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RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 11:09:41 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Is the right collective or individual?

Dcnovice, you're a "person" right?
Well then it applies to you too.
Like they say, all you need to form a militia is 3 people.

Well, I'm actually a hologram.

I'm intrigued by the framers' using "the people" (which sounds like a group) rather than simply "people" or "the citizens" (which sound like individuals).

<Edited 'cause I'm up way too late and can't type.>

dc, who knows?
"The People" means everyone!
They didn't say it was "The government's" right to keep and bare arms either.
And the National Guard isn't the "Militia" either.
The National Guard was where guys like Clinton and Bush and other rich kids went whose parents had influence so that they wouldn't have to go to Vietnam with us working-class guys.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 141

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 11:21:00 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I'm intrigued by the framers' using "the people" (which sounds like a group) rather than simply "people" or "the citizens" (which sound like individuals).

<Edited 'cause I'm up way too late and can't type.>

Written in 1787, ratified in 1788, and in operation since 1789, the United States Constitution is the world’s longest surviving written charter of government. Its first three words – “We The People” – affirm that the government of the United States exists to serve its citizens. The supremacy of the people through their elected representatives is recognized in Article I, which creates

http://www.senate.gov/civics/constitution_item/constitution.htm

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 142

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/24/2007 11:55:46 PM

Nosathro

Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline

In the US..gun controls have really not proven to be effective. The Son of Sam Killer violated some 200 gun law in the City and State of New York, which at that time had the toughest gun control laws in the Country. Even if he was not convicted of any of the murders just on the gun laws alone he would have had been sentence to a very lenghty prison term well in the 100 year area. In fact there are very few conviction on gun control laws, the District Attornies use such laws as leverage to get pleas and such.

There has been some studies that sugguest when a person is under stress in a situation like many police encounter the phyiscal changes in their bodies make them poor shots. One is that their vision becomes so narrow it maybe almost impossible to see clearly. Blood flow is restricted so eye/hand coordination is not effective. There are so many accounts of Police encounters and such where large numbers of rounds are fired and not one hits the target only a few feet away.

As to the LA Riots of the 90s Korea Town was hit and several establishments were burned. The Black and Korean Communities have long been at odds with each other for a long time. The main reason for the lack of police response was that the Chief and several Higher Ups were totally unprepared for it. In fact Police Chief Gates the first night of the riot was attending a Political Fund Raiser while the LA Police Down Town Center was being attacked...he refused to leave to the party even after numerous calls about the situation.

I wish you well

Nosathro

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 143

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 3:01:44 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Who is the danger? The government? Foreign invaders? the bloke down the street?

Doesn't matter. The point is that when Danger Comes, you're prepared.

IF the PASSENGERS on the airplanes hijacked on 9/11 were armed, 9/11 wouldn't have happened. Heck, even after being systematically disarmed by the FAA, Pax on Flt93 STILL took the bastards down.

FargleBargle, based on this chat, I would say the core difference between you and I, and possibly what you would term a traditional conservative and what I would term the real left, is that you are suspicious and plan for the worst. You expect the worst to happen (at some point). In my opinion, although hijacking is blantantly a reality, it is paranoid to run society by preparing for danger. I'm an optimist and expect the best to happen. This translates to faith in society (with the exception of a core group of deviants who are ruining it for the rest of us - the establishments). Ultimately, establishment games are cyclical because playing us off against each other leads to suspicion, paranoia, aggression and hostility in society. In turn, this leads to governments being elected who display the same aggression and hostility. The link will be broken when people move away from this notion that we're adversaries and danger is around the corner. At our core, we're companions (not adversaries) and future generations will display an innate human need towards respect for each other.

You didn't reply to my hypothetical world in post 65. I'm curious, where's the problem with it?

Also, you're Jewish - hopefully, this isn't too close to the bone - what should have prevented the fate of the European Jews - understanding? respect for another? what caused the fate of the European Jews - suspicion, hostility, an adversarial outlook? Right-wing German notions of a racial war primarily between Germans and Slavs with Jews having to be exterminated to preserve the purity of the German race and their strength in their perceived battle with the Slavs. All of this horseshit was built on an adversarial outlook, a lack of respect, hostility, aggression and the deluded, paranoid thinking of a core group of German right-wingers.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 3/25/2007 3:03:56 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 144

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 3:50:09 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

With a quick Glance I see the phrase, "the People" is used in the Preamble to the Constiution, as well as the I,II IV,IX,and X amendments. Surley you don't think the right to free speech applies only to gov chartered orginizations( some equivilant of a militia), or are collective rights. Do you?

