breeze to beat, we cannot claim victory in either Afghanistan or Iraq... and you think we would be successful against Iran? I do not possibly see how without at least a draft.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 10:39:14 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Do we really want to get bogged down in a third Middle Eastern country, though?


Only a crazy person would commit to another front in the ME, it would be sheer and utter insanity

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 10:39:31 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Your hatred of war, blinds you to the absolute fact that it's something that the United States is very good at.


Actually, we are kinda piss poor at it, once all the wall of metal is spent.

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 10:40:41 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Your hatred of war, blinds you to the absolute fact that it's something that the United States is very good at.


Actually, we are kinda piss poor at it, once all the wall of metal is spent.

Ron



Yes, we did not do well in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan... just sayin

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 10:43:30 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		It would have helped had  them insurgents had the fuckin foresight to plant a couple trees in that arrid and barren motherfucker, would have made the napalm trick work out.

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 11:03:18 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Sir, with all due respect, this former soldier (1974-1987), wonders where you are getting your information about the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), that you referenced here, other than from a Hollywood movie. 

Having served honorably for nearly 12 years, i am here to tell you that nowhere in the statutes of military justice or in any contract or oath taken by any military member does it require, nor could it require members of the Armed Services to give up our Freedom of Speech, a right granted to all citizens, including military members and  protected by the articles of our Constitution. 

Yes, Sir, military men and women have the right to speak freely, so long as it is not disrespectful or contemptuous toward a superior officer, which is required for maintaining order and discipline. 

"Disrespectful behavior is that which detracts from the respect due the authority and person of a superior commissioned officer. It may consist of acts or language, however expressed, and it is immaterial whether they refer to the superior as an officer or as a private individual. Disrespet by words may be conveyed by abusive epithets or other contemptuous or denunciatory language.Disrespect by acts includes neglecting the customary salute, or showing a marked disdain, indifference, insolence, impertinence, undue familiarity, or other rudeness in the presence of the superior officer."

A military member can participate in political activities, including giving political speeches, while off duty and while in civilian clothes, not in uniform and not as an "official representative" of the military, but as a private citizen.  That is a right that belongs to all citizens, including the military, and can not be taken away.

The military is made of a cross-section of our society and every political ideology that is found in our society is found in the military and private conversations among military members and with others will reflect a braod range of opinions about every topic, without censure or fear of punishment for speaking freely.  Most soldiers are most concerned with getting the mission done as well as they can and with the fewest casualties as possible than they are with what's going on in the circus of politics. 

Here is a list of punitive actions covered under the UCMJ (notably missing from this list is the crime of speaking freely, because it's not a crime)

