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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 7:19:51 AM   
Transdromeda


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Joined: 12/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am no longer peace activist Caitlyn, but the fact remains, Iran is a larger country, they have more of a military than Iraq, they would be harder to invade, unlike Saddam they have a military. I did not say that their military would save them, I bet we could inflict major casualties, destroy their country if that were our aim. But beat them? We cannot beat countries that have little more than sticks and stones.
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20060531-121559-6573r.htm

Now you may not have much respect for my opinion because I am propeace.... you can be as disrespectful to me as you like. In my opinion that illustrates your character, and has no relation to mine...

I am not bothering with people that attack me anymore, if would like to go on that list of people, fine by me.

just because one understands the reasons for war doesnt make them anti peace.  Im pro-peace two but it takes two sides to have peace.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 7:31:43 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Transdromeda

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am no longer peace activist Caitlyn, but the fact remains, Iran is a larger country, they have more of a military than Iraq, they would be harder to invade, unlike Saddam they have a military. I did not say that their military would save them, I bet we could inflict major casualties, destroy their country if that were our aim. But beat them? We cannot beat countries that have little more than sticks and stones.
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20060531-121559-6573r.htm

Now you may not have much respect for my opinion because I am propeace.... you can be as disrespectful to me as you like. In my opinion that illustrates your character, and has no relation to mine...

I am not bothering with people that attack me anymore, if would like to go on that list of people, fine by me.

just because one understands the reasons for war doesnt make them anti peace.  Im pro-peace two but it takes two sides to have peace.


I have read several nonsense posts from you, and out of all of them this one makes the least sense. Why did we invade Iraq? Were they a threat to us? No. So please do not make an assertion that we were somehow forced to invade these people, the only thing they did wrong was have our oil under their sand. Please do not sit there and claim that we had no option but to fight them. If you really believe this you do not know anything about the entire situation.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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(in reply to Transdromeda)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 8:19:24 AM   
Transdromeda


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Joined: 12/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

My response in this thread, was limited to statements made by you, that we do not have a sufficient military to invade Iran, and statements by julia which vastly inflated the military capability of Iran. All I did was point out the inaccuracies.

 
Curious, what I remember posting was that this would not be the same or as easy as toppling Saddam after 10 years of sanctions. I believe I said that Iran is larger and has more people, more healthy well fed people that are of age to fight. Now you can spin what I said all you like, but I stand behind what I said.. Iran would be far harder to take on than Iraq because we simply do not have the manpower to occupy it, and it has a military... unlike Afghanistan and Iraq... I did NOT say that Iran was a military power in the world... but they certainly have more of a military than the two countries that currently have us mired down.

BTW, if you think for a second that Iran's military would fight the same way as Saddam's (laying down their guns), I think you are wrong. It would cost more lives than Iraq did in the invasion stage.

you are right they do have healthier well fed, well educated people a good portion of whom would like to see their controlling suffocating governement toppled.  Ever talk to any iranians online?  The desire freedom as much as anyone. they have to watch what they say, what they do all the time they could lose their job or their life by the wrong thing conveyed to the wrong person.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 8:33:18 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		All I can say is wow! You are beyond conversing with on this topic. I would suggest that you unplug yourself from Fox News.

Yes, a few years ago I used to chat with someone in Iran with an American wife. He thought the USA was going to start WW3, and was not supportive of the invasion of Iraq... he was a very secular and educated Iranian btw

Edited to echo LaT

quote:

Spoken like a truely clueless person. From this I deduce that you A.) have not actually BEEN in the middle east and B.) do not know the history of the middle east




< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/25/2007 8:34:30 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Transdromeda)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 8:34:54 AM   
Transdromeda


Posts: 26
Joined: 12/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Transdromeda

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am no longer peace activist Caitlyn, but the fact remains, Iran is a larger country, they have more of a military than Iraq, they would be harder to invade, unlike Saddam they have a military. I did not say that their military would save them, I bet we could inflict major casualties, destroy their country if that were our aim. But beat them? We cannot beat countries that have little more than sticks and stones.
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20060531-121559-6573r.htm

Now you may not have much respect for my opinion because I am propeace.... you can be as disrespectful to me as you like. In my opinion that illustrates your character, and has no relation to mine...

I am not bothering with people that attack me anymore, if would like to go on that list of people, fine by me.

just because one understands the reasons for war doesnt make them anti peace.  Im pro-peace two but it takes two sides to have peace.


