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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 1:55:20 AM

farglebargle

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From: Albany, NY
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The problem I have with everyone saying "We can't leave", is the simple fact that if they screw up, it's easy enough to send back the Marines.

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 41

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 3:01:02 AM

Kendra

Posts: 92
Joined: 5/17/2005
Status: offline

Good Evening Ladies and Gentlemen,
respectfully,
two things...
            That interview with that lady seems to be the most 'real' thing I have seen on the media or news since this whole abortion started, she seemed to be emotional but essentially , honestly trying to express what she saw.
        (Embedded or not, Goverment puppet or not , that would be for the many Dominants and politically motivated posters to discuss & dissect and I'm not interested in arguments.)
Second thing ,
       It is to Australia's shame that when returning veterans returned from The Vietnam War they were spat upon, disrespected and treated like second class citizens , some still even now fighting for medical help , regardless of political issues, when a serviceman or woman goes into a combat or a policed zone to serve their country they should not be treated badly when they return home to their families.
                   I was only seven when the bloke across the road came home. but I remember the talk in the street and the way people treated him. I know this war in Iraq isn't popular, and rightly or wrongly people can argue themselves till they're blue in the face , but the groundswell of negativity frightens me that maybe we are slipping back into that mindset where the man on the ground gets treated like shite for taking orders from ELECTED government. that would be a terrible shame.
respectfully
k..........

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kendra... freedom through submission......

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 42

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 4:29:35 AM

slavegirljoy

Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Also having some business with the government I would like to draw your attention to Article 134-12.............

re your earlier comment of yadda yadda yadda but in civilian clothes and all that, I will tell you this, the government may giveth in that statement but article 134-12 doth take it away.

Sgt. Ron Melby former RA

The article you mentioned concerns disloyal statements made against the government of the United States. It doesn't ban free speech. Article 134-12 —Disloyal statements
"A declaration of personal belief can amount to a disloyal statement if it disavows allegiance owed to the United States by the declarant. The disloyalty involved for this offense must be to the United States as a political entity and not merely to a department or other agency that is a part of its administration." "Examples include praising the enemy, attacking the war aims of the United States, or denouncing our form of government with the intent to promote disloyalty or disaffection among members of the armed services."

All enlisted soldiers join the Army by taking an oath in which they swear (or affirm) "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

A service member making disloyal statements against the U.S. is a very different thing that simply speaking freely their personal opinions when off duty and not in an official capacity, but simply as a citizen of this country. No service member is going to be punished for speaking freely when they are not in uniform and not on duty.

SSG Linda Holt, U.S.Army (1974-87)

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 43

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 5:24:10 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kendra

where the man on the ground gets treated like shite for taking orders from ELECTED government. that would be a terrible shame.
respectfully
k..........

Sounds reasonable......where it is assumed that the man on the ground is simply taking orders. Is signing up to an army and taking an oath simply taking orders? If so, the inference is that people are nothing more than the government's robots. I don't think this is clear cut by any stretch of the imagination. There will be people in Iraq who would rather not be there and are pissed off about the whole episode, then there will be people who are on a crusade and relish the thought of killing of muslims - for various reasons.

The blame for Iraq should not be directed solely towards the government. I'm sure the personal responsibility champions will take the point.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Kendra)

Post #: 44

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 6:10:31 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

disaffection among members of the armed services

"This war is bad. We are slaughtering innocent civilians. There is no end in sight."

Etc.

Sinergy

quote:

A service member making disloyal statements against the U.S. is a very different thing that simply speaking freely their personal opinions when off duty and not in an official capacity, but simply as a citizen of this country. No service member is going to be punished for speaking freely when they are not in uniform and not on duty.

SSG Linda Holt, U.S.Army (1974-87)

What defines when a person is on duty in Monkeyboy's New World Order?

Sinergy

_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to slavegirljoy)

Post #: 45

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 7:15:40 AM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I am no longer peace activist Caitlyn, but the fact remains, Iran is a larger country, they have more of a military than Iraq, they would be harder to invade, unlike Saddam they have a military. I did not say that their military would save them, I bet we could inflict major casualties, destroy their country if that were our aim. But beat them? We cannot beat countries that have little more than sticks and stones.
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20060531-121559-6573r.htm

Now you may not have much respect for my opinion because I am propeace.... you can be as disrespectful to me as you like. In my opinion that illustrates your character, and has no relation to mine...

