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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 9:47:42 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

You keep asking what a win is.  There really isn't one.  Anymore than you "win" life.  You just keep going the best you can untill you die.  It would be nice if the people around the world who want to destroy liberal democracy and the world economic order were just one small nation led by one guy.  But they are not.  It would be great if they all wore uniforms, and had memos on exactly what they have done.

Now is liberal democracy and the world economic order worth fighting for?  That is the real question, actually 2 seperate yet related questions.  I say yes to both, though I want to qualify that I would like to see a lot of reform of the Economic order, which requires a stable enough order to reform it.  We are approaching Peak Oil, not as fast as the alarmists, but the day is coming.  When it hits we will require a very stable World economic system to convert to what ever comes next, or else there will be war and destruction on a never before seen scale.  And the World Economic system is based on oil and dollars.  Doesn't matter if you like it or not it is. 

The Wolrd economic system/capitalism will feed over 8 billion people tomorow.  and the next day.  and next week.  It will stop diseases, it will educate people.  There are 9 billion of us, so yes a billion are left out, but mostly in places that are not part of the World System, and the starvation is intentional.  Places like N korea, Sudan Zimbabwe.  If the system collapses, most of those 8 billion people are going to die, and starve.  IF we enter a Neo dark age, it will be a literal hell on earth for thousands of years.  You can say its cold hearted, but it is worth the lives of thousands of service people to prevent the death of billions and the end of civilization. 





I am not sure how to respond to this, luckydog1.

I promote feeding people.  I abhor violence against people.  I support life.

On the other hand, no matter how many drugs I take I cannot comprehend how anything the current administration has done can possibly be considered to support life.

Feel free to clarify.  I am more than satisfied with the things I personally do to make the world a better place, but I think the current nitwits in charge of the United States want to be sent to hell in a golden casket.

Or are too blind to see that their actions all amount to making reservations on the Hell Bus.

Sinergy


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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 9:50:51 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
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Status: offline 		honey,

I stand by what I wrote, you might care about YOUR boys but you clearly don't care about AMERICA's boys and girls in uniform or you wouldn't want to see their lives wasted over a poorly chosen and badly executed war that in no way serves this countries interests.  Which is pretty much the definition of cannon fodder bye the way.

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 10:02:58 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		"Perhaps the problem you are having with comprehension comes from the idea that Al Qaeda is some sort of overwhelming and omnipotent boogy man.  Jordan is a nation in the middle east that has a relatively weak government that controls a fairly large Shiite population.  Odds are fairly good that once Iran and Iraq become Shiitistan, they will convince and support the population of Jordan to overthrow the government and replace it with a hard-line anti-West government.  This will put most of Isreal's border on a hostile country.  Saudi Arabia is relatively pro-West, and since those in the newly created Shiitistan dont care about oil, and dont like the west, odds are fairly good that their Shiite population will rise in revolt as well.
 
The Kurds in Iraq will end up walling off the part of the country they control, and demand to be an independent country.  While I tend to support this, it will destabilize Turkey which has spent a lot of time oppressing their own Kurdish minority. "
 
My problem with comprehension?  I asked a simple question, and get an insult, and then a rambling screed of predictions, that hid from my question.  Is there some reason you are unable to answer?  You just wanted to insult me?  I guess that is what you are about.  The fact is that there is no Terror group that is in in better tactical/logistical state now than before Bushes war on terror started.  Feel free to cite a credible source that says otherwise.  Crappy has a boogie man/ ossama/ Suadi complex, not I. I was responding to his post line by line of his list.  I guess we can have a seperate thread on did Hezbollah win in Lebanon if you want.  I think they lost, and every day they do not strike they allow the others in Lebanon to get stronger.
 
I agree the nightmare scenario you proposed is possible, and the odds greatly increased by the vote in congress the opther day.
 
 
-------------------
quote:
ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Raising Iran from a pariah state into a major power again in the ME IF we run away , yes they will certainly become a major power.  But getting rid of thier government has been part of the plan all along.  Axis of Evil



Axis of Evil?

Please clarify what that actually means, as opposed to spewing a ridiculous talking point posited by uneducated right-wing talking heads


Well Sinergy, I stated that," But getting rid of thier government has been part of the plan all along.  Axis of Evil "   You don't understand that?  The plan all along has been to get rid of their government(Iran).  All along to get rid of thier Government( Iran), the plan has been.  To get rid of thier gov( Iran) all along has been the plan.  Thier gov( Iran) to get rid of all along has been the plan.   Do you get it yet, I don't think I can come up with any more ways to restate it.    Bush gave a big speech about it, sort of a short hand reference on my part.  Sorry I confused you.
 