I have read several nonsense posts from you, and out of all of them this one makes the least sense. Why did we invade Iraq? Were they a threat to us? No. So please do not make an assertion that we were somehow forced to invade these people, the only thing they did wrong was have our oil under their sand. Please do not sit there and claim that we had no option but to fight them. If you really believe this you do not know anything about the entire situation.


Its not our oil!  and if we bothered to drill for oil and build refineries in this country we wouldnt need their oil!!   We believed that Saddam had Weapon s of mass desctruction and that he had ties to terrorist groups and was funding terrorists.  We already had evidence of his using them and he attacked and conquered another country. Saddam was a threat.  We acted on intelligence that agreed with british, isrreali, russian and chinese intelligence that Saddam had them.  In fact he thought he had them himself!  We acted on that intelligence believing it to be the truth with multiple soarces.  If that intelligence turns out not to be true,  acting on it doesnt make it a lie or decptive.  Unless the Bush administration found out something that Clinton didnt know, then its time machine politics to go back in time with something we think we know now and indict our actions at the time!  heck saddam had fourteen months to get rid of wmds during the un resolutions while he was dicking around the un  inspectors playing cat and mouse. 

When would we have had to fight them? how many more toothless resolutions that Saddam would just ignore?  Saddam was in the process of loosing the sanctions trading the oil for food for weapons from france russia and china.  No wonder the un didnt want to fight him.  They never would have without us leadership.forcing the issue. 

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 8:35:47 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Wow, I did not realize that Ann Coulter was posting on CM

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Transdromeda)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 8:39:06 AM   
Transdromeda


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Joined: 12/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

All I can say is wow! You are beyond conversing with on this topic. I would suggest that you unplug yourself from Fox News.

Yes, a few years ago I used to chat with someone in Iran with an American wife. He thought the USA was going to start WW3, and was not supportive of the invasion of Iraq... he was a very secular and educated Iranian btw

Edited to echo LaT

quote:

Spoken like a truely clueless person. From this I deduce that you A.) have not actually BEEN in the middle east and B.) do not know the history of the middle east




aleast i get balanced news from differnt soarces ill bet you never listen to anything the right side has to say.  Dont you think its odd you hear the same thing from cbs, nbc, abc, cnn, msnbc,.

oh so your going to tell me cause you talked to one person they all think like that.  i wont say the same thing but i have talked to several iranians on the internet who voiced that opinion.  in fact the first time i heard it i was blown away! it never occured to me that someone could lose their life or their job by expressing an opinion on the internet!!!!

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 10:19:47 AM   
juliaoceania


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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

aleast i get balanced news from differnt soarces ill bet you never listen to anything the right side has to say.  Dont you think its odd you hear the same thing from cbs, nbc, abc, cnn, msnbc,.



I rarely watch tv, and I am suspect of anything put out by the infotainment industry. When I am talking to my mom she has CNN on most of the time, and the amount of deceptive one-sided garbage on tv is simply frightening.  I would try reading news from other countries for one, and independent journalists that do not have editors telling them what to say.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/25/2007 10:20:01 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Transdromeda)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 1:06:06 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

i clearly remember the televised Goldwater-Johnson debates in  '64


Joy ---

I don't think Goldwater and Johnson debated on TV in 1964. Found an interesting reference to it on CNN.com.

President Kennedy appeared open to the idea of debating his Republican opponent in 1964, and bills suspending the equal time requirements were circulating in both chambers of Congress in 1963. However, after Kennedy was assassinated, the legislation was tabled. President Lyndon Johnson was continually challenged to debate by Republican nominee Barry Goldwater. But Johnson, not known for his debate skills, refused.

Is it possible you're thinking of something else?

DC



_____________________________

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 2:19:45 PM   
domiguy


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Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I just have to laugh at those who think that this war is about installing democracy in Iraq.   Who says they deserve one?  Were the Iraqi's united in a clear voice begging the world and the U.S. for democracy?...What a bunch of horse shit!

Feast on this.....


posted May 22, 2006 at 11:30 a.m.







Middle class leaving Iraq
Since destruction of Samarra shrine, many Iraqis are desperate to leave the country.
By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com
A few months after reports indicated that Iraqi university professors and academics were fleeing the country because of violence and kidnappings, new media reports say that the middle class in Iraq also wants to leave.
The New York Times reported last week that more and more middle class Iraqis seem to be " doing everything they can to leave the country."


