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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:42:37 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

NRA web site - not that it is biased of cause!!

And the thought of not neading to have and use these weapons never seems to enter the equation. ?
Perhaps there are as many cases where the intruder shot the householder first because if he didn't he may get shot and,,,,,, well he had access to a gun anyway so may as well use it.
Your argument could be out as ...."our society is so bad that we all have to carry a gun"............wonderful.

Most parts of the US seem to be perfecly safe to walk around in and not consider guns. In fact you see far more police on the streets than in the UK, and hopefully the police have greater training on firearms than the average american citizen. I accept that for the US thre may now be too many guns in circulation to ever go back, but lets be honest that that is why so many get killed, maimed and injured with them.


I was talking to a class today that was concerned about gun violence.  I pointed out that a person using a gun is probably adrenalized and has lessened fine motor skills.  Is probably not trained or experienced in firing a gun.  Etc.

I generally point out that the safest thing to do is simply turn and run away, which agrees with what several gun self defense experts who lecture our unarmed defense against the armed assailant classes state.  The more distance you put between yourself and the gun being used against you the less likely they are to hit you.  Besides which, the odds of taking a lethal shot are fairly minimal.

I pointed out a situation that happened several years ago in New York.  An armed person had a shootout with 12 police officers at distances up to 20 feet away.

The police fired 72 rounds.  They hit the suspect once.  The buildings had bullet holes.  The car had bullet holes.  Etc.  These are police officers who train on the range and use a gun professionally in adrenalized situations.

Sinergy

p.s.  If somebody is going to kill you they will walk up to you while you are waiting in line at Starbucks for your no foam decaf low-fat latte and put a bullet between your eyes.  If somebody points a gun at you and you are not dead, odds are fairly good they dont intend to kill you right then.


When I was in the USCG they'd take us outside the indoor range and have us run a mile or so,  then we'd go in to qualify on the range. Makes it more realistic!
Most local cops aren't that good a shot.
The reason, they only have to qualify once a year on the range and unless you practice on your own you're going to lose the edge.
And most departments don't have their own indoor ranges unless they're near a big city or a state police barracks.
It's budgets, small town and cities. They don't have the money to pay instructors and buy cases of ammunition.
One box of 50 .40 cal ammo can go for $14-$18.
You can blast through 4 or 5 boxes pretty quickly on the range.
Ask Sinergy what happens if he doesn't practise for 2 months.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:45:26 PM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
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Status: offline 		So the people that are armed to protect the citizens don't know how to use them, but the NRA goes on about trained gun owners...............I'm suprised there aren't more poeple accidently shot.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:47:20 PM   
FukinTroll


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

So the people that are armed to protect the citizens don't know how to use them, but the NRA goes on about trained gun owners...............I'm suprised there aren't more poeple accidently shot.


Do you think that firing into a riot would make them all submit and go home?

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:47:56 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

Stern - LA riots - so failure of the police is the reason for having guns



[sarcasm]

Exactly.

When an angry and armed mob of 400 people come up your street, you can flash your .38 six shooter and make them all go away.

[/sarcasm]





         Send six loads of #4 shot into the first row, they'll try another street.  When a major quake hits this area, it's going to make the King riots look like a parking lot scuffle after a basketball game.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:48:42 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

So the people that are armed to protect the citizens don't know how to use them, but the NRA goes on about trained gun owners...............I'm suprised there aren't more poeple accidently shot.


Do you think that firing into a riot would make them all submit and go home?


Has it worked in the past? I honestly don't know.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:51:56 PM   
FukinTroll


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Status: offline 		Not so well in Tulsa. When they fired on the crowd it just pissed them off and they burnt half the city down and had no homes to go to.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:52:23 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Ask Sinergy what happens if he doesn't practise for 2 months.



Being out of breath and under adrenalin are two different things, popeye1250.  Paper targets dont shoot back.

Sinergy

p.s. I dont actually practice.  Every year or two I go kill paper for a while.


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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:53:12 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		         Send six loads of #4 shot into the first row, they'll try another street.  When a major quake hits this area, it's going to make the King riots look like a parking lot scuffle after a basketball game.


Being naive, won't the mob have been
a) able to loot loads of fire arms and can blast back at you
b) may already be gun owners
c) the clever ones will wait until the mob goes and take you out with a nice shot from there legally owned hunting rifle
d)..endless other option related to easy accessibility to fire power by all and sundry...........

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:55:03 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

        Send six loads of #4 shot into the first row, they'll try another street. 



You have done this?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:55:14 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Not so well in Tulsa. When they fired on the crowd it just pissed them off and they burnt half the city down and had no homes to go to.


I'm not an expert on this (or anything, actually), but I think that when the British fired on rioters in India. it only hardened the resolve of the independence movement.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:57:25 PM   
FukinTroll


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Status: offline 		I think that might have happened in another country too. Can't think of the name of it though.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:58:22 PM   
Sternhand4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

Stern - LA riots - so failure of the police is the reason for having guns



[sarcasm]

Exactly.