 
For now
And yes I consider reality to be relevant to my politics.


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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 10:03:38 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

You keep asking what a win is.  There really isn't one.  Anymore than you "win" life.  You just keep going the best you can untill you die. 


I am sorry but the "best you can" for me doesn't involve fighting to install a muslim regime in an anti-western state that is pro-iranian.  We blew our chance for anything else a long time ago, no matter how long we stay now, the outcome is going to be bloody and about the same.  The differnce is if we get out now, a lot of American troops will still be a live and we just might save our economy.

quote:

  It would be nice if the people around the world who want to destroy liberal democracy and the world economic order were just one small nation led by one guy. 


Okay, let me see if I have this straight.  When the entire arab/muslim world united to destroy Israel, despite three or four tries they kept getting their asses handed to them.  So now that they are not united and in fact are heavily fractured and underground, they are a threat to the West?  Annoying yes, a threat to our existence?  Only if Republican's surrender out of fear of the alledged threat!!!

quote:

  When it hits we will require a very stable World economic system to convert to what ever comes next, or else there will be war and destruction on a never before seen scale.  And the World Economic system is based on oil and dollars.  Doesn't matter if you like it or not it is. 


Waiting till oil runs out to see "what ever comes next" is like saying, I will wait until I run out of air and then try and grow gills.  As for war about energy, what the fuck do you think Iraq is about?  Why do you think China is allowing us to borrow against our future?  So they can own it without having to fire a shot, that is why.  We are dumb, we spend money to go to war, they make money so they don't have to go to war.

As for oil and dollars, that isn't cast in stone.  It may be true today, we certainly took care of Saddam when he tried to switch to Euros, Iran is now trying it, if China can make Chavez feel bold enough, who knows what might happen.

Of course, if Raygun hadn't dismantled Jimmy Carter's energy plan, we wouldn't need Arab oil today and would be getting ready to get rich selling China and others our advanced energy technology instead of getting ready to outsource another 30 million jobs...

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 3/30/2007 10:05:41 PM >

(in reply to luckydog1)
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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 10:15:05 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Uh, this one really threw me.  You do realize that the money and most of the staff for 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia right?  You do realize Pakistan's role not only in 9/11 but in marketing nuclear technology to Iran and others?  You really should do some google searches on the UAE (I have never heard of the UEA) and Dubai.


this really sums you up crappy. 
You don't grasp that people of Saudi Arabia are not the same as the gov.  There are Saudi citizens who support Al queda.  Ossama is a half Saudi( his mom is Syrian).  He was also exiled and is wanted.  He is strategically meaningless now.  That People in Boston sent Money to the Irish does not mean that the Gov of the USA supported the IRA.  this really is basic set logic, and clearly you do not get it.  There was a COUP in Pakistan.  The old Gov sold Nuke material, and created and installed the Taliban in power in Afganistan.  The Musharef Gov has some infiltration by Radicals, but is literaly doing everything it can to eliminate them.  Its life or Death literaly for them.  I have never seen a claim of Pakistans role in 911, though I would imagine there must be some Pakistanis involved at some level.  That in no way implicates the current Non Democratic gov there however.  My knowledge of the Mideast goes much deeper than a few Google searches.  It figures you never heard of UAE.  You have an insanley simplistic view of the region and what is at stake, that is obviously no deeper than a few google searches and the Al franken Show.

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 3/30/2007 10:16:34 PM >

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 10:28:59 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Sinergy you seem to me to exemplify a sentiment I see on the American left often, Many times I have seen it said on these boards, and I want to apologize, if I am lumping you in wrongly, to the effect of "things could not be any worse".  But they really could.  If the oil stopped/system chrashed tomorow billions of people would be dead in a week, and life would be a bleak hell. 

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 10:36:27 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Crappy that you think the entire muslim world united to get rid of Isreal shows your utter ignorance of the region and geo politics in general. 

Please fill me in on Carter's magic advanced energy technology that we would be getting ready to sell to China? ??

China owns our future?

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 10:39:10 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		Lucky,

At least I can spell UAE, I was mocking your spelling of it as UEA...before you slam someone, at least make sure you have a grasp of what is going on.  As for the United Emirates and Pakistan's role...