Article 77 -Principals
Article 78 -Accessory after the fact
Article 79 -Conviction of lesser included offenses
Article 80 -Attempts
Article 81 -Conspiracy
Article 82 -Solicitation
Article 83 -Fraudulent enlistment, appointment, or separation
Article 84 -Effecting unlawful enlistment, appointment, or separation
Article 85 -Desertion
Article 86 - Absence without leave (AWOL)
Article 87 - Missing movement
Article 88 - Contempt toward officials
Article 89 - Disrespect toward a superior commissioned officer
Article 90 - Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
Article 91 - Insubordinate conduct toward warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer
Article 92 -Failure to obey order or regulation
Article 93 - Cruelty and maltreatment
Article 94 --Mutiny and sedition
Article 95 --Resistance, flight, breach of arrest, and escape
Article 96 --Releasing prisoner without proper authority
Article 97 --Unlawful detention
Article 98 --Noncompliance with procedural rules
Article 99 --Misbehavior before the enemy
Article 100 --Subordinate compelling surrender
Article 101 --Improper use of countersign
Article 102 --Forcing a safeguard
Article 103 --Captured or abandoned property
Article 104 --Aiding the enemy
Article 105 --Misconduct as a prisoner
Article 106 --Spies
Article 106a --Espionage
Article 107 --False official statements
Article 108 --Military property of the United States--sale, loss, damage, destruction, or wrongful disposition
Article 109 --Property other than military property of the United States--waste, spoilage, or destruction
Article 110 --Improper hazarding of vessel
Article 111 -Drunken or reckless operation of vehicle, aircraft, or vessel
Article 112 --Drunk on duty
Article 112a --Wrongful use, possession, etc., of controlled substances
Article 113 --Misbehavior of sentinel or lookout
Article 114 --Dueling
Article 115 --Malingering
Article 116 --Riot or breach of peace
Article 117 --Provoking speeches or gestures
Article 118 --Murder
Article 119 --Manslaughter
Article 120 --Rape and carnal knowledge
Article 121 --Larceny and wrongful appropriation
Article 122 --Robbery
Article 123 --Forgery
Article 123a --Making, drawing, or uttering check, draft, or order without sufficient fundsArticle 124 --Maiming
Article 125 --Sodomy
Article 126 --Arson
Article 127 --Extortion
Article 128 --Assault
Article 129 --Burglary
Article 130 --Housebreaking
Article 131 --Perjury
Article 132 --Frauds against the United States
Article 133 --Conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman
Article 134 --General article
Article 134-1-- Abusing public animal
Article 134-2--Adultery
Article 134-3--Assault--indecent
Article 134-4--Assault--with intent to commit murder, voluntary manslaughter, rape, robbery, sodomy, arson, burglary, or housebreaking
Article 134-5--Bigamy
Article 134-6--Bribery and graft
Article 134-7--Burning with intent to defraud
Article 134-8--Check, worthless, making and uttering--by dishonorably failing to maintain funds
Article 134-9--Cohabitation, wrongful
Article 134-10--Correctional custody--offenses against
Article 134-11--Debt, dishonorably failing to pay
Article 134-12--Disloyal statements
Article 134-13--Disorderly conduct, drunkenness
Article 134-14--Drinking liquor with prisoner
Article 134-15--Drunk prisoner
Article 134-16--Drunkenness--incapacitation for performance of duties through prior wrongful indulgence in intoxicating liquor or any drug
Article 134-17--False or unauthorized pass offenses
Article 134-18--False pretenses, obtaining services under
Article 134-19--False swearing
Article 134-20--Firearm, discharging--through negligence
Article 134-21--Firearm, discharging--willfully, under such circumstances as to endanger human life
Article 134-22--Fleeing scene of accident
Article 134-23--Fraternization
Article 134-24--Gambling with subordinate
Article 134-25--Homicide, negligent
Article 134-1--Impersonating a commissioned, warrant, noncommissioned, or petty officer, or an agent or official
Article 134-26--Indecent acts or liberties with a child
Article 134-27--Indecent exposure
Article 134-28--Indecent language
Article 134-29--Indecent acts with another
Article 134-30--Jumping from vessel into the water
Article 134-31--Kidnapping
Article 134-32--Mail: taking, opening, secreting, destroying, or stealing
Article 134-33--Mails: depositing or causing to be deposited obscene matters in
Article 134-34--Misprision of serious offense
Article 134-35--Obstructing justice
Article 134-36--Wrongful interference with an adverse administrative proceeding
Article 134-37--Pandering and prostitution
Article 134-38--Parole, Violation of
Article 134-39--Perjury: subornation of
Article 134-40--Public record: altering, concealing, removing, mutilating, obliterating, or destroying
Article 134-41--Quarantine: medical, breaking
Article 134-42--Reckless Endangerment
Article 134-43--Requesting commission of an offense
Article 134-44--Restriction, breaking
Article 134-45--Seizure: destruction, removal, or disposal of property to prevent
Article 134-46--Self-injury without intent to avoid service
Article 134-47--Sentinel or lookout: offenses against or by
Article 134-48--Soliciting another to commit an offense
Article 134-49--Stolen property: knowingly receiving, buying, concealing
Article 134-50--Straggling
Article 134-51--Testify: wrongful refusal
Article 134-52--Threat or hoax: bomb
Article 134-53--Threat, communicating
Article 134-54--Unlawful entry
Article 134-55--Weapon: concealed, carrying
Article 134-56--Wearing unauthorized insignia, decoration, badge, ribbon, device, or lapel button


Respectfully,
slave joy
Owned property of Master David


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

This report matches some of what the person I know that is actually over there, has to say.


As Anthony Swofford pointed out in Jarhead, a soldier on active duty has signed a contract and is not at liberty to speak freely.  It is pointed out to said soldier that failure to speak the line provided to them by their military commanders is technically an act of treason.  This is a crime under the UCMJ that is punishable by death.

Go ahead and believe what an embedded reporter and an active duty soldier say about the war.

Sinergy


< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 3/23/2007 11:05:32 PM >

_____________________________

Don't ask yourself what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive. ~Dr. Howard Thurman

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 11:06:36 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Do we really want to get bogged down in a third Middle Eastern country, though?


I'll answer you both.
 
No, we don't want to get involved in Iran ... but, how is understanding that Iran is militarily backwards and would be no threat to the United States, suggesting that we desire to go to war?
 
Answer ... it doesn't.
 