When an angry and armed mob of 400 people come up your street, you can flash your .38 six shooter and make them all go away.

[/sarcasm]
One group that proved that private ownership of weapons works for defense during the riots were the Koreans..
Koreans Defend Themselves with "Assault Rifles" in Los Angeles Riots
Many of the guns which current "assault weapons" bans are targeting -- including the federal ban enacted in 1994 -- are the very guns with which the Korean merchants used to defend themselves during the 1992 Los Angeles riots. (34) Those firearms proved to be extremely useful to the Koreans. Their stores were left standing while other stores around them were burned to the ground.
The Korean merchants would agree that when one is facing mob violence and the police are nowhere to be found, one needs a gun that shoots more than just six bullets. A ban on large capacity semi-automatic firearms will only harm one's ability to defend himself and his family.
While most Americans are able to spend little time thinking of what the police can do to protect them during times of domestic tranquillity, there is no guarantee that this will always be the case. Citizens, like the police, have a right, and some would say a duty, to be able to prepare themselves against certain threats.
34. "Koreans make armed stand to protect shops from looters," Roanoke Times & World-News, 3 May 1992.

I think that when faced with a choice of attacking people with guns versus ones that don't, its not a close call..


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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 9:58:45 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Not so well in Tulsa. When they fired on the crowd it just pissed them off and they burnt half the city down and had no homes to go to.


I'm not an expert on this (or anything, actually), but I think that when the British fired on rioters in India. it only hardened the resolve of the independence movement.


That was my thought when Wyrdrich talked about shooting #4 into a crowd, generally just pisses off the ones who are not leaking fluids.

Well, it does piss off those too, but depending on how much they are leaking they may or may not want to fight.

There is a reason that small bands of policemen did not shoot into crowds during the Los Angeles riots.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 10:11:30 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac
The aguments used by Americans to justify gun ownership are emotional not logical, the nra has an emotional attachment and then finds arguments to justify it. Just be honest. 


Just be honest?  Ok here is the emotional attachment:

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

As far as the arguments are concerned they have already been made 200 years ago.

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.  ---Thomas Jefferson

The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.  ---James Madison

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.  ---Thomas Jefferson

For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.  ---Thomas Jefferson

Patrick Henry, from J. Elliot's, "Debates in the Several State Conventions", 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836:
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined"  ---Patrick Henry

Patrick Henry (1736-1799) in his famous "The War Inevitable" speech, March, 1775:

"They tell us, Sir, that we are weak -- unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power."  ---Patrick Henry

"Three millions of People, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Beside, Sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of Nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us."  ---Patrick Henry

"The battle, Sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, Sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable; and let it come! I repeat, Sir, let it come!"  ---Patrick Henry

"It is in vain, Sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace! -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the North will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that Gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"  ---Patrick Henry



Not like we dont have any of this going down to be fearful of:
-------------------
The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home.  ---James Madison
--------------

military commissions act, patriot act 1, 2 is damn tyranical.


anyway seems pretty logical to me


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/24/2007 10:19:29 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 10:12:31 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

       Send six loads of #4 shot into the first row, they'll try another street. 



You have done this?

Sinergy



       Nope.  I hope I never have to.  My disaster plan involves getting my family the hell out of here (without touching a freeway for the first 300 miles).  The California Aquaduct follows a ridgeline of the San Andreas Fault.  There isn't going to be any water for a while.

      But I know what kind of people (and they come in all colors), live within an easy stroll from my house.  Once we are gone, they are welcome to the water in the hot water tank.  If that is for some reason impossible...  This little cul-de-sac will not be a place for people to try and take by force.

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 10:19:09 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

So the people that are armed to protect the citizens don't know how to use them, but the NRA goes on about trained gun owners...............I'm suprised there aren't more poeple accidently shot.


Dt, they know how to use them they just don't get enough practice.
Knowing how to use a gun and being a good shot is two different things.
Sinergy, adreniline and being out of breath is two different things but it helps to approximate.
Of course we didn't often chase people through the bushes in the USCG we'd more likely muster a crew on the back of their boat or ship then board and go through the rest of the vessel while we had a couple of our guys keep them under guard.
It's simple, if you don't practice at something you get a little "
rusty."
Sinergy, I meant that if you were to not practice or work out on your martial arts for two months you'd be kind of rusty wouldn't you?

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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 10:20:03 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Is the right collective or individual?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 10:22:16 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Is the right collective or individual?


both


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 10:33:16 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Is the right collective or individual?


Dcnovice, you're a "person" right?
Well then it applies to you too.
Like they say, all you need to form a militia is 3 people.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 10:58:34 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Is the right collective or individual?


Dcnovice, you're a "person" right?
Well then it applies to you too.
Like they say, all you need to form a militia is 3 people.


Well, I'm actually a hologram.

I'm intrigued by the framers' using "the people" (which sounds like a group) rather than simply "people" or "the citizens" (which sound like individuals).

<Edited 'cause I'm up way too late and can't type.>



< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/24/2007 11:00:04 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 140
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