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress04/lewis092904.pdf

quote:


The hijackers received funds from facilitators in Germany and the United Arab Emirates or directly from Khalid Sheikh Mohamed (KSM) as they transited Pakistan before coming to the United States. The plot cost the al Qaeda network approximately $400,000 – $500,000, of which approximately $300,000 passed through the hijackers’ established bank accounts in the United States.


quote:

   There was a COUP in Pakistan.  The old Gov sold Nuke material, and created and installed the Taliban in power in Afganistan.  The Musharef Gov has some infiltration by Radicals, but is literaly doing everything it can to eliminate them.  Its life or Death literaly for them. though I would imagine there must be some Pakistanis involved at some level.  That in no way implicates the current Non Democratic gov there however. 


Hey, we agree on something!  As for the rest, well I am sure you know your stuff, the above displays a better understanding than most.  My knowledge comes from many sources, some rather intimately involved as I have been in the arms business since I was a kid, others comes from extensive reading, some from just a grasp of human nature.  While I have never been I have many friends who conduct business of all sorts in the region so my knowledge while not direct is far from academic.  I think your view of the purity of Musharraf (it is spelled with two Rs, not one), UAE, and the Saudi's is a bit naive but at the same time, not all that far off base.

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 10:45:28 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		frigging nitpicking whiners.

Okay, the muslim world as united as they had ever been in recent history, heck they were more united than even Bush has managed to do which is saying a lot.

Iran of course wasn't involved under the Shaw, Indonesia wasn't invovled but the principle players certainly were.

This comming from a man who probably bitched when people didn't buy that Bush's "grand coallition" was very grand or much of a coallition. 

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 10:48:41 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
It would be nice if the people around the world who want to destroy liberal democracy and the world economic order were just one small nation led by one guy. 



Wha?  Someone fire King George?






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 10:51:32 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		UAE was a point on the transfer of money, so what ...you alleged that Pakistan was involved, both of their govs help us, and could hurt us very badly if they wanted to.  But I never espoused any level of Purity for them at all. 

Hey you want a gold star for spelling, who cares.

But you state Pakistan is our enemy.  They are not.  We desperatley need them.  Same goes for the Saudis.  I never stated they had any Purity.  Purity has no meaning in these matters at all.  Just more of your simplistic nonsense

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 10:55:21 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		Where is Osama hiding again?  Where are the Taliban surging from?

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 11:03:24 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Where is Osama hiding again?  Where are the Taliban surging from?


a little something that people do not know....

obl is NOT hiding!  he NEVER did hide.  at least not in the sense presented to us in the us. everyone over there on the border territories knows where he is literally at all times.   and they babble it amongst themselves because its family gossip because he is a hero fighting the great infidels!  That is why i hammer that point so hard LOL   and lucky dont even think about asking me for the source on that one cuz it will never happen LOL


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 11:07:01 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		No crappy, the absolute disunity of the Islamic world is why the Palestinians are in such awful shape.  It has allways been that way.  I realise this is way deeper than google searches or you childhood gun dealing days.

I don't know about any "Grand Coalition", never heard the phrase before, just more of the nonsense you spew instead of reality.  Bush talked about a "Coalition of the Willing", which included a lot of nations like Saudi Arabia that played large Quiet roles.

So you insult and call me a whiner, you are indeed a Master Debater Crappy.

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/30/2007 11:40:15 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
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Status: offline 		That the Palestinians have been pawns of countries like Jordan and Syria isn't news to anybody and has nothing to do with what the hell we were talking about.  I stated that the Muslim fanatics were not a threat to the West because the united Muslim world wasn't a threat to Israel and you wanted to quible over the meaning of "united" rather than deal with the concept as a whole. 

Either stay on point or you will earn a reputation like KY.

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/31/2007 12:49:33 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Your below quotes may have been an attempt at humour. If not, your knowledge is wide of the mark:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Undermining what few moderates were left in the ME.



This is playing into the hands of the right who would have the world believe that the Middle East is bursting at the seams with fundamentalists. It is not. Most are moderates and are far more concerned about fundamentalism than you or I - the reason being that they have to live with it. Yes, fundamentalism is on the rise because of the invasion, but saying there are very few moderates is like saying there are very few Bush opponents in the US. This is exactly what both sets of war mongerers are saying - all the arabs are fundamentalists, all the Americans are corrupt capitalists intent on raping resources. Far too simplistic.