"In the last 10 months, the state has issued new passports to 1.85 million Iraqis, 7 percent of the population and a quarter of the country's estimated middle class. The school system offers another clue: Since 2004, the Ministry of Education has issued 39,554 letters permitting parents to take their children's academic records abroad. The number of such letters issued in 2005 was double that in 2004, according to the director of the ministry's examination department. Iraqi officials and international organizations put the number of Iraqis in Jordan at close to a million. Syrian cities also have growing Iraqi populations."


We are so excited about the prospects of democracy...As well as how obviously the war is proceeding...What should we do?...Stay, fight and organize to support our new government and democracy!.....FUCK NO!!!.....LET"S GET THE FUCK OUT OF THIS SHIT!!!!!

This alone should speak volumes about the value that Iraqi's place on democracy....And how they view the  prospects or importance of success.


< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/25/2007 2:20:17 PM >

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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 2:41:00 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		To me, that's the difference between Democrats and Republicans right there. Democrats wanted wars of pure apeshit revenge. Dems said "KILL the fucking bastards who did this, make them bleed". "STOMP THEM INTO THE SAND".

Am I right?

REPUBLICANS said, let's make the Middle East a kinder, gentler place, safer for Democracy and a haven for learning and economic development. Let us extend a hand to these forlorn people, and help them up. Liberals HATE that idea.

Read what domiguy says, and tell me where I am wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I just have to laugh at those who think that this war is about installing democracy in Iraq.   Who says they deserve one?  Were the Iraqi's united in a clear voice begging the world and the U.S. for democracy?...What a bunch of horse shit!


(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 2:42:51 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Democrats wanted wars of pure apeshit revenge. Dems said "KILL the fucking bastards who did this, make them bleed". "STOMP THEM INTO THE SAND".

Am I right?


Which wars are you thinking of?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 2:45:33 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

REPUBLICANS said, let's make the Middle East a kinder, gentler place, safer for Democracy and a haven for learning and economic development. Let us extend a hand to these forlorn people, and help them up.


I thought what they said was (a) that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and (b) that there was a link between Saddam and 9/11. Helping the Middle East didn't become a rationale until (a) and (b) failed to pan out.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 4:51:19 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Nope DC, I understand why you want to distort the reasons given, but....It was said that Saddam was linked to terrorists, not that he was directly tied to the 911 attack.  He was giving refuge to some of the Cole bombers, as well as Abu Nidal, who killed Americans.  He was publically funding Hamas and other terrorist Orginizations.  Clinton linked him to Al Queda and bombed Sudan over it.  The Iraqi liberation act passed in 98(?) stated the goal of helping out the mid east, as did the list of reasons Bush sent to congress( that they voted to approve).  Also Saddam was in clear violations of the WMD and related  sanctions.  Not to mention his regular shooting at American pilots.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 4:53:15 PM   
Sinergy


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Transdromeda

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

We have been studying this some, and you have to factor in three pretty important points:
 
1. Iran has virtually no modern air defense system, and lacks the logistical means to maneuver their few military formation. Iraq posed a much greater challenge in both these areas.
 
2. While the Army has suffered a good bit of wear and tear in Iraq, the Air Force and Naval air components have cleaned up nicely in the past two years. The force multiplier, is actually much stronger than it was in 2002.
 
3. You would have to imagine that if war with Iran came (perish the thought), there are powerful and fresh formations available in Germany, that would undoubtedly be used.
 
I do agree with you, that Israel wouldn't join in. They were not ready for their last war, much less one as far away as Iran. I don't think we would want them there anyway ... but do think there is a good chance that Saudi Arabia might tag along, because of the potential for profit.
 
Then again, all this war talk was silly before and is just as silly now. We could have spent one-hundreth the money, bought all these people off, and been Byzantine about sewing discontent between them as oil rivals.

to say we could have bought them all off is to believe that religiious belief plays no part in the terrorists motivation.  Buying off never seeems to work either look at oil for food!  the biggest reason isreal didnt get involved in this war and wouldnt in iran is they would have to go thruough Jordan which is problematical even with Jordans permission and maybe making the war much more regional.


I agree with you 100%.  I think the US President's messianic fundamentalist religiousity and desire to bring about the next apocalypse played a great part in Monkeyboy's decision to invade Iraq to actively slaugher the muslims who live there.

Good call!

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Transdromeda)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 4:58:40 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

REPUBLICANS said, let's make the Middle East a kinder, gentler place, safer for Democracy and a haven for learning and economic development. Let us extend a hand to these forlorn people, and help them up.


I thought what they said was (a) that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and (b) that there was a link between Saddam and 9/11. Helping the Middle East didn't become a rationale until (a) and (b) failed to pan out.


I think you are missing the point, dcnovice.