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 145

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 5:16:45 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Who is the danger? The government? Foreign invaders? the bloke down the street?

Doesn't matter. The point is that when Danger Comes, you're prepared.

IF the PASSENGERS on the airplanes hijacked on 9/11 were armed, 9/11 wouldn't have happened. Heck, even after being systematically disarmed by the FAA, Pax on Flt93 STILL took the bastards down.

FargleBargle, based on this chat, I would say the core difference between you and I, and possibly what you would term a traditional conservative and what I would term the real left, is that you are suspicious and plan for the worst. You expect the worst to happen (at some point).

In my opinion, although hijacking is blantantly a reality, it is paranoid to run society by preparing for danger. I'm an optimist and expect the best to happen.

Do you own Auto, Homeowners, Health or Life Insurance? Why?

quote:

You didn't reply to my hypothetical world in post 65. I'm curious, where's the problem with it?

I dunno. Maybe I just didn't see it directed to me.

quote:

Also, you're Jewish - hopefully, this isn't too close to the bone - what should have prevented the fate of the European Jews - understanding? respect for another?

Shooting the Nazi Bastards Dead as soon as they started coming for us. *EVERY* Jew should be well armed, if they learned ANYTHING from history.

Which, is sort of disingenous, because of the slow nature of the marginalization of Jews between 1933 and 1938. At what point between 1933 and 1938 should an armed insurrection of Jews had occurred? And since Hitler DISARMED them, it would have been even harder.

And it's not like anyone making money off the Nazis, really cared about the Jews. Henry Ford didn't give a shit, and neither did Prescott Bush. ( Until that "Trading with the Enemy" conviction... )

In 1938, Headlines of "Jews Riot In Germany", would have been received as much attention as the headline "Muslims Riot in Turkey" would today. Little to none.

Which is, I guess, why I do not BELIEVE that ANYONE will come to our aid in the future, it's up to us, and we better keep our powder dry.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/25/2007 5:23:15 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 146

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 5:51:23 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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Car - yes, home - yes, we have a National Health Insurance - so effectively I do by paying my taxes towards it, life insurance - no.

I own car insurance primarily due to law and there's always the other person to consider. If a car crashes into mine........well, that's just one of life's pain in the arse things that you have to take on the chin and get on with. It's not driven by suspicion or constant fear of danger - it's driven by the practicalities of transport.

I own home insurance because there is a fair chance I will be the victim of burglary. I put this down to a mess of a society caused by inequality, division and exploitation rather than humans inherently needing to take from one another.

I pay my taxes towards a health system because I believe in the concept of taxation for the public good - I include myself as a contributor and beneficiary.

Life? Not interested. My spending is linked to living, not death.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Shooting the Nazi Bastards Dead as soon as they started coming for us. *EVERY* Jew should be well armed, if they learned ANYTHING from history.

Two options, then:

1) Allow hostility, division and suspicion to run riot......leading to misunderstanding and fear of the other group...leading to both taking up arms in acts of aggression/defence...leading to a lot of dead people and perpetuating the self-fulfilling prophecy of expecting danger leading to danger.

2) Get at the root of the problem. Encourage the spread of understanding, co-operation and mutual trust......leading to co-operation and trust, and no desire to take up arms against the other group......thus leading to a lot of living people. Whether or not this will work depends on your faith in humanity.

P.S. The Nazis weren't the only ones struggling with anti-semitism. Is the answer to attempt to shoot everyone or encourage education and understanding? What about today's bogeymen - the muslims.......would you rather encourage understanding in your countrymen or accept that marching into Iraq and triggering a killing frenzy is part of life's danger and the muslims need to arm themselves? I don't believe this aggression is doing anyone any good. Also, if this is all just inevitable and we're predestined to arm ourselves in acts of aggression and defence in response to danger, then why even bother chatting with people on this board about Iraq......isn't it futile based on your view of inherent danger, aggression and defence?

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 3/25/2007 5:55:23 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 147

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 6:05:55 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Which, is sort of disingenous, because of the slow nature of the marginalization of Jews between 1933 and 1938. At what point between 1933 and 1938 should an armed insurrection of Jews had occurred? And since Hitler DISARMED them, it would have been even harder.

And it's not like anyone making money off the Nazis, really cared about the Jews. Henry Ford didn't give a shit, and neither did Prescott Bush. ( Until that "Trading with the Enemy" conviction... )

In 1938, Headlines of "Jews Riot In Germany", would have been received as much attention as the headline "Muslims Riot in Turkey" would today. Little to none.