I am not bothering with people that attack me anymore, if would like to go on that list of people, fine by me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 46

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 8:30:23 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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well, unless there is some serious change of plans, one can look at it like this, we are having the devil of a time rounding up 120,000 day to day troops to get what we don't got yet handled. Then afganistan aint slowing down any, so we are going to need a fellow or two over there on an ongoing basis to provide a little bayonet diplomacy. Furthermore we have expended a fuck of a load of our intelligent metals already in a couple of these dustups, the electronics for them coming from china mostly---the propellents from --- anyways walk into home depot and by a 10 foot stick of copper pipe, 3/4 L or M........hmmmmmmmm Anyone remember the song 'Allentown' by Billy Joel? Steelmaking is a a cottage industry now, the budget strained --- Oh, yeah Korea might come up ever so often, and we have committments of troops all around the globe--- Charles in France et al, anyone remember those histories, they didn't turn out really well at all.

But a bottom line in the more modern world and quite honestly mostly in the ancient world, imperial leapfrogging of countries actually doesn't even look good on paper let alone in reality, I checked this with Napoleon and Hitler and they pretty much agreed.

Put your xbox StarWars games down, go to the salvation army and see if you can get the game Risk because that is the method, or if you absolutely want to try a limited grab a gob and hold get one of the old Civilization games and put that up on your PC.

All this shit is a travesty, a tragedy and a damn poor idea.

The logistics of war is what does you in every time, and embedded in that word is a graspable (I know it is, you guys) concept of logic.

You can start by recycling every bit of metal we have, and write your congressman all you hotheaded youngsters who will be eligible and demand that at the very least they institute a draft. This is going to be anathema coming from me, but in this one narrow matter, I am glad I am too old to get the young nubile pussy that I so cherish and being left out of that.

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 47

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 10:12:00 AM

domiguy

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If i remember correctly, and I know that I do...My mind is a ...Where was I?....Anywhoo, if I recall correctly, the soldiers who mocked Kerry by holding up a sign with misspelled letters faced a possible reprimand...Free speech?

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Post #: 48

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 10:15:39 AM

Sternhand4

Posts: 422
Joined: 3/6/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

If i remember correctly, and I know that I do...My mind is a ...Where was I?....Anywhoo, if I recall correctly, the soldiers who mocked Kerry by holding up a sign with misspelled letters faced a possible reprimand...Free speech?

Were they in uniform at the time?
Thats the only reason you get in trouble for protesting, not the opinion.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 49

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 10:20:35 AM

mnottertail

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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few other cases as well, but I am sure 134-12 was perused. It's kinda like if you never been in court before you believe what you read in the history books. It ain't so Joe, the President is the CINC. Treason is in the eye of the beholder, at the very least, lets say you are PFC BigJohnson and you civvie up your clothes, and you are on a three week leave, all of a sudden you splash the front page of the New York Times and Guardian, as a war protester, Its a nebulous thing. There will never be a CPL BigJohnson tho, take that to the bank. Outta sight, outta mind, don't ask, don't tell.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 50

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 10:25:34 AM

Sanity

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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

I BELIEVE that those soldiers each received a wink and a smile when they got their stern talking to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

If i remember correctly, and I know that I do...My mind is a ...Where was I?....Anywhoo, if I recall correctly, the soldiers who mocked Kerry by holding up a sign with misspelled letters faced a possible reprimand...Free speech?

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 51

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 10:32:05 AM

domiguy

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Joined: 5/2/2006
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I agree with you...I found their response to be humorous....Yet, you are not entitled to an opinion in uniform? Just thought it was a valid point to the argument...Again it sounds like there is a possibility that Pam Hess is reporting what she hears from the troops...When she talks with them are they in uniform?....lol.

It sounds like she cares deeply for the troops...But the possibilty remains that if she has been saying the same thing for the last two years that she might have lost an honest perspective on this war....Because even the Generals have publicly spoken about having their hands tied and a plan that is not working and/or being implemented effectively.

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Post #: 52

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 10:52:22 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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I think that it's quite a stretch for you to try to discredit Pam Hess by suggesting that all the soldiers she met during her time in Iraq have been programmed to spout pure propaganda.