Likewise ... the desire to avoid war with Iran, doesn't suddenly make them a major military threat. Julia said, Iran has a "real military" (her words) which quite frankly, is complete bullshit. Their Air Force is made up of Vietnam vintage American aircraft, with few spare parts. A third of their armor dates from the Korean war, and most of the rest is Vietnam vintage. The air defense system is built around a missile that hasn't shot down an aircraft since the 1973 Arab-Israeli war. About the only modern weapon they have, is the Moskit, which doesn't have even close to the range it would need to hit U.S. Navy warships. Iran is militarily backwards, to say the least. Could you imagine using their "human wave" tactics, with B-52's and B-2's flying overhead?
 
As far as losing the last three wars ... if julia wants to declare Afghanistan and Iran already lost, that is her right. I don't agree, and would point out that if she is as accurate about that, as she is about the Iranian military, we will be in fine shape indeed.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 11:09:06 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Let me chime in for a moment...the reporter in question did an interview with NPR back in August of 2005...I haven't heard  nor read the transcripts  of this interview nor have probably any of you...That being said, I find the person who critiqued the interview to be of relevance simply because if she is saying the same story in 2005 that she is saying today that it would lead one to believe that she has possibly lost her perspective on this topic......That is why the people on this site that you would expect to trumpet this interview have done so... And the people who have doubts over the war have questioned the rationale of her stand.

There is another link which talks about the political views of the majority of the troops tend to be to the right (didn't bother listing)...Which makes sense since everyone who has joined has made it their choice.  However you will never see an interview from Pat Tillman's parents....Expressing the gratitude or the positiveness that these soldiers have conveyed to Pamela Hess.

I personally think the whole thing is a disaster, but at the same time I sincerely hope that our troops feel like they are contributing to something worthwhile...And there in lies the difference....At this stage of the war in Vietnam there was such a public cry of outrage coupled with a draft that to many soldiers there was no place worse to be....That is not the case with our governments "War on  terror"...Everyone there (in Iraq) has enlisted out of choice so I think it is actually somewhat compelling, and although it is possibly misguided, I am proud of our troops that they believe in their mission and I pray that they all come home safely as soon as possible.

Perused my post with displeasure going to bed.

_____________________________



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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 11:09:27 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Article 114 --Dueling


I wanted to join the Marines but just couldn't give up dueling.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 11:09:35 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Gee Ron ... you are giving up in Afghanistan and Iraq also?
 
I know who not to stand next to in a scrap.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 11:13:36 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		If it weren't for that mother fucking article#125 I would have been one Hell of a Muther Fuckin' Marine.....Boooya!

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 11:15:42 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"Article 134-21--Firearm, discharging--willfully, under such circumstances as to endanger human life "

Ummm...

Isn't that like the entire point of the Marines?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 11:18:06 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

how is understanding that Iran is militarily backwards and would be no threat to the United States, suggesting that we desire to go to war?  


My question was just a general reaction to the idea of war with Iran; I wasn't saying that you were advocating it.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/23/2007 11:19:03 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/23/2007 11:28:42 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Funny you guys ...
 
Since this thread is more fun that my date tonight ... which can be judged by how early I got home ... and I'm in full attack mode, I'm going to finish it off and go to bed.
 
Earlier in this thread, I made the statement:

quote:
I see the hard anti-war movement as bullshit artists on the same level as the bullshit artist we have in the Whitehouse. They are just bullshit artists that have different political views.


I'm sticking with this one.
 
President Bush used false information, to support his position.
 
Strong anti-war activists are willing to use false information concerning the capabilities of the Iranian military, to support their position.
 
Obviously, anti-war activists have far, far, FAR better intentions (for instance, being against killing people instead of for killing them), but in reality, are no more credible than the President.
 
Yet another reason why we get the sorts of leaders we get these days.
 
I'm now off to bed, before I get myself justifiably moderated.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 3/23/2007 11:33:19 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 12:16:36 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Also having some business with the government I would like to draw your attention to Article 134-12.............


re your earlier comment of yadda yadda yadda but in civilian clothes and all that, I will tell you this, the government may giveth in that statement but article 134-12 doth take it away.

Sgt. Ron Melby former RA


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 12:26:48 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Gee Ron ... you are giving up in Afghanistan and Iraq also?
 
I know who not to stand next to in a scrap.


If it was a scrap, I would be one of the ones to stand next to,  you goddamn right i would flush the whole shitoree, because where is Bin Lauden ?  Is he  with Nicole Smiths killer in a bar in  El Segundo?

WTF?

I still remember this shit becuase it is all there is, these are the field operational orders of an NCO:
My Mission
My Men
My Equipment  
My Morale
My Self

What the fuck clearly and succintly is my mission?
WMDs done......
My men are being killed
I have expended my equipment to no avail
I have no morale or will to carry the fight to the end
I am now focusing on myself

We are out of here clown.

I would be the best bet you got.  Cause once I hit the bottom of the 5 to-dos?  Restet the list and start at the top.

Ron



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 40
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