Which is, I guess, why I do not BELIEVE that ANYONE will come to our aid in the future, it's up to us, and we better keep our powder dry.

This assumes that people will continue to be hostile to one another. Co-operation, trust and understanding = no-one coming for anyone.

This is in no way an attempt to belittle the holocaust, but, the fact is, there have been world-wide acts of genocide and mass murder in the name of war and invasion. All generated by a lack of trust, exploitation and misunderstanding. In order to solve the problem, remove these factors. People arming themselves in acts of aggression and defence only serve to perpetuate the violence.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 3/25/2007 6:20:07 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 148

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 7:08:42 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

Actually, i'm troubled by a lot of what goes on in England, particularly the surveillance state items that Seatonstomb listed. The U.S. still has that historical and cultural link to England, and it's foolish to assume that we are immune from the kinds of things that the politicians are able to get away with there.

Believe me, you're not the only one. There are lot of things happening here impeding peoples' freedom.

I am surprised however that you don't think the same is happening in the US.

I could give you 3 examples of the top of my head. I'm sure a spot of digging 'round on the internet would unearth others.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to petdave)

Post #: 149

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 7:10:41 AM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Believe me, you're not the only one. There are lot of things happening here impeding peoples' freedom.

Makes it easier when the people are unarmed eh?

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 150

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 7:27:13 AM

petdave

Posts: 2479
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

Actually, i'm troubled by a lot of what goes on in England, particularly the surveillance state items that Seatonstomb listed. The U.S. still has that historical and cultural link to England, and it's foolish to assume that we are immune from the kinds of things that the politicians are able to get away with there.

Believe me, you're not the only one. There are lot of things happening here impeding peoples' freedom.

I am surprised however that you don't think the same is happening in the US.

I could give you 3 examples of the top of my head. I'm sure a spot of digging 'round on the internet would unearth others.

No worries... i'm pretty well-versed in the state of our own struggle to retain civil liberties

But uk.gov is definitely a few steps ahead, and nobody likes a pioneer.

As far as rioting (to sum up a bunch of other posts)... have you heard the expression "there's more of us, but who goes first?" A handful of armed men won't stop a large mob by threats alone... but if the National Guard or SWAT had laid out some belt-fed discipline (ref. Korean War, "human wave" vs. Ma Deuce), the political shit would have hit the fan.

...dave

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 151

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 7:56:39 AM

Jack45

Posts: 220
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline

Maze Prison which was in Northern Ireland was, at the time, the most secure facility in the world. Despite that the IRA managed to smuggle in 6 handguns and the inmates used these to effect an escape.

England is an island country and yet they cannot keep Beretta submachine guns as well as an amazing assortment of other firepower off the streets of London.

In our own country of America drugs are easily available in prisons and literally millions of people illegally enter the United States each year.

Gun control is for good people, it disarms the law-abiding person.
It is, in essence, victim disarmament.
Look to demographics for an understanding of violent crimes.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 152

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 8:17:47 AM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Believe me, you're not the only one. There are lot of things happening here impeding peoples' freedom.

Makes it easier when the people are unarmed eh?

Two ways of looking at this:

1) The government are getting away with this because they are spreading misinformation and propaganda and the people aren't educated enough to see through it.

2) The government are getting away with this because we don't have guns. You could then bolt on to this argument that around 30% of the British population understand what is happening as they are involved in peaceful protest - you could say that if these people had guns to threaten the government with, then it would all pan out fine.

On balance, I'll throw my lot in with 1 because I think 2 is flawed:

a) 30% is the not the majority. Plus, if the 70% stand by the government and take up arms in defence of what they think is right, then what? Just a load of people killing each other based on confusion and misunderstanding.

b) You have guns in the US. You are being subjected to the same government intrusion into your freedom. In other words, one of us has guns, the other doesn't, but neither of us can prevent the misunderstanding which is creating a climate where elements of our freedom can be taken from us.

The common denominator is the propaganda and a lack of understanding/education what freedom and civil liberty truly mean. Violence would only work if the government were physically coming for your property, but they don't need to do that because they can direct both the US and British populations, and in the process achieve everything they want, without resorting to violence.

Education is the solution and it has to be self-education, because the establishment aren't about to tell everyone how it is. The internet and available information is a good start. No wonder there are sections of the US government who are trying to keep a handle on it.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to FukinTroll)

Post #: 153

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 8:46:47 AM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline

I agree education is the solution. Many gun control activists dig up the stats on gun related injury/death but fail to list how many of those are legal lethal force.