Right wingers rant and rave about how bad a man Hussein was.  When it is pointed out that Pinochet was a bad man supported by the US government...

Right wingers rant and rave about WMD.  When it is determined that Iraq doesnt have any WMD...

Right wingers rant and rave about bringing Democracy and freedom to Iraq.  When it is determined that the government the US puts in place is neither democratic, capable of bringing freedom to anybody, and unable to support the rebuilding of a social infrastructure... 

Right wingers rant and rave about the connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam.  When it is proven to them that Al Qaeda was rebuffed by Saddam...

Right wingers rant and rave about Iran being responsible for all the problems in Iraq.  When it is proven that Iran was not a problem until the United States invaded the country and destabilized the region...

Right wingers rant and rave about what a bad man Saddam Hussein was...

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Sinergy

p.s. the term for this is "circuitous logic."

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 5:01:58 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		yeah, that thousand points of lights shit---not happy circumstance when it is realized that they are muzzle flashes.

Not according to spec. (in this case speculation rather than specification)

WarAdmiral




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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 5:02:51 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

To me, that's the difference between Democrats and Republicans right there. Democrats wanted wars of pure apeshit revenge. Dems said "KILL the fucking bastards who did this, make them bleed". "STOMP THEM INTO THE SAND".

Am I right?

REPUBLICANS said, let's make the Middle East a kinder, gentler place, safer for Democracy and a haven for learning and economic development. Let us extend a hand to these forlorn people, and help them up. Liberals HATE that idea.

Read what domiguy says, and tell me where I am wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I just have to laugh at those who think that this war is about installing democracy in Iraq.   Who says they deserve one?  Were the Iraqi's united in a clear voice begging the world and the U.S. for democracy?...What a bunch of horse shit!




Don't try to interpret what I say....You can only screw it up!

Did these forlorn people ask for a hand?...This is one of the problems...Who has gained democracy by having someone hand it to them?...Shouldn't it at least be earned to be respected?....Who says they even wanted democracy?


"A haven for "learning"...Well with no Iraqi's around to teach....It won't require much effort.

A good way to point this out is.... Since these forlorn people were so excited about having elections, and welcoming the glories of democracy and freedom....THAT 25% OF THE MIDDLE CLASS HAS LEFT THE COUNTRY WITH MORE LEAVING EVERYDAY!!!!!!

THE IRAQI"S LOVE DEMOCRACY AND  SUPPORT THE U.S. SO MUCH THAT THEY ARE LEAVING BY THE MILLIONS....."WILL YOU FIGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOM?"    "NO,  I CHOOSE TO WATCH FROM PAKISTAN!!!....LOL...

quote:

Sanity
REPUBLICANS said, let's make the Middle East a kinder, gentler place, safer for Democracy and a haven for learning and economic development.



And the Iraqi's wanted it so much that they are making the "good fight" by leaving....Do you read posts before you start to type?

If you want ot help some forlorn folks and make an area kinder, safer as well as a haven for learning and economic development...Go invest your time in money in rebuildig our innercity programs and schools...AMERICANS will thank you for your effort....

Everything else you said made no sense.  I'm Getting used to it.

quote:

Sanity
REPUBLICANS said, let's make the Middle East a kinder, gentler place, safer for Democracy and a haven for learning and economic development. Let us extend a hand to these forlorn people, and help them up. Liberals HATE that idea.


You know I missed this part in our President's address outlining the reasons for the war....Please provide link....lol....Pathetic!


< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/25/2007 5:04:21 PM >

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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 5:16:48 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

This alone should speak volumes about the value that Iraqi's place on democracy....And how they view the  prospects or importance of success.



Also, democracy is simply an idea. It's not an absolute. The surpression of ideas is not the way forward.


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RE: A different voice on Iraq - 3/25/2007 5:33:08 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Born in the U.S.A.
Bruce Springsteen

I got in a little hometown jam
And so they put a rifle in my hands
Sent me off to Vietnam
To go and kill the yellow man

[Chorus]

Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says "Son if it was up to me"
I go down to see the V.A. man
He said "Son don't you understand"

Rich Man’s War
Steve Earle

Jimmy joined the army ‘cause he had no place to go
There ain’t nobody hirin’
‘round here since all the jobs went
down to Mexico
Reckoned that he’d learn himself a trade maybe see the world
Move to the city someday and marry a black haired girl
Somebody somewhere had another plan
Now he’s got a rifle in his hand
Rollin’ into Baghdad wonderin’ how he got this far
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man’s war

_____________________________

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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