That is your intent, isn't it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I agree with you...I found their response to be humorous....Yet, you are not entitled to an opinion in uniform? Just thought it was a valid point to the argument...Again it sounds like there is a possibility that Pam Hess is reporting what she hears from the troops...When she talks with them are they in uniform?....lol.

It sounds like she cares deeply for the troops...But the possibilty remains that if she has been saying the same thing for the last two years that she might have lost an honest perspective on this war....Because even the Generals have publicly spoken about having their hands tied and a plan that is not working and/or being implemented effectively.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 53

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 11:01:12 AM

domiguy

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Not trying to discredit her...But rather understand where she is coming from...She has spent a great deal of time with our troops...I hope that the troops believe in what they are doing...And I think perhaps it is possible for her emotions to have been swayed by spending so much time with them.

If she is saying the same thing today that she did in 2005 then I think it does become a valid point, because even our Generals have disagreed with much of how this war has been carried out and planned...I just think there is a possibility that her emotions have clouded a story...I think she supports our troops and wants them to be shown in the best possible light...I don't think there is anything particularily wrong with this with the exception when people start suggesting her voice is the voice of truth and honesty when depicting what is actually happening on the ground in Iraq.

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Post #: 54

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 11:06:45 AM

Sternhand4

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Joined: 3/6/2005
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from the military times poll..

They don’t report good news’ While 73 percent of respondents believe it’s likely the United States will succeed in Iraq, that’s down 10 points from a year ago.
“We’re losing a lot of troops. The suicide bombers are not stopping,” said Air Force Staff Sgt. Melida G. Castano. “It doesn’t look promising at this point.”
But others blamed the loss in confidence on the media, which many said has failed to report positive news in Iraq. Four of every five respondents said they believe media reports are often inaccurate.
“They don’t report the good news, and if they do, it’s on the back page,” said Marine Chief Warrant Officer-3 Michael Edmonson.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 55

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 11:10:32 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

There is no "Good News" while people die needlessly.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sternhand4)

Post #: 56

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 11:13:01 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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You keep mentioning "the Generals". Are "the Generals" all supposed to be in total agreement with "the Administration"?

If not, then why do you keep mentioning them that way. And what if "the Generals" hands were untied - would that make you happy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
even our Generals have disagreed with much of how this war has been carried out and planned...

< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/24/2007 11:14:41 AM >

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 57

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 11:16:18 AM

domiguy

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Joined: 5/2/2006
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I do agree to a point...I do know that bad news sells...So where does the truth lie? It would be nice to see some tangible evidence of success, yet the bodies of Iraqis and Americans seem to keep piling up by the hour...It is hard to imagine any success in bringing the Sunnis and Shiites together which has to happen to squelch the violence and have any form of democracy arise.

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Post #: 58

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 11:21:00 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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There is no way to control the violence at this point,They want us out to run amuck..Those in control there know when we leave they need to be on the same plane out of dodge..Partition the country and share the wealth is the only way..Hell for thousands of years they have been knocking off each other so what incentive do they have to quit now.The Turks couldn't control them and made a haste retreat.good sense in my view...bounty

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 59

RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/24/2007 11:31:05 AM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You keep mentioning "the Generals". Are "the Generals" all supposed to be in total agreement with "the Administration"?

If not, then why do you keep mentioning them that way. And what if "the Generals" hands were untied - would that make you happy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
even our Generals have disagreed with much of how this war has been carried out and planned...

I'm going fishing...It is just that you are putting faith in someone's words and views who's attitude towards the war as well as the success of our troops has never appeared to wane....I think she is a believer...Fine. But beyond that it doesn't begin to answer how to solve the problems between the Sunnis and Shiites.

Everyone who is there volunteered...the majority have beliefs which are on the "right " side of the political spectrum...They bought the stories...Good for them. I hope they believe in what they are doing and I hope hey all come home safely...

But people have a way of rationalizing causes and crusades...I wish them well. there is a possibility they are unable to see the big picture...When they are wounded and interviewed this is how the typical interview goes....Reporter: "So are you going back to fight."...Soldier.."yep. I'm looking forward to rejoin my people."

Soldiers have a tremendous sense of loyalty to one another...and thank God they do!...Yet as to giving an honest perspective of the situation is possibly outside of their grasp.

I don't think what I am saying is unreasonable...And there is nothing that shows the two sides are any closer to getting along now...Is there a valid argument to the contrary?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/24/2007 11:32:19 AM >

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Post #: 60

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