You ask anyone who has actually been to the Middle East - there was a post on here a few months ago and those who have been overwhelmingly did not think that the Middle East is any more fanatical than anywhere else. I've spent quite a bit of time in the UAE and Oman and that is my conclusion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Overthrowing the one major government that did not support AQ
Overthrowing the one major government not run my Muslim fanatics



You could argue that The Yemen and Saudi is run by fanatics, but most aren't. The fundamentalist countries are mainly in Asia - Afghanistan (The Nothern Alliance with their appalling human rights record, so the US government help them gain power), Pakistan is debatable.

People have to get away from this cultural nonsense that the Middle East is "fanatical". It is this sort of right-wing propaganda that helped lay the foundations for the invasion in the first place. Labelling groups as extreme, fundamentalist, fanatical etc is futile - people are the same the world over, a minority of idiots and the rest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Destroyed America's high moral standing



The US didn't have a high moral standing. If I were to take a rough estimate in Britain, I'd say 30% of Britons see your government, and the previous governments, as a threat to world stability. Their constant meddling in other peoples' business has finally led to the inevitable i.e. in serious danger of getting seriously out of hand, but then, at some point, it was always going to go arse over tit because sooner or later someone will take the bait and fight back. Someone was talking about looking in the mirror on another thread - well, many people around the world see your government as morally bankrupt and ours not far behind them.

The US government has now backed itself right into a corner - they can't allow the Iranians to have nukes because it would be the beginning of the end of US control over the region, but they can't really invade Iran (although they will choose this option) because they're overstretched and potent competitors are watching on the sidelines - Russia, China etc. 

A wise government would withdraw from the Middle East and redirect the resources to scientific and technological innovation (and lead the world in this regard).


< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 3/31/2007 1:11:22 AM >

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/31/2007 1:06:05 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Axis of Evil?

Please clarify what that actually means

quote:



lol, if it wasn't so pathetic it would be hilarious.


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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/31/2007 1:24:11 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

the absolute disunity of the Islamic world is why the Palestinians are in such awful shape. 



What you have to realise is that you're using a Western measure of "awful shape" and applying it to the Middle East. It is an opinion based on Western values. You'll point to beheadings and the like, they'll point to electrocution, invasions etc.

They have a different way of doing things. They're not as materialistic as the West. They like Kings and Sheiks etc.

If you were being totally honest and reflecting on the US government, then you would have to hold your hands up and say those people really are in awful shape - serving corporate greed and helping them impose their will for market opportunities (killing people in the process) - now that is awful shape.

Why can't you accept that a nation has the right to do its own thing without your beak in the way and your ill-conceived, Western biased views of what constitutes awful shape? Aren't you one of the "individual freedom" crowd - why aren't you extending this notion to the sovereignty of the Middle East?





_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/31/2007 1:33:28 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Crappy, I pointed out that your premise was false.  The Arab Muslim world was not uninted to destroy Isreal, ever for a moment.  I am not quibling over Iran or any such nonsense.  They did not work together, the had a huge un-unified force, under a bunch of different commanders, all with the main objective of Being the new Saladin.  Not the objective of helping the Palestinian people. 
But beyond that, there is more than one kind of threat.  The ability to cut off the oil and kill billions of people, and destroy the worlds economy is a threat. 

If pointing out that your premise is nonsense and based on a superficial undertanding of the issues gets me put in some catagory of yours, w--k on it all night.

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RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! - 3/31/2007 1:43:57 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Northern Gent your problem is you pretend an argument for me, then argue against it.  Very weak debating I must say.  I would actually point to the recent sewage containment break in Gaza, which on a per capita basis was a worse disaster than New Orleans, as an example of "awful shape".  Several Women and Children were drowned in untreated sewage.  Hundreds of families( that makes thousands of people) lost everything they had and thier homes.  These conditions were created as Arafat ran the place and was in the words of the EU, "the Sole legitimate leader of the Palestinian People".  Pre 911 that was one of Europes biggest complaints with Bush, that he would nto say Arafat was the sole legitimate leader.  Did you NG agree with that notion?  Arafat was a crook who died with billions looted from his racket of saving his people.  His familly lives like kings in Europe while his people lived below earthen dams of sewage.  Of course he was keeping all his stolen wealth in France, so I guess that makes it ok right?  Paying taxes to the good old EU.

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