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Post #: 154

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 8:50:59 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

Actually, i'm troubled by a lot of what goes on in England, particularly the surveillance state items that Seatonstomb listed. The U.S. still has that historical and cultural link to England, and it's foolish to assume that we are immune from the kinds of things that the politicians are able to get away with there.

Believe me, you're not the only one. There are lot of things happening here impeding peoples' freedom.

I am surprised however that you don't think the same is happening in the US.

I could give you 3 examples of the top of my head. I'm sure a spot of digging 'round on the internet would unearth others.

No worries... i'm pretty well-versed in the state of our own struggle to retain civil liberties But uk.gov is definitely a few steps ahead, and nobody likes a pioneer.

Fair enough, Dave. Believe it or not, many here think the US is far worse than Britain for thought control. Maybe you can't understand how some Britons would think like this. The point is: the people who run our countries tell the people what they want to hear through various media outlets, some subtle and some blatant - all the noble qualities that the Americans feel they have will be the same as us and the French and Germans and the rest - we'll all simply explain it from another angle. According to the British population, we're the upholders of democratic tradition, we're the liberated ones and the fair people and the supporters of the underdog, and if no one else can see this, then they just don't understand us.......I'm sure the French, Germans and the rest feel the same. From where I'm standing, this is no more than the establishment rallying their people behind the flag........aren't we great etc....let's go and spread democracy and loot in the process. The British empire were proficient in this regard, and from where I'm standing the American empire has taken the baton.

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

As far as rioting (to sum up a bunch of other posts)... have you heard the expression "there's more of us, but who goes first?" A handful of armed men won't stop a large mob by threats alone... but if the National Guard or SWAT had laid out some belt-fed discipline (ref. Korean War, "human wave" vs. Ma Deuce), the political shit would have hit the fan.

...dave

The mob need to relax and just have a beer or something instead of getting in everyone elses' face. If they looked at life as something to enjoy instead of attacking people, then maybe they'd settle down and let everyone go about their business?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to petdave)

Post #: 155

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 9:05:25 AM

petdave

Posts: 2479
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Fair enough, Dave. Believe it or not, many here think the US is far worse than Britain for thought control. Maybe you can't understand how some Britons would think like this. The point is: the people who run our countries tell the people what they want to hear through various media outlets, some subtle and some blatant

So is the theory that we have a more efficient political/media oligarchy, or that we're simply more succeptible to jingoism?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The mob need to relax and just have a beer or something instead of getting in everyone elses' face. If they looked at life as something to enjoy instead of attacking people, then maybe they'd settle down and let everyone go about their business?

That's certainly the case with some mob events (ugh... sporting event riots... where do these people come from?). Other times, maybe not... civil rights, labor... if folks aren't even getting their bread and circuses, what else are they to do?

...dave

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 156

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 9:35:23 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

So is the theory that we have a more efficient political/media oligarchy, or that we're simply more succeptible to jingoism?

Neither. The theory is in the part of the paragraph you didn't quote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

That's certainly the case with some mob events (ugh... sporting event riots... where do these people come from?). Other times, maybe not... civil rights, labor... if folks aren't even getting their bread and circuses, what else are they to do?

...dave

I agree with civil rights and labour, but they're a response to inequality. In a world of equality, co-operation and trust, people may just get their heads down and get on with life, without thinking someone down the street is out to get them.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to petdave)

Post #: 157

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 11:46:47 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Had 6 million Jews been armed in the 1930's history would read differently.
The right to keep and bare arms is one of our most important rights!
It guarantees all of our other rights.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 158

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 11:52:33 AM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

I give quotes from posts above.
Peace, cooperation, trust, understanding,love, goodwill towards all,democracy, tolerance, success not to say excellence for all, education for all, in fact any positive that anyone can think of FOR ALL.
When that happy state has been brought about Utopia will have finally arrived on the face of the Earth

Incidently I also believe in fairy tales.
So IMO any argument based on the perfectability of the human condition is nothing more than a load of old cobblers.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 159

RE: Effective Gun Control in England - 3/25/2007 12:01:24 PM

MyMasterStephen

Posts: 219
Joined: 8/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Had 6 million Jews been armed in the 1930's history would read differently.
The right to keep and bare arms is one of our most important rights!
It guarantees all of our other rights.

Bullshit. It guarantees nothing of the sort.